Brightline rules are not flexible. That is the whole point - it is uniformly applied with no room for flexibility. If you want a rule that is flexible for height or temperature, that is not a bright line rule.
That is not what it means at all. You seem to be confusing a blanket rule with what Iâm proposing which is a set of bright line rules that would apply to specific circumstances.
Typical USEF member thread, more concerned with being seen to agree with perceived authority figures than actually improving the sport or even improving their own situation within the sport. Or even thinking about the latter. Or acknowledging that major change and improvement is a possibility.
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âA bright-line rule is an objective rule that resolves legal questions in a straightforward, predictable manner. Because bright-line rules determine outcome entirely based on objective factors, they best allow parties to conduct their affairs in ways that wonât result in lawsuits at the cost of a lack of flexibility when dealing with individual nuances. This lack of flexibility can lead to what many consider inequitable outcomes.â
I literally work with bright line rules every day for my job.
You might have more luck in this thread if you engaged in an actual constructive dialogue about the pros and cons of the things people are raising, instead of just resorting to personal attacks.
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Itâs fairly difficult to have constructive dialogue with people who refuse to acknowledge that you can have more than one rule about a topic and it does not have to be one-size-fits-all across more than one sport that all happen to involved horses.
Rule X: Max number of classes per day. This includes warmup rounds. In the case of any conflict the more restrictive limit applies.
X.1. Rules related to height
- X.1.a .No more than 4 o/f classes per day at 2â or under.
- X.1.b. No more than 3 at 3â6" or under.
- X.1.c. No more than 2 over 3â6"/ 1.1m.
X.2. Temperature: when temperatures are over 85F horses may only do 6 o/f classes per week. This rule does not replace daily limits based on height.
Does that help you understand?
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That is not a bright line rule. I think a rule like the one you have drafted is probably more palatable, but impossible to enforce.
Yikes!!! So glad he is back with you.
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Unbelievable! Iâm glad you have him now.
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It most certainly is a brightline rule, itâs absolutely unambiguous. Itâs not a blanket rule.
Itâs extremely easy to enforce, you simply arenât allowed enter more than the appropriate number of classes. EVERY other horse sport already has versions of this rule. Try to enter the same horse in 4 FEI classes in one day and see what happens.
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Unambiguity has nothing to do with whether something is a bright line rule.
Who is going to enforce it? Who will retroactively check the weather for the zip code in which the horse showed against the days the horse showed? Who will go through all the results received from shows to count how many classes were shown at X height, how many at Y height, how many at Z height?
The biggest problem with class limit enforcement is that it is retroactive. A horse could be entered in 55 classes and show in 3 - you canât tell until the horse is done showing. And there is zero chance the horse show office has the time or resources to monitor and report to USEF.
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Dressage limits the number of classes a day a horse can be entered in. Very easy. If a horse canât be entered in more than n number of classes OF in a day, that should be that. Would that not be possible in the hunters?
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There should be a limit. WHEN will we actually consider the welfare of a horse?
A h/j farm in Ohio screwed up a horse showâs computer system when many of their horses had so many classes, they had to assign 2 numbers.
Every equitation class, every hunter section and every jumper class (within zone rules and horse abilities). We lost count at the class numbers. Pretty nice grey horse actually lived at the ingate. Maybe 25-30 classes each day, plus schooling.
Their tack room always has rows of ribbons. Gee, I wonder why.
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Many venues, especially if they are going to host FEI have required weather stations on site.
With communized entries it is not too difficult to code that rule into the entry system. While some folks may have problems (a likely minority), they can be handled on a case by case basis.
Iâm not sure what horse shows you go to, but the A shows I attend have class lists 24 hours in advance. I still have to pay the entry, even if I do t show. You last point makes no sense.
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Have you ever heard of a computer? All the entries are in a database, everything you say is impossible would be trivially easy.
Also we managed to do it just fine by hand when doing schooling show entries where, yes, we also had a class limit. We just⊠counted them. If someone wanted to add we verified they were under the limit on our index cards (Iâm aging myself here). Itâs not that hard.
A horse could be entered in 55 classes
No it could not. It could only be entered up to the limit. If you change classes you need to drop one.
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Every A show I have done you can scratch a class day of and get a refund (with the exception of a special class like a classic or derby), as long as the division hasnât started. Itâs not uncommon at all to add 3 classes for a day, do one, and scratch the rest.
And itâs great that FEI shows have weather stations or whatever. Your local C show (or whatever theyâre called now) absolutely does not.
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Your rule is about how many classes a horse âmay do.â Not may enter. As drafted, your own proposal absolutely does not limit how many classes a horse can ENTER. Only how many they can âdo.â
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How do you manage this?
When I show in the hunters I have to add all my classes before 5pm the day before. So I enter anything I might want to do the next day. Then depending on how my horse does, how late the division does, my mood, the weather, I will scratch the remainder of the classes (as long as I do so before the division ends).
I might be entered in 6 or 9 classes but I generally just do 3.
Iâm not saying there shouldnât be limits, but with the add scratch nature of hunter shows this can be difficult.
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The way ALL other horse shows and athletic competitions do it? You enter what you intend to compete in up to the limit. If you change your mind you go over to the office (or use the app) and change your entries. They check the total number before letting you enter anything else (or the app does it automatically).
I had no idea people entered every class and only showed up for a few, no wonder the hunter ring takes forever and no-one knows when they go. That is madness. I canât think of a single other sport I have ever been involved in that letâs you do that, including other horse sports. Iâm pretty sure all affiliated SJâing in Europe is 2 classes per day, unaffiliated makes their own rules but I think most are 3 or limited to height bands, which automatically limits you to 2-3 classes.
My local fun run group has an app for entries btw. And no it doesnât let you enter all the races. We have the tech.
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What have you done to improve the sport? Being a âright fighterâ on a COTH site doesnât count.
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I donât show in the hunters. I do volunteer my time quite a lot. Iâm guessing more than most for general horse sports tbh.
The hunter people need to get their house in order, thatâs the bottom line. I would be very supportive of breaking show jumping off under itâs own governing body, like most countries, and I think thatâs getting more and more popular.
And let me ask you a question- why do you think itâs so important people be allowed to show in as many classes as they want? Why do you oppose limits for horse welfare? Itâs clear they are needed.
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Who said that people should be allowed to show in as many classes as they want?
You have no idea how HJ shows work so you might not be best equipped to suggest changes. Several people have tried to explain that.
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