Plaid Horse Article - Class Limits

[Amberley]

I have been showing in the jumpers on and off since the 90s. At one point up to the 1.45m. I also rode professionally for two businesses in the US back in the day (during which I did show in the hunters, including the open working). And as stated above I helped RUN schooling shows for quite a few years. I know how it works. I know none of us every entered every class though.

People are deflecting to attacking me instead of explaining why they oppose a simple rule to improve horse welfare that many people in this thread have agreed is badly needed. We had a limit at our schooling shows because the 4H kids would enter every single class if we didn’t.

[fivestrideline]

@Amberley

I had no idea people entered every class and only showed up for a few

To be fair, this has been this way since forever. It’s obvious you are quite a bit removed from the rated hunter/jumper show scene and the reality of these shows.

I’m all for class limits. I don’t think it would be hard to allow add/scratch and also add a fine and warning system to the owner and/or rider should a particular horse go over the limit. (I haven’t really thought about who should receive the fine beyond the fact that fines to the trainers clearly aren’t effective for drugging, so they likely won’t be for class limits.) No one wants to pay for classes they didn’t do, and shows obviously want their money so they’re pretty good at tracking what classes an exhibitor actually did.

Just spitballing here, but perhaps a warning and fine for first offense, set down the horse for X weeks at second offense (plus a fine), etc. Tie the set-down to the USEF number of the horse so it can’t just be leased or “sold” to get around the set-down. Sorry, Pookie can’t do Finals because you jumped him too many classes at multiple shows . Sorry, no one wants to lease him until after the set-down is up because you jumped him too many classes at multiple shows. That’s not an accident, and it’s not a grey area like overdose of legal meds.

I have similar thoughts about drug offenses, actually, as going after the trainers’ checkbooks and client happiness by fining the owners and preventing Pookie from competing is likely the only way to force a change.

[Amberley]

See my post above. I used to show a lot. I rode professionally after my junior years here for a while. I have also shown in other countries. I am still good friends with multiple professionals in the US, some of whom I have known for many years. I was at multiple A shows this year helping out. They do not do the enter and scratch thing, admittedly they all focus on the jumpers.

The way the class limit is enforced elsewhere is that you cannot enter the class. If you go in and try to ride anyway you are rung out and if you argue you get kicked off the grounds. That’s what would, or at leas should, happen in FEI run classes at US shows so people are perfectly capable of understanding it and following the rules.

People might have to change the way they do things but that is actually possible.

[neigh]

Never did I ever say I feel people should show in as many classes as they want. Please, if you cannot quote me directly, don’t make something up.

[Amberley]

So do you oppose it? How do you think it should be instituted?

[kaya842]

@enjoytheride

When I show in the hunters I have to add all my classes before 5pm the day before. So I enter anything I might want to do the next day. Then depending on how my horse does, how late the division does, my mood, the weather, I will scratch the remainder of the classes (as long as I do so before the division ends).

I think this practice is the crux of more than one issue. Seriously - why can’t we do entries like dressage and eventing where they are due 2 weeks (more or less) prior to competition date? (“It’s the way we’ve always done it” isn’t really the response I’m looking for - is there a reason??) Doing so would give the office (or software) plenty of time to check horse vs limits and put out a more accurate schedule with, dare I suggest it, ride times. AFAIK, you can’t last minute enter a division or class at a dressage or eventing show, but you can scratch. I know horses can be different day to day but if two other disciplines have it figured out where they don’t need to enter multiple levels/ divisions to sort it out, I think we can too.

[alterGS]

I’m all for class limits (and I don’t think technology is so far behind we couldn’t calculate classes actually completed vs. entered/scratched), but I’d also like to see show limits. I’d rather see one horse do 10 1.20m classes at a single show a few times a year, than the same horse do 5 a show for 30+ weeks.

The 12 weeks of WEF blows my mind as someone who rarely does more than 5 weeks of showing in a whole year. I’m obviously in another world and I’m sure these horses are loved and cared for beyond belief, but if these horses only have so many jumps in them, it feels like one would be using them up rather quickly.

[MHM]

@alterGS

The 12 weeks of WEF blows my mind

I don’t know anybody who shows the same horse all 12 weeks of WEF. Maybe there are people who do, but I don’t know any of them.

Most horses will do a week or two, then have a week off, then another week or two, then a week off, or whatever works best for the horses and their owners’ schedules.

Which is not to say the whole barn has the week off. They will rotate other horses in to show those weeks.

But as far as one individual horse doing 12 weeks straight there? I think that’s pretty uncommon.

