Placing a lien on a horse

[js]

Do you know for fact the previous owner actually has the registration papers? They may not have given them to you because they don’t have them. You sure the horse was legally theirs to begin with when it was freely given to you?

Otherwise, I don’t get the concept of what you are trying to accomplish by getting a lien on a horse you supposedly own; especially without going thru other means first, i.e. contacting the breed registry and asking them what they suggest. Hiring a lawyer and having a legal letter sent to the previous owner requesting release of the registration papers. However, since the horse was a freebie, you might also be setting yourself up for some fallout from the previous owner. What if they claim the horse is only being leased and now want it back since there is no paperwork or contracts. How are you going to prove otherwise?

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=Calamber;7978946]
The last sentence is nonsense, all I can say is prove it by real documentation. There is no good reason not to give a horses papers with it. All you are doing is giving the horse less of a chance, if it gets in trouble, for someone to find out it’s history, and perhaps someone who may just want to save the animal. The rest of that is just malarkey and someone’s poor excuse. I have never heard such nonsense in my life.[/QUOTE]

And there is no good reason not to pay a trainer or breeder for the time & effort they put into developing a horse. I’ve seen too many people want papers on a “rescue” but wouldn’t even think about buying the same horse from a reputable source.

OP says the her horse is bred out the whazoo, but doesn’t think enough of it to offer any $. Offer the guy $500 for the papers; Where else are you going to get a show horse for $500?

I thought the lawsuit thing was far fetched, but apparently he’s heard of it happening through the grapevine. Guy is older, why should he risk anything, especially for someone who wouldn’t part with <$5K for a made horse? Free, delivered with years of baggage, they’ll take.:no: Sorry, I don’t think enabling cheapskates helps the horse business.

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=HorseShwBrat;7974209]
when I say he is an especially nasty brand of toxic pond scum, I’m seriously understating matters[/QUOTE]
And yet you are the one contemplating committing fraud to place a lien on your own horse saying it is his and claiming back board and bills

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=red mares;7978927]
If you buy a horse from my trainer he will happily stand behind his horses and give you the papers. He’s given some horses that weren’t cut out to be show horses away without papers in the past. He’s had a few people come back to him, after buying one of those horses from Some Where, looking for papers. He’ll tell them politely to pack sand.

Given that he doesn’t know where the horse has been or how it’s been handled, he won’t stand behind it & doesn’t want the liability of having trained it at some time in the past.* Most times it’s been someone he knows asking for papers - someone that could have bought the horse from him years before but wouldn’t. I don’t blame him one bit.

If he gives one away for little or nothing w/o papers, it’s still a well broke horse. If you think you want to show in the future, pay him for the time & effort that he put in it, & he will gladly transfer the papers. His horses are fairly priced; if you want to show, hand over the $.

*He does know of cases where a trainer was sued after a new owner got hurt, despite there being 2 or 3 owner between that time & the current owner’s purchase. Who needs a nuisance lawsuit?[/QUOTE]

The only time I’ve ever heard of this happening is when the original owner sold a horse for $1 without disclosing that it had a history of bucking people off and stomping them. The horse being sold without papers would not have prevented this since the name on the bill of sale was proof of the horse’s previous ownership.

I have occasionally seen a non-breeding quality horse given away or sold cheaply without papers in order to discourage breeding, which is understandable.

[Calamber]

It does not discourage breeding, check the feedlots, literally thousands of horses without papers, mares, foals, breeding stock etc. On the legal aspect, it has nothing to do with papers or not, there is no way that there was someone charged with negligence, fraud, or whatever, 3 owners later. Show the case, not the fourth party gossip.

[Shammy_Davis]

This is a very interesting thread. Can’t recall when it wasn’t an issue in my almost 5 decades in the industry. You’d think that someone, some how, or somewhere would come up with a good solution, but a horse is personal property and there lies the rub.

Gumtree is correct. What works in one state does not necessarily work in another as it relates to the OP.

