Look, I have ridden reiners, working cowhorses, western riding horses, and do know the amount of training used to produce a good western pleasure horse, one that can go on to events like western riding. Try riding your horse doing exact cadenced lead changes on a loose rein
Correctly trained, western pleasure horses are long trotted a lot to build strength, use the counter canter, just like a reiner, and are also ridden out, at least mine are
They know when to move like a pleasure horse and when to just walk, or lope out on a trail ride
I know of very few if any dressage horses ever ridden out, on a ‘real’ trail ride
Reining has no drug rules, and those three year olds showing in big futurities are only kept going through drugs.
To each his own. myself, I hate that tight over flexed head carriage seen on many dressage horses, often with that rider having tight contact on a double bridle, but then, to each his own. Much prefer the relaxed easy self carriage on aloose rein of a western pleasure horse
I have trail ridden both my working horses and my pleasure bred horses, and their smoothness can’t be compared
Get horse and Rider?? Know who Bob Avila is???
He had an article in there once of putting some western pleasure training on his reiners to improve the quality of their lope
Watch some reiners int hat slow circle-many four beat
I don’t know what you are seeing at your barns, but I see some pretty funky English riding at the indoor arena I ride at during the winter
Ride one of my pleasure horses, out over an open field during the winter, and you will be surprised as to how they can move!
You are talking to someone that has ridden and shown and trained in many disciplines, and I am neither a dressage princess, nor a buckle belt bunny!
I have ridden BIG horn sheep hunting trails that you won’t find any recreational rider on, and in the last relatively few years, tried to learn how to train and show a good western pleasure horse, so do know how difficult it is to get one trained correctly
How do you think many all around horses, shown not just western pl, but trail, are able to negociate those tight lope overs on a loose rein, if those horses don’t have a great deal of body control
The trainer that I have taken some clinics with, and who has won western riding , trail and pleasure at upper end, went to England, and both he and a dressage horse did a demo of some great flying changes.
he then dropped that bridle and repeated that flying lead pattern. The dressage horse could not do it without that rein support, and he heard one spectator comment, 'if I didn’t see it with me owns eyes, I would not believe it
If you don’t like western pleasure, don’t watch it, but if you feel superior enough to make negative comments out of ignorance, remember that you yourself might be judged by the knowledge of those words spouting out of your mouth!
Incorrect.
See the AQHA Handbook, Violations VI0300-305: Prohibited Medication, Drug, Substance
Also the NRHA Handbook, General Rules and Regulations, G: Animal Welfare and Medications Provisions Applicable to all NRHA Events
[QUOTE=aktill;7843215]
WP is really no different than any other discipline divorced from reality. If the winning criteria are subjective, then the “quality” produced therein will be subjective. In that way, it’s no different than dressage or reining.
However, when people start to talk about how challenging it is to produce a winning WP horse…well, that’s a self-induced burden of Sisyphus.
WP was intended originally to be an introductory discipline, a simple and uncomplicated precursor to reining, cowhorse and other stock horse events. Basically like taking training level dressage and making it into it’s own event.
Can anyone actually see where a WP horse would make a good reiner, cutter, or cowhorse? I can’t. Other than stretching to see basic, basic lessons of obedience that even a trail ride would teach, there’s literally nothing that transfers. I won’t even debate the biomechanical part, if my graphic isn’t enough.
So if you want a pat on the back from anyone other than a fellow competitor, I suspect you might be waiting for a while.[/QUOTE]
When I have mentioned that so many bridle horses up on the bridle are working very stiff like and uptight, have shown videos of some just like that, several posters have also been very upset, saying “I didn’t understand”.
Well, it is the same with any other, including dressage, western pleasure, whatever we care to call it, that others do and work hard at it.
If it fits how some want to train and ride, really, the rest of us that do something different should at least give them the benefit of the doubt, that maybe we are the ones that don’t quite get it, definitively not like they do.
[QUOTE=beau159;7842405]
Then you should do the honorable thing of taking footage of your “run” and then reporting the judge to the officials for him/her not judging by the rules, and placing a peanut roller.
People keeping quiet is why judges still get away with it.
You are enabling it.[/QUOTE]
Correction - No, I am not “enabling it” I DO NOT SHOW WESTERN PLEASURE. Really not my cup of tea.
