Please explain this way of going to me.
I am not a western rider.
Have always thought the Quarter Horse a very nice looking breed of horse but I just don’t understand what is behind the idea that a horse should work this way.
I much prefer the working cow horse posture, seems more natural.
The “peanut roll” walk and trot seems acceptable but the canter or lope looks like it is very labor intensive for the horse to go so slow. Please enlighten me…
It’s rewarded in the show ring, so they do it, not really much more to it then that.
Talking to proponents of the western pleasure mindset is like dealing with teenagers. They’re fully convinced that they’re correct about everything, but haven’t taken their skill set out into the world and actually tried to get a job done like that.
[QUOTE=aktill;7841324]
It’s rewarded in the show ring, so they do it, not really much more to it then that.
Talking to proponents of the western pleasure mindset is like dealing with teenagers. They’re fully convinced that they’re correct about everything, but haven’t taken their skill set out into the world and actually tried to get a job done like that.[/QUOTE]
Yep. That is it in a nut shell.
I look at it like those folks into weird breed of dogs, or those twisty cats.
The whole thing is deformed.
But it is western pleasure thing, so you wouldn’t understand. That is the mind set.
Quarter Horses are wonderful animals. Everyday I’m thankful to have them. The Western Pleasure show style is just a dark side that those of us in the real world just can’t understand.
[QUOTE=Wirt;7841345]
Yep. That is it in a nut shell.
I look at it like those folks into weird breed of dogs, or those twisty cats.
The whole thing is deformed.
But it is western pleasure thing, so you wouldn’t understand. That is the mind set.[/QUOTE]
Not any different than absurdly gaited horses and their training, or any other we breed and train for that we want in our horses, in all our animals, really, for many reasons and purposes.
Do we really need a horse that runs faster yet, jumps even higher, will go for miles and still want more, motors around a ring throwing it’s legs around like a spinning wheel, dances in place?
You name it, we breed and train for it and many enjoy it.
Different strokes and all that …
Well, Bluey, not sure which kind of “absurdly gaited horses” you are referring to, but in my breed of choice, the Paso Fino, it is entirely natural. There from birth.
My western pleasure horse is NOT a peanut roller, nor does he “trope”. We did fine in the show ring beating those that did do these off gaits. Never showed at big shows and was hoping that the judging had changed.
There is no real reasoning other then it is rewarded in the show ring and has been for at least the last 25 years. Oh, they discuss it and try to enforce judging standards every few years, but they still are the choice of most judges even when there are others in the class displaying true gaits and a poll no lower then the withers.
In any breed, certain important, prolific breeders and trainers have tremendous influence over which judges are hired, they get their wish or boycott the show that then runs at a loss. The input of other members just didn’t have that kind if clout.
It exsists in Open shows too. Power is in the hands of the few .
What is the reason for a dressage piaffe? What would this skill set accomplish in the real world, besides letting my horse “prance in place”?
What is the reason for a reining spin? What would this skill set accomplish in the real world, besides making me dizzy?
What is the reason for barrel racing? What would this skill set accomplish in the real world, besides being able to run around a can really fast?
So what is the reason of western pleasure you ask? There is no reason for it, just like there is no reason for many other COMPETITION events … except the competition itself.
Peanut rolling is a no-no. Any judge that is placing a peanut roller should be losing their card.
Honestly, I don’t see much of a difference between western pleasure and hunt seat equitation as far as the horse head set is concerned.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8310/8059597682_a2dd42728b_z.jpg
Yes, western pleasure horses that are FORCED to go slow when they don’t have the natural ability to do so, will look awful. But there are a handful of horses that do have the natural talent to go that slow and make it look like butter.
Just as there are horses that don’t make it dressage because they don’t have the natural ability, there are horses that don’t make it in western pleasure.
Okay… Now tell me how this way of going is trained.
I have heard horror stories…
Tie the head down and take away impulsion, spur stops to avoid touching the reins and the head lifting. Results in itty, bitty trot steps and 4 beat lopes.
You CAN train properly using mainstream techniques but that requires starting with the right horse and takes time. Faster to slap the gimmicks on.
But ask me what I really think… I am also saddened by the advent of the sliding stop and spins with nose between ankles. Gee, wonder how they teach them that one.
The show ring esp at upper end, has no reflection, nor needs to, of direct application of working outside of the showring, but rather shows degree of difficulty and trainability
I hate the term peanut roller, esp when all western pleasure horses are painted by that brush, and when they are moving as per NSBA rules, thus NOT peanut rolling, and by people not qualified to judge
Any well trained horse can perform all three gaits moving on, and with contact on the reins. Go to any open show, or look at past aall around horses where western pl was an entry type class
There is a great degree of difficulty , strength building and ability for a horse to be able to lope slow, yet correct, keeping a level topline, rating speed off of leg and seat alone
Any horse with training can have a jog improved, but great lopers are born
How stupid are the comments of taking a horse able top move like a pleasure horse in the ring,through training,mind and ability, and thus assume that horse cannot move out like any other horse outside of that ring. I trail ride my pleasure horses, and assure you that they can keep up with the best of them, in the mountains or elsewhere.