I did come across these two links that might be helpful. The first link makes some comparisons though I must admit I didn’t have the energy to read the entire paper.

http://equinelaw.alisonrowe.com/uploads/file/Comparison%20of%20Equine%20Liens%20(Part%201%20of%202).pdf

http://www.fosterswift.com/assets/pdf/blogpost_256.pdf

And to think, “used car dealers” normally take the biggest hit on honesty in the market place.:lol: According to this thread “used car dealers” may have moved up a couple of notches just above politicians and horse dealers.

[Mozart]

I get what you are trying to do but it is bass ackwards and unlikely to work unless it just rattles the original owner enough to give you the papers, which they may not have ever had or have lost or whatever. It is not a lien scenario no matter how you stretch it. What happens if, when you go to register the lien, the registrar asks for a copy of the boarding contract? I think your first option should be to go back to the registry and find out if there are any options at all to get papers re-issued. Don’t just talk to the first person on the phone, go up the line. Offer a sworn Affidavit that the horse was given to you, Affidavits of other who were present. Ask what would satisfy them that you are now the owner of the horse. Does this registry DNA test? Also, as to the question of why would someone not give papers, it used to be pretty common to get OTTB’s without JC papers if the trainer did not want the horse to be raced again. At least it was around here.

[Laurierace]

Suing for breach of contract seems a lot more likely to work than your idea.

[Mozart]

Also, consider the time and effort involved in your plan (and the fact that it is a complicated subterfuge). Seriously, while it may suck ethically, wouldn’t it be easier to offer the owner some cash to “find” the papers and be done with it??

[kcmel]

@red mares;7979139

OP says the her horse is bred out the whazoo, but doesn’t think enough of it to offer any $. Offer the guy $500 for the papers; Where else are you going to get a show horse for $500?

Good idea. Money talks.

[Dressagelvr]

Yep, for less than legal fees, you can probably buy the papers. Swallow your bad feelings and offer some coin.

[csaper58]

O. P., How long have you had the horse? Have you paid for a Coggin’s Test for it? Is it micro-chipped? In many states who ever is listed as owner on the Coggin’s test is assumed to be the legal owner. If you have more than one test so much the better. Can you bide your time, do a test every six months for a year? Maybe that could be the proof of ownership to your breed association?

[RockinHorse]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7980191]
Yep, for less than legal fees, you can probably buy the papers. Swallow your bad feelings and offer some coin.[/QUOTE]

And I would include a request for a bill of sale at the same time.

[HappyTalk]

The only reason I can think of to not pass the papers on is that the horse is not actually the breed that it is being represented as being. How many unpapered “warmbloods” are actually appendix QHs or some other mixed breeding? I have a large, flashy QH that almost everyone mistakes for a WB.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Shammy Davis;7979786]
This is a very interesting thread. Can’t recall when it wasn’t an issue in my almost 5 decades in the industry. You’d think that someone, some how, or somewhere would come up with a good solution, but a horse is personal property and there lies the rub.[/QUOTE]

Because then the breeders couldn’t hold papers to be an “especially nasty brand of toxic pond scum” and a lot of those breeders run the associations. I don’t personally know the OP or the situation but I know the breed and unfortunately, power struggles over particularly nice, but without papers run of the mill, horses are not all that uncommon. It’s not like she can give it a new name and enter it in a jumping class. With this horse’s particular skill set, papers are what get you through the in gate.

[gumtree]

Checking back on this thread to see why it has gotten so many replies and reads.

I see that the rest of the story had come out. My comments were based on the assumption this was your run of the mill no the owner has done a “runner” left the horse with due to outstanding board bills.

Not sure why the OP didn’t explain in better detail to begin with. Changes things a lot IMO.

This is another perfect example of getting things in writing. There is no such thing by and large as a “hand shake” agreement in the eyes of the law. Every detail should be spelled out and agreed to in writing. Especially when it comes to “horse business” for free or for money. If a disagreement/dispute should come up legal recourse is much easier and cheaper to sort out when details are in writing. The legal system has little to no understanding of what is “usual and normal” when it comes to “horse trading”. Without a detail agreement one or the other is going to have to rely and pay for “expert witnesses”.

When I have done a “free lease” the contract/agreement is a number of pages long. That “free lease” horse may shoot up the ladder and become a big “talking horse”. You never know. So I deal with prize money, gifts ie tack etc, “intellectual rights” advertising, etc. I leave nothing vague.

