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Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

Western
#21

[QUOTE=Bluey;7841962]
Western pleasure horses are bred to move like, well, western pleasure horses.

The beauty of it all is that you can breed for whatever you want and make a show out of it if enough others like that.

You or myself or anyone else not involve don’t have to like it, it is their game and they play it as they wish.

When reining started, it was rough, today is very refined.
Horses bred for that can do those movements correctly the first saddle you put on them, they are a natural at that, the same with western pleasure and I am sure with paso finos or any such other.

I don’t like western pleasure or some other people do with their horses, but I will say, it is their right to bred for and do what they like.
If we deny them that right because we don’t like it, how about what we may do that others don’t like?

Now, when someone is talking about any abuse in the training or showing, really, that happens any place, in any breed or activity, when you have abusers there, a whole different topic that.[/QUOTE]

There is a lot of abuse associated with western pleasure.
and reining, for that matter.

#22

[QUOTE=Wirt;7842007]
There is a lot of abuse associated with western pleasure.
and reining, for that matter.[/QUOTE]

Why point at those only, when we know it is in practically any we do, not only with horses, but any place you find abusers?

Abuse is a whole different topic than what we may breed and train and show for.

Any abuse should not happen, we have rules and regulations and supervision and still abusers do get by, it is the nature of abusers and the rest of us do the best we can.

Now, to call abuse a whole discipline, there you have to do more than not like what they do.
There is plenty I don’t like some do in much of the horse world, but that doesn’t mean it is abuse or they should quit doing it because I don’t like it, like western pleasure.

I was standing on the door to the arena in Madison Square garden as the puissance was on and saw, for the first time, these very odd critters riding up to the gate.
They were very refined tall skinny horses, with a very long straight shank, high headed and wild eyed, with wooden horseshoes and tails unnaturally over their backs.
I was not even sure they were all horse and someone explained those were five gaited horses, getting ready for their class.

Guess what, those two ladies were watching the puissance and one was telling the other how horrible it was to jump walls like that, really abusive to ask that of the horses and how many are killed doing that, while sitting on some absurd looking horse?

We have to realize that there are all kinds of ways everyone enjoys their horses.

#23

Well, thats because there isn’t much difference between “HUS” or hunt seat eq. and western pleasure at breed shows. Thats why it gets the nick name “winglish”

This is a World Champion “HUS” horse. (notice it goes much in the same way as a western pleasure horse).

In contrast, here is the winner of a 2 year old hunter under saddle class at an open “A” show.

Also in open shows - most “hunter under saddle” horses also do the hunter over fences classes. The low frame and down hill way of going that is pinned in “HUS” in breed shows does not pair particularly well with going over jumps.

#24

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7842063]

Well, thats because there isn’t much difference between “HUS” or hunt seat eq. and western pleasure at breed shows. Thats why it gets the nick name “winglish”

This is a World Champion “HUS” horse. (notice it goes much in the same way as a western pleasure horse).

In contrast, here is the winner of a 2 year old hunter under saddle class at an open “A” show.

Also in open shows - most “hunter under saddle” horses also do the hunter over fences classes. The low frame and down hill way of going that is pinned in “HUS” in breed shows does not pair particularly well with going over jumps.[/QUOTE]

In that first link she looks like she is trying to see her horse’s head.

The second photo is what I like. A nice arch, forward looking horse.

#25

Well the horse in the second photo is traveling in a manner that a horse could JUMP from - you know, the origin of a “hunter” being a fox hunting horse. Now “show hunters” are a far cry from fox hunters now in this county - but at least they go in a way that can get over jumps.

“HUS” is nothing but western pleasure with a bigger stride - it would be pretty hard to jump - or god forbid ride out of the arena on a horse who’s chin is down by its knees.

#26

I bring this up frequently:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/OneOfTheseThingsIsNotLikeTheOther.png

Ranch pleasure champion, ranch horse, dressage gold medalist, and western pleasure champion. I’ll let you guess which one is which.