[Peggy]

Typically, as others have noted, at the bigger HJ shows you can enter classes up to some time the afternoon before (4-ish) and then scratch at any point before the class starts (if you want a refund) or do a gate scratch or just not bother once the class starts. Thus, people are encouraged to enter anything they might conceivably want to show in as it will be possible to scratch, but not add, the day off. Noting that sometimes they will let you add the day of if they’re running on time, someone has scratched to make up for your add, and you’re pleasant.

Why wait until the “last moment”?

Sometimes you have to send in your entries (intent to show) weeks or even a month or more before the show and you may not know what you’re going to do or how much you’re going to do. Or 100% that you’re going to show and sometime once you’ve entered classes it pushes you into a place of more-limited refunds.

Yes, there is an expectation of not entering specific classes until the beginning of the show or the day before you show.

If the horse is showing with a pro before the kid or amateur shows it, it may be desirable to have the horse show in the same ring or rings the kid/amateur will show in. Sometimes classes get moved from ring to ring for the next day after the 4 pm entry limit and people want to hedge their bets and show in the ring where it seems likeliest that the kid/amateur will show in.

Since you don’t really know exactly when your class is going to run the next day, if you just want to get in a few rounds wherever, you might enter classes in more than one ring and then see where the times will be better. Or you might want to wait and see how the horse does in one class and then scratch what you don’t need.

Honestly, the scratches really don’t seem to affect much: in other words, they don’t seem to cause the schedule to get too early. Maybe whoever does the times the night before has a secret decoder ring. Maybe horse shows expand to fill the allotted time. Maybe the time potentially saved with the scratches is counteracted by the nature of horse shows. Maybe people are thrilled that their class is going to go at 4 instead of 4:30.

I honestly found one-day dressage shows more annoying than HJ shows because, unless they said they were going to run the classes in the sequence of the levels, you had NO idea when you might show when you did entries. You and the person you were planning to trailer with could get your times and realize that one of you would be done by 9 am and the other wouldn’t start until 3 pm. Or, you could enter and hope that your training level class would run early so you could get back home and accomplish something, only to find out that you showed at 2 pm. And at that point you were stuck. Sometimes flexibility isn’t a bad thing.

[Peggy]

Back to the subject at hand, I am in favor of class limits with some flexibility with respect to heights shown. I do like the idea of proposed in TPH article cited in the OP where there is a limit both respect to number of classes per day and per show.

I don’t know enough about show software to know if it would be possible to check the number of classes as the show day was progressing; certainly having different limits for different heights would make it harder. It should be possible to determine at the end of the show day or definitely the show. While that wouldn’t save a horse that day (unless someone noticed and then got a steward), it would ferret out the trainers/riders who tend to enter horses in too many classes and ultimately help. What would be super nice would be something in the software that gave you some sort of warning when you put a horse in too many classes but that would likely be asking too much. Sometimes just getting entered is problematic.

Here is hopefully a link to a chart with class limits. It’s a public Facebook Post from the Safe Horse Community group. https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid02MKSPEF77bWwS7KzthZixbcHoQpxbWcKVDYb7mdXWi1ZG5U7S96WEofkEWsJRNBYXl&id=61571686100604

[Midge]

@alterGS

The 12 weeks of WEF blows my mind as someone who rarely does more than 5 weeks of showing in a whole year. I’m obviously in another world and I’m sure these horses are loved and cared for beyond belief, but if these horses only have so many jumps in them, it feels like one would be using them up rather quickly.

There may be some random animal that shows every week, but I wouldn’t bet on it. My friend’s barn does two weeks on, one week off. It keeps the work week easier for everyone.

[fivestrideline]

Two weeks on, one week off is common! And you usually don’t do that the WHOLE circuit either - people skip additional weeks here and there. A barn will be showing all circuit, and a rider may show all 12 weeks across their string (though IME that is uncommon outside of the pros and trainer’s kids). A horse might “be in Florida” for the whole circuit, but they’re at the FL farm hacking and getting turned out in between weeks.

There is a massive difference in how one rides and preps for 4H, local shows, local As, two weeks at a destination show, and a circuit like WEF. “Other sports” don’t have much bearing on how horse sports are run, and H/J has the added complexity of three disciplines run concurrently with horses often crossing over. Slapping Dressage Rules (or whatever) on H/J is not only impractical but also just will not happen. H/J is big money - if we want to see positive change there does have to be a little consideration for how people manage these events already! Otherwise the whole idea gets scrapped and we continue to see a few bad players jumping their horses’ legs off.

What I mean by this is any solution that involves massive software development ($$$$) or locks a person into classes a month out will likely be rejected outright. IMO a fine or sanction system may not save the horse that day, but it WILL hit the unscrupulous trainers and riders where it hurts (wallets and show results).

[enjoytheride]

I’m an eventer. I have to send in my entry weeks ahead of time and I get one chance to go around. If I have a training issue I have to pack up my trailer and go home. Done.