I can also chase cows with my pleasure horse
It is funny how people that don’t understand a discipline, are instantly expert ’ bleacher judges ’
I don’t understand the use of Rolleur , as getting a horse behind the vertical is something I avoid, and that tight rein contact, on a double bridle?
We don’t use horses in war today, so what purpose does having a horse perform 'airs above ground?
What about reining-why have a horse slide many feet and complete four spins?
The cow would be long gone. Don’t get me wrong, I love a good reiner and reining used to be my discipline, along with western riding and some working cowhorse I am just illustrating that what is seen in the reining pen has very little to do with a working ranch horse, except to show degree of difficulty and athletic ability. Ditto for a top western pl horse, ridden according to NSBA rules
Tell me the purpose of a Big Lick TW, often trained through soring.
Western Pleasure movement
IS REWARDED IN THE SHOW RING BECAUSE IT SEPARATES THE GOOD HORSES FROm THE GREAT HORSES< THROUGH DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY
When you have an entire class of horses that are 100% on both leads, can jog ,walk and lope nicely, the only way to up that difficulty, is to have those horses perform true gaits, esp the lope, being difficult at that expectation, and with self carriage, going slow, but correct.
Think of raising the jumps to identify a top jumper. How would you place a class of International show jumpers expecting them to clear no more than hunter hack fences???
Ugh… just as I thought not the nicest methods.
[QUOTE=findeight;7841587]
But ask me what I really think… I am also saddened by the advent of the sliding stop and spins with nose between ankles. Gee, wonder how they teach them that one.[/QUOTE]
With the same CORRECT methods that a western pleasure horse can be correctly trained with.
I’m not denying there are trainers out there who use the shortcut methods. It happens. But there are also plenty of trainers who do things the right way.
There are bad trainers in EVERY discipline and sport.
[QUOTE=Just Not Native;7841596]
Ugh… just as I thought not the nicest methods.[/QUOTE]
Again, same brush applied to an entire discipline, which is totatlly not true. I and many others riding pleasure horses use our hands and a snaffle to train-that’s IT
There are abusive trainers in ALL disciplines, but to suggest all horses in that discipline are trained in such a manner is slanderous
I know of hunters where they are tacked over the jump by a pole, I have seen pictures of Olympic level dressage horses being ridden in Rollkur tot he point that they have blue tongues hanging out, reiners trained using a quick stop bosal, and there was a reiner disqualified from abig show, as in the warm up, to get that low head set stop, he was hiting the poll of his horse with a bat
I have gone to horse conferences where judges and vets involved in regulating abuse spoke.
Common in some cases to give Dressage horses cocaine before a test, sot hat by the time they ride that test, the horse is on a downer
I’m not ignorant enough to believe all dressage horses are ridden that way.
For those that truly wish to learn how great western pl horses are trained correctly, by great trainers and not horse 'mechanics, well, there are enough books and DVDs out there, by the likes of Dana Hockana, Steve Heckaman, Doug Carpenter, etc
What’s the point of $5000 claimers or cross rail hunter classes??? Please don’t paint an entire discipline with the same brush.
[QUOTE=Flash44;7841838]
What’s the point of $5000 claimers or cross rail hunter classes??? Please don’t paint an entire discipline with the same brush.[/QUOTE]
You can still make money with a $5,000 claimer, that’s the point.
[QUOTE=beau159;7841556]
What is the reason for a dressage piaffe? What would this skill set accomplish in the real world, besides letting my horse “prance in place”?[/QUOTE]
The reason for the piaffe in dressage is to maintain impulsion at the halt so that the horse can move off instantly. Dressage was the basis for war horse training back when horses were used to conquer the world.
The only place today where you can still see the movements used in that way is the Spanish bullring.
But there is a reason for every movement.
[QUOTE=oliverreed;7841438]
Well, Bluey, not sure which kind of “absurdly gaited horses” you are referring to, but in my breed of choice, the Paso Fino, it is entirely natural. There from birth.[/QUOTE]
Western pleasure horses are bred to move like, well, western pleasure horses.
The beauty of it all is that you can breed for whatever you want and make a show out of it if enough others like that.
You or myself or anyone else not involve don’t have to like it, it is their game and they play it as they wish.
When reining started, it was rough, today is very refined.
Horses bred for that can do those movements correctly the first saddle you put on them, they are a natural at that, the same with western pleasure and I am sure with paso finos or any such other.
I don’t like western pleasure or some other people do with their horses, but I will say, it is their right to bred for and do what they like.
If we deny them that right because we don’t like it, how about what we may do that others don’t like?
Now, when someone is talking about any abuse in the training or showing, really, that happens any place, in any breed or activity, when you have abusers there, a whole different topic that.
That is a stock breed show hunt seat horse, of course it looks like the western pleasure horse. That is why it is so frequently called Wenglish.
I am glad to see that the horribly down hill nose on the ground look is no longer all you see.