Yes, you can selectively breed for this. Yes, it’s then the easiest thing for that sort of horse to do. No, it’s not healthy for them to do it, even if it’s the easiest thing for them to do. Biomechanics doesn’t change with lousy breeding.

#27

Then you should do the honorable thing of taking footage of your “run” and then reporting the judge to the officials for him/her not judging by the rules, and placing a peanut roller.

People keeping quiet is why judges still get away with it.

You are enabling it.

#28

That’s like I like cow horses. no peanut rollers the horses go naturally as intended. The horse gets low on his own to get a damn cow… not because he’s wapped on the head

#29

[QUOTE=La Gringa;7842562]
That’s like I like cow horses. no peanut rollers the horses go naturally as intended. The horse gets low on his own to get a damn cow… not because he’s wapped on the head[/QUOTE]

I think you mean cutters?

Many other cow horses chase cattle, many times high headed and manhandled here and there, not always really working the cattle.

#30

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7842063]
Hum - I am currently riding a horse that was a top three placer two years in a row at the Paint Worlds for Western Pleasure.

He has been trained to travel with his nose down to his knees.

I agree that any judge pinning these “ears below the withers” horses shouldn’t be a judge. But despite rule changes - this is STILL what is being pinned.

This is the APHA 2014 champion 3 year western pleasure horse.. And this is the 3 year old western pleasure challenge winner.

Well, thats because there isn’t much difference between “HUS” or hunt seat eq. and western pleasure at breed shows. Thats why it gets the nick name “winglish”

This is a World Champion “HUS” horse. (notice it goes much in the same way as a western pleasure horse).

In contrast, here is the winner of a 2 year old hunter under saddle class at an open “A” show.

Also in open shows - most “hunter under saddle” horses also do the hunter over fences classes. The low frame and down hill way of going that is pinned in “HUS” in breed shows does not pair particularly well with going over jumps.[/QUOTE]

Sigh. The looks in those horses’ eyes makes me sad. :no:

#31

I wish I could get my horse to pick his head up! Sure, he’ll pick it up if I ride with more contact, but if I give him a loose rein he will jog around with his head down and it’s not something I’m asking him for, he just sorta does it.

I’d much rather he looked like the 3 horses in aktill’s comparison image :frowning:

My pony’s jog
http://youtu.be/-k4LxfylSso
(he’s a mustang)

#32

maybe watch this video of what is correct and good in western pl, put out by AQHA. If you can’t see the ability and level of training, well I guess that is your problem, as agood horseman recognizes good horses and ability in nay discipline.
I don’t like that hyper flexed look seen on many dressage horses, tight rein contack and horse frothing at the mouth, but I can still see the great dressage horses, when I watch some of their demos at places like Spruce Meadows
My neice , who rides dressage in Ontario, came out and rode with me. She asked to borrow a pair of gloves, and I asked why, as it was in the middle of July.
She told me that otherwise the reins would cut her hands! I told her no way would she be holding onto the mouth of any of my horses to the point of needing to wear gloves
Yes, we still want our HUS horses to travel with a level topline, and NEVER behind the verticle
You can’t watch some of the great HUS horses like Sky’s Blue BOy or These Irons are HOt, and deny that they are great movers
Another funny example, showing that good horsemen recognize a good horse regardless of breed. I show my senior horses all around, thus both western pl and HUS, besides trail and western riding. I also occasionally show at open shows
I took my stock horse, that I show both western pl and HUS, and rode against traditional English horses (TB , Morgans, etc ) and under a judge from a dressage background. I won the class
I have shown at a venue known as The Horse Improvement show, where a pattern is ridden , either English or western, and scored. One judge was from an English background and one from a western. My scores from both had only one point of difference, and my horse scored ‘classic’

