I know this was talked about in another thread somewhere recently (maybe the hair testing thread?), but thought the article deserved its own thread. The comments on FB were a bit surprising to me - all of the ones I saw were very much for the limitations, there was no one saying they were too strict. 10 jumping classes in one week and no more than 4 in one day were the limits proposed.
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10 classes for a hunter is very normal. That would be a warm up division with a pro, plus a division with a junior or amateur, and then a classic.
I’ve done leases where it’s limited to 9 over fences and 2 under saddle classes in a week as well.
Jumpers are obviously a completely different conversation. No jumper should be doing that many classes in a week, I don’t care if it’s at .80m or whatever. With jump offs there can be up
to 16 jumps in one class, and if you do two you’re up to the 4 hunter classes in a day number.
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Because they aren’t even slightly strict. That’s still a heck of a lot of jumping, especially if the rounds are not back-to-back and they are doing 10 warm ups as well. Add in this kind of heat and I’d say they aren’t strict enough tbh.
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Should have clarified - I don’t think they are too strict (as someone who mostly rides in Jumper classes, I have never done near 10 OF in a week). I was just surprised at the lack of any pushback from anyone, as there is usually plenty of it in any sort of conversation about class limits.
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There was an earlier article in TPH, or at least its FB, that took the opposite tack. That may have been the one linked in the other thread as the one linked above only came out yesterday.
Here’s a link to the earlier article.
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Totally on board with limitations. The blowback is going to come from the professionals who benefit financially and attract new business from riding clients’ horses in multiple divisions. It’s very common to see a pro show a horse in the conformation division as well as the high performance division plus a derby (3 rounds), before the non-pro shows the horse in jr/amateur divisions plus a classic. That’s potentially 9 pro rides OF and 4 jr/ama rides OF and 3 US. Add to that the lunging & schooling plus the current mixing & stacking of drugs daily. Horse show management will complain the number of entries will be reduced thus reducing their profit margin. Entries fees will go up etc. This scenario has evolved over decades and “the horse comes first” has fallen by the wayside.
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I don’t know who that person is but this may be their first flirtation with critical thinking.
Horses do not need to do three divisions at a show. Every division does not need 3 o/f classes. A rule limiting the number of classes does not need to be a single blanket approbation for all divisions and temperatures. These are not immutable laws of nature that we mere humans must work around like, say, a warming climate or the conservation of momentum.
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Greed will be the downfall of this sport. Too many people running it like a high-profile business, instead of the treating it like a sport with real animals.
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If you don’t know Robin Greenwood, or anyone else posting here, you are out of line commenting on their thought processes. You may disagree, as is your right, but everyone has the right to express their opinion and I hope you will respect that and ditch the personal assessments.
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It is a poorly thought out and written argument and she published it for public consumption in a clear attempt to sway people’s opinion on a possible rule change that might impact her business. I am in no way out of line pointing that out.
Everyone else is really tired of the hunter people right now. It’s time for them to pipe down when it comes to fighting common sense horse welfare rules.
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I will say Robins business doesn’t benefit from horses doing a number of classes, she doesn’t ride, and it’s all ponies. Robin though, is a very good horsewoman and very good at what she does.
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This 100%
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I have so many thoughts on this, a lot of them unpopular. I don’t think there should be a blanket class limit. One reason, as Robin points out, is that it implies any less is has been endorsed by USEF. It means that situations where a horse is truly overshown and overworked, but technically within the rules, will be overlooked.
A horse doing 12 classes one time at one show isn’t what we should be focused on. Trainers who routinely are having horses do a large amount of classes is the issue. What I think would be actually useful is if USEF used an algorithm to flag trainers who repeatedly have horses showing in a large number of classes. Given that results are all part of USEF’s system, it seems like it would be possible to have something that generated a report of all trainers who had multiple horses showing in more than 10 (or however many) classes every month. Then have officials internally review the most egregious offenders and potentially have them face fines, suspensions, etc.
Trainers should have leeway to make decisions that benefit their horses, but also worry someone is looking over their shoulder when they are letting horses regularly compete in 15+ classes. Yes, trainers could get around it by having one groom sign for some horses and another sign for others (just as some trainers already do to avoid facing repercussions if a horse tests positive). But still, I think a more holistic approach to looking at a trainer’s pattern of over showing is going to be a better approach than a blanket limit.
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She has an opinion but no ability to clearly convey her thoughts logically. She literally was throwing every piece of logical spaghetti at the wall, creating a random mash of concepts only to end with a very vague solution. In the end, the piece is pretty much, “my dog does this, and my fish does this, and my brother is a jerk, did the sun just blink, that’s why we should get ice cream.”
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My old hunter (I had sold him with a buy back provision - thank god), did 19 3’6” hunter classes and equitation (2 pro divisions) in one week at Tbird years ago. I got him back after a year off because they could not get him sound again. That was 5 years ago. He’s living the good life, totally sound and ridden a few times a week on the flat. This was with a BNT who is a “R” judge. There absolutely needs to be class limits. At that point in that horse’s career, the AT was gaining experience (2 pro divisions remember) at the expense of the horse’s soundness. So absolutely there should be class limits because people forget that horses have limits and being at a show is in and of itself, exhausting for them. Science has shown that they are stressed all the way to the end of the show. Why? Because they, like all animals have territories and shows are out of their comfort range. I can’t recall where I saw the study but it was looking at show horses who were on the road a lot. Too many of us seem to forget that just because we can’t see, or misinterpret the signs from the horse doesn’t mean that all is well. Jay Duke and SafeHorse are pushing for class limits. I completely support his efforts.
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19 classes at 3’6 is truly appalling. I’m glad he got to live out his years with you.
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For what if it’s not against the rules?
Remember when you could point chase without limit and people would go to multiple shows per day on the weekends? That was a lot of the justification for the mileage rule which has not worked out well for the average competitor or the sport. If you want to ban an action, just go ahead and ban it. Don’t try to be clever about it.
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There are already rules in place for horse welfare that are violated by excessively competing a horse. My point is that I don’t think we need a bright line rule. Its not a matter of being clever for the sake of it - its being thoughtful to the actual repercussions of a rule.
Literally every other horse organization I can think of has a bright line rule. USEF needs it badly. It can be flexible depending on the height or the temperature or whatever but it is needed. And it needs to apply to the unrated divisions too.
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I thought it was conveyed quite logically.
Point 1: A ceiling implies any fewer classes is always acceptable, which is not true.
Point 2: A bright line rule will apply uniformly to every situation, with no room for nuance.
Point 3: A bright line rule takes away the trainer’s discretion to make educated decisions for their charges.
Point 4: Acknowledges over competing is an issue, and highlights the responsibility of trainers to act ethically and put horsemanship above profit.
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