Now with the details fully explained I don’t think putting a “lien” on the horse is the correct course of action. Without a written agreement I don’t think it can be done. At least not one that would withstand a legal challenge. IMO the OP should look into pursuing a remedy in small claims court. Put a dollar amount for expenses, time and effort. I would go for the max which in most small claims court is $5,000. State that the full value of the horse is predicated on the OP being in possession of the horses registration papers. The OP took possession of the horse with the understanding the papers “passed” with the horse. Possibly state that the OP is willing to settle in full if the papers are signed over. Or save that part until after the suit is put in motion. People do not have to or need to use an attorney to fill suite. Unless, in most states the suite is being filed by a business.

[red_mares]

Tell ASHA you rescued him, pay $200 for the DNA & get new papers. Or pay the previous owner to get the papers. Either way you’re going to have to pay, and it will be easier than coming up with some far-fetched legal case.

I would have presented the former owners with the transfer papers & a check for the fees when I picked up the free horse or provided the paperwork to the last owner with in 60 days. Please tell me you didn’t expect the former owner to pay for the transfer.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=red mares;7979139]
And there is no good reason not to pay a trainer or breeder for the time & effort they put into developing a horse. I’ve seen too many people want papers on a “rescue” but wouldn’t even think about buying the same horse from a reputable source.

OP says the her horse is bred out the whazoo, but doesn’t think enough of it to offer any $. Offer the guy $500 for the papers; Where else are you going to get a show horse for $500?

I thought the lawsuit thing was far fetched, but apparently he’s heard of it happening through the grapevine. Guy is older, why should he risk anything, especially for someone who wouldn’t part with <$5K for a made horse? Free, delivered with years of baggage, they’ll take.:no: Sorry, I don’t think enabling cheapskates helps the horse business.[/QUOTE]

Spitefulness is so very unattractive.

Enabling people who choose not to market to a better quality buyer and are unable to attract and finalize that higher dollar sale; but instead cut their losses and sell ‘half a horse’ unregistered, then deny the sale is no better than your scenario.

In fact, while anyone can sue anyone for just about anything, winning a ‘training lawsuit’ on a former 3 owner back trainer who never ‘guaranteed’ any behavior of the horse and given the known unpredictable and inherent danger of equestrian activity is most unlikely.
Can you say countersuit for damages?

On the other hand I would vote for negotiating to see if former owner will meet with new owner at a notary and sign transfer and bill of sale for a cash fee.
And pay the fee/ transfer before witnesses.

Dealing with people with different views on the horse business is just part of buying and selling horses. New owner failed to get this done at time of taking posession of the horse, so now they are paying.
Learning curve.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=red mares;7981412]
Tell ASHA you rescued him, pay $200 for the DNA & get new papers. Or pay the previous owner to get the papers. Either way you’re going to have to pay, and it will be easier than coming up with some far-fetched legal case.

I would have presented the former owners with the transfer papers & a check for the fees when I picked up the free horse or provided the paperwork to the last owner with in 60 days. Please tell me you didn’t expect the former owner to pay for the transfer.[/QUOTE]

Has ASHA finalized this rule?
Used to be they did not rule ‘possession of bill of sale’ from other than the last recorded owner on the papers as a legal reason to transfer papers on a horse?

Surely there is some legal context appended?
Appreciate a clear update.

This is the last I heard::
“EWC is working to set policy within the ASHA and the American Saddlebred Registry so that horses that have been separated from their papers and subsequently seized, adopted through a rescue, or sent to auction, can be identified and have their papers returned to them.”

None of which applies to a horse given away or moving through a chain of owners without paper transfer.

Thanks

[CA_ASB]

ASHA has not finalized the rule. We (EWC) are working on it to spare lawsuits. And we are specifically staying away from situations like this, where, sorry OP, it becomes a “he-said” “she-said” and easily contested. To protect the registry, sorry, you either need a signed transfer (negotiate a payment and get that), or a court order that declares you the owner of record - thus freeing up the Registry to sign the papers over to you.