Not going to again try to explain to those that don’t wish to read, that show ring has nothing to do with riding outside of that show ring, beyond showing train ability and upper athletic ability in any given discipline.
I’m not stupid, and know where Dressage and Airs above ground originated from, but it has no application to war today-I guess you could have your horse kick off your neighbour’s head! What application does trotting in place, like a reving engine have, taught by tying a horse between two pillars?
Anyways, for those that want to learn something about western pleasure, instead of just bashing a discipline they don’t understand, here is that AQHA
video
Hope this covers ‘please explain,’ unless you really don’t want to learn, just judge something you are not any where near qualified to judge

http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/aqha-western-pleasure-judging.aspx

#33

[QUOTE=Wirt;7842007]
There is a lot of abuse associated with western pleasure.
and reining, for that matter.[/QUOTE]

Really, by everyone???
Then all dressage horses must be trained like this

https://www.google.ca/search?q=rollkur+blue+tongue&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9AhbVIWcB5SfyASpuICABw&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1617&bih=830

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

Pretty ignorant to point a finger at any other discipline outside your own, as there are people in any discipline that will do anything to win. Ever hear of not throwing rocks if you live in a glass house???
Have enough money at stake, and there will always be trainers that will due what they think they need to for that little preceived extra edge, and owners forking over that training money who turn a blind eye

#34

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7843031]
Really, by everyone???
Then all dressage horses must be trained like this

https://www.google.ca/search?q=rollkur+blue+tongue&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9AhbVIWcB5SfyASpuICABw&ved=0CB4QsAQ&biw=1617&bih=830

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIXGiV4N4k

Pretty ignorant to point a finger at any other discipline outside your own, as there are people in any discipline that will do anything to win. Ever hear of not throwing rocks if you live in a glass house???
Have enough money at stake, and there will always be trainers that will due what they think they need to for that little preceived extra edge, and owners forking over that training money who turn a blind eye[/QUOTE]

Where I ride, there are three AQHA and APHA western pleasure trainers, all with full barns and plenty of students. The horses are all fat and healthy and well cared for, except a good many of them have lameness issues, predominately navicular and suspensory problems, and other lower front leg problems, due to the the way they are shod, and ridden, probably. Many are amateur owners that love their horses and love to show and spend a ton a money on both. They don’t know any thing else. They keep the trainers pretty busy.

I listen to them discuss what a good mover a horse is, and to my eye, its not even movement at all. Especially the lope, which has been morphed into some weird version of a lope. I just cannot stand to watch that funky canted in humping, staggering lope with the nose down to the knees and pointed back to the toes. I see horses in hock hobbles, their heads tied between their front legs and back to their hocks, while in double twisted wire, or cathedral port shank bits tied back hard to the saddle, and left that way for hours. or lounged that way for twenty minutes at a time. Not saying everyone does that, but it is not frowned upon by anyone that I can see. I see it everyday. Par for the course, I guess. Do what you have to do to get the look… The horses look miserable to me. Just my opinion. I think reiners have it equally as bad these days. At least they get to gallop some.

Glad you had a good one.

I just do not understand the appeal.

#35

[QUOTE=Wirt;7843067]
Where I ride, there are three AQHA and APHA western pleasure trainers, all with full barns and plenty of students. The horses are all fat and healthy and well cared for, except a good many of them have lameness issues, predominately navicular and suspensory problems, and other lower front leg problems, due to the the way they are shod, and ridden, probably. Many are amateur owners that love their horses and love to show and spend a ton a money on both. They don’t know any thing else. They keep the trainers pretty busy.

I listen to them discuss what a good mover a horse is, and to my eye, its not even movement at all. Especially the lope, which has been morphed into some weird version of a lope. I just cannot stand to watch that funky canted in humping, staggering lope with the nose down to the knees and pointed back to the toes. I see horses in hock hobbles, their heads tied between their front legs and back to their hocks, while in double twisted wire, or cathedral port shank bits tied back hard to the saddle, and left that way for hours. or lounged that way for twenty minutes at a time. Not saying everyone does that, but it is not frowned upon by anyone that I can see. I see it everyday. Par for the course, I guess. Do what you have to do to get the look… The horses look miserable to me. Just my opinion. I think reiners have it equally as bad these days. At least they get to gallop some.