I’ve been doing HJ shows because it’s a perfect opportunity to get to go in again and iron out any issues my horse or I might be having. Stopped at fence 4? Went around like a banshee? There’s another class where I can smooth things out. Horse jumped around great in the .75 maybe it’s time to move up at this show. Things went perfect? I can scratch the extra classes.

When people come in and not only want to limit classes, but completely change the entire way HJ shows have operated since the beginning of time because they have no idea how it works, and accuse people of abuse when they try to explain how it works, you’re going to get a lot of resistance. I’m not arguing that there shouldn’t be a limits, but perhaps attempting to understand how HJ shows run before accusing people of abuse might get more results?

I know almost exactly what time my class starts when a show shuts off adds the evening before which most larger shows do. Then in the morning I go down, I see the friendly ring steward, and I put myself in the rotation where it works for me. I arrive to warm up before my rotation starts, warm up, and jump pretty much on time. Which, considering that my last show there were 60 trips in my division, is pretty darn good. MANY HJ shows have heard the complaints from gate holds and have gotten really really serious about it and MOST trainers have gotten in line and run on time.

[outside_leg]

@MHM

I don’t know anybody who shows the same horse all 12 weeks of WEF. Maybe there are people who do, but I don’t know any of them.

Agreed, as others have said. I’ll also add that WEF actually ends up being easier on a lot of horses than other circuits, because most people have stalls on the grounds, but trailer or hack their horses in each morning they’re going to show. The stalls are a hanging place that day, but the horses go back to their home base barn when they’re done showing that day. If the horse is showing three days that week, they’re actually at home enjoying turnout and familiar settings instead of being stuck at the show on their days off. It’s much more horse friendly than a lot of circuits.

As to the topic at hand, I’ll also add I’m in favor of class limits. I didn’t like one proposal I saw to limit 1.20m+ to one a day though. Some horses need ring acclimatization. You regularly see people go in to jump a couple fences and then retire before doing their big class. Or a junior or amateur moving up a level doing the 1.10m open class and then their 1.20m jr/amateur class because they still need some miles. Absolutely limit the number of classes or days a horse can show. But most jumper rings don’t have warm up classes, and young horses and green riders need the chance to get around. I’d cap most jumpers of any height at no more than two classes a day, especially early in the week when the classes tend to be one round speed classes or a combined power/speed.

[crackerjack]

At my local gold show we have ticketed warm ups/ schooling and it ends up be a couple trainers in the ring with 3 or four students going around at the same time. It could also be a pro on the horse doing the warm up. What I have seen is the pro going around and around and around the course over and over again, when technically you are supposed to go around once per ticket. iI it’s schooling it’s a bit looser but there is no need to go around a course 10+ times. The one I’m thinking of is a big name pro who’s horse ended up drenched in sweat. I’m only assuming the in gate person didn’t say stop it because of who it was.

[enjoytheride]

@Amberley

I was at multiple A shows this year helping out. They do not do the enter and scratch thing, admittedly they all focus on the jumpers.

Trainers with seasoned jumper horses over a meter likely know their horses well enough that they don’t need to use the add scratch functions as much, and once you get over a meter most people only do one or maybe 2 rounds anyway. But it still floors me that you aren’t aware of the add/scratch function. It’s a great benefit especially for someone on a greener horse.

[Tackpud]

USEF has the ability to look at the data - they track all show entries and update each horse’s results from all shows. Why haven’t the powers to be done the research into how many classes each horse is doing per show/per week/per year?

[MHM]

@outside_leg

I’ll also add that WEF actually ends up being easier on a lot of horses than other circuits, because most people have stalls on the grounds, but trailer or hack their horses in each morning they’re going to show.

It cracks me up that before those horses have a chance to be good in the show ring, first they have to be good trail horses to get there. Lol.

I remember someone from many years ago who had an ironclad rule that every horse had to walk for twenty minutes before it could pick up a trot, and it had to walk for twenty minutes to cool out after it worked.

I often think how pleased that person would be with the way WEF has developed over the years into a show facility with the twenty minute walk each way built into the routine.

[Amberley]

@enjoytheride

But it still floors me that you aren’t aware of the add/scratch function. It’s a great benefit especially for someone on a greener horse.

I’m aware you can do it. I don’t know anyone who enters “8 or 9” classes like you said you do them only competes in 2. That’s a logistical nightmare for everyone.

[SillyHorse]

@Peggy

I honestly found one-day dressage shows more annoying than HJ shows because, unless they said they were going to run the classes in the sequence of the levels, you had NO idea when you might show when you did entries.

From what I’ve experienced (and read here many times) people don’t really have any idea what time they’ll be showing in the hunters. With all the last minute entries and scratches, how can you?