Glad you had a good one.

I just do not understand the appeal.[/QUOTE]

That is it, the rest of us that don’t do something others like to do “don’t understand the appeal”.

That is immaterial, WE are not the ones doing it, THEY are.

I think so much some do with their horses is really out there, to put it mildly, but no one is asking me and really, it is not my place to tell them off because I don’t like it, any more than I will tell them I don’t like their choice of, say, husband.

#36

[QUOTE=Just Not Native;7841252]
Please explain this way of going to me.
I am not a western rider.
Have always thought the Quarter Horse a very nice looking breed of horse but I just don’t understand what is behind the idea that a horse should work this way.
I much prefer the working cow horse posture, seems more natural.
The “peanut roll” walk and trot seems acceptable but the canter or lope looks like it is very labor intensive for the horse to go so slow. Please enlighten me…[/QUOTE]

I can’t find anything acceptable in any of the gaits. I went to Congress last year and WP was the only thing going on. I had to leave because I couldn’t keep my mouth shut about how awful it was and I was afraid someone was going to tell me to shut up at the very least. Anyway, I couldn’t stand to watch it a moment longer. When they do get a horse that moves almost normally the judges don’t place it. My theory is that since the horse barely moves, novice riders can sit the gaits and look good. Why else would someone want to watch a horse that looks lame.

#37

KIloBright, thanks for that video. It gives me hope. Although I found those gaits slow and short strided compared to what I’m used to seeing, it didn’t hurt my eyes to watch those horses move. They just looked slower and shorter strided and not lame.

#38

[QUOTE=imaginique;7843129]
I can’t find anything acceptable in any of the gaits. I went to Congress last year and WP was the only thing going on. I had to leave because I couldn’t keep my mouth shut about how awful it was and I was afraid someone was going to tell me to shut up at the very least. Anyway, I couldn’t stand to watch it a moment longer. When they do get a horse that moves almost normally the judges don’t place it. My theory is that since the horse barely moves, novice riders can sit the gaits and look good. Why else would someone want to watch a horse that looks lame.[/QUOTE]

Do you ever think about kids spending years sitting in a classroom, do you walk into a big grocery store and watch the cashiers, spending hours by their register in their jobs?
Do you ever think if that is ok, or any other humans do in their daily jobs, in their lives?

Much of it is jobs we do because that is our job, is what we do in life, it may or not make sense, we do whatever we have to do.

The same we may say when it comes to our animals, we bred and train them and manage them to do what fits what we do with them in our lives.

Yes, some of that is on the less than ideal realm, but so is life for all.
Life is generally about less than ideal, utopian worlds.

I may not like what others do, but I will do my own thing and try to be polite about what I don’t like.

You left there, voted with your feet that was not what you liked, that is a good way to go about it.
I have done the same also, it is painful to watch something we don’t like that others find interesting, but it is the way the world works, each to their own.

#39

[QUOTE=Angelico;7841846]
You can still make money with a $5,000 claimer, that’s the point.[/QUOTE]

But usually not as much as you spend.

#40

WP is really no different than any other discipline divorced from reality. If the winning criteria are subjective, then the “quality” produced therein will be subjective. In that way, it’s no different than dressage or reining.

However, when people start to talk about how challenging it is to produce a winning WP horse…well, that’s a self-induced burden of Sisyphus.

WP was intended originally to be an introductory discipline, a simple and uncomplicated precursor to reining, cowhorse and other stock horse events. Basically like taking training level dressage and making it into it’s own event.

Can anyone actually see where a WP horse would make a good reiner, cutter, or cowhorse? I can’t. Other than stretching to see basic, basic lessons of obedience that even a trail ride would teach, there’s literally nothing that transfers. I won’t even debate the biomechanical part, if my graphic isn’t enough.

So if you want a pat on the back from anyone other than a fellow competitor, I suspect you might be waiting for a while.

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