I am schooling this “western pleasure champion” because despite winning in “pleasure” he is a real asshole out side of the arena, and will try to dump his rider in a variety of ways. Honestly, I think he is an unhappy horse due to being broke before 2 - going to the “worlds” as a 2, 3 and 4 year old. Thats a tough life for a young horse - and one that is not uncommon for the top WP horses. Luckily he is learning to like the trail - and to move a bit more naturally.
As for reporting the judges - can you please show us some examples of winning runs where the horses AREN’T traveling at a snails pace with their head hanging?
Here is a world championship 2 year old class…
So maybe the judges at the Worlds need to be “reported”?
As for abuse in training - I have boarded at facilities with three separate WP trainers. One trainer I respected, never saw unfair handling or rough riding - her horses did well at the local show level.
The other was a QH trainer - went to congress every year, had some champions - her horses were schooled in cranked down martingales, other gadgets, and ridden VERY roughly at times. The kinda stuff I just couldn’t watch.
The third is a paint trainer - again, one who goes to the “big” shows - and the training is much like what I saw from the QH trainer. Lots of gadgets, lots of fights - once trained, her horses look very “broken”.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7842595]
I think you mean cutters?
Many other cow horses chase cattle, many times high headed and manhandled here and there, not always really working the cattle.[/QUOTE]
Not in Penning and Sorting. The horse gets low and cuts them too. I’m not talking about roping. My mare cuts the cows even at speed without being yanked. Sure there are bad riders…
If the horse isn’t working the herd in these events you will not get your cow out f the herd. Sure some riding (ie turning and kicking) may be involved…but if your horse is not in control you will get nowhere. A high head can happen but the horse is not at the cows level like that and will not be effective. A cowy horse like mine … snakes her head low and goes for them… by herself in these events…with my help only really to steer when not working the cow or turning back cows
Here’s a western trainer who does NOT go for the peanut roller look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jThLW99SGgw
My daughter and I attended a clinic that he put on for 4-Hers a few years ago. He told the kids that they HAD to get their horses moving correctly (i.e., 3-beat lope etc), THEN work on slowing it down while still maintaining correctness. Also was very critical of the low headset, peanut-rolling stuff. Refreshing to hear from a QH trainer/judge.
Off-topic–that mare in the video is rockin’ that long mane look!
Sorry if I offend, but those WP horses are simply horrid looking. If that were athletic, why dont they look like that outside, free? In Dressage, we are pursuing the almost elusive beautiful gaits so freely offered at liberty.
When you say “it’s hard to train a WP horse”, my answer can only be “okay.” I don’t doubt that it’s hard to get a horse to perform gaits that I understand to be so counter-productive to soundness.
Nothing about the carriage of a pleasure horse does anything to protect the hocks and stifles of a horse, nor does it represent a weight bearing posture conducive to long term soundness. Much like drum tight reins in a bad dressage horse, carriage that is winning with WP is not conducive to long term soundness. Look up the action of the reciprocating and stay mechanisms in the hind leg, or better yet, since you’re in Alberta go down to Ft Mcleod and take a dissection course with Dr Deb Bennett…it’s enlightening.
Reduce the discussion to the anatomy, and you don’t have to have a “well this person does that and they win” discussion, or a conversation about which show ring fashion “out-bads” the other. Ask someone why a horse should have its head at wither level, what position the head should be in, or what a collected gait looks like, and you’ll get (directly or indirectly) an explanation of their understanding of what constitutes proper biomechanicss.
So when you say "remember that you yourself might be judged by the knowledge of those words spouting out of your mouth! ", consider that someone willing to perform the gaits that win in WP right now is making a statement about their values as well, and what they believe about the consequences of certain movement patterns. For myself, I guarantee that the cross training you do is a what’s keeping your horses sound for all the cross training you do, NOT their show carriage. That you choose to spend such an incredible amount of effort to produce that carriage essentially comprise the words coming out of YOUR mouth, so don’t be surprised when people take your own advice.
It’s really no different for a toe flicking dressage horse, or a behind the bit reiner. When there isn’t a clock to race against, or an enemy to go ride out against, or some other impassive third party, fashion wins the day.
[QUOTE=allons-y;7843914]
Sorry if I offend, but those WP horses are simply horrid looking. If that were athletic, why dont they look like that outside, free? In Dressage, we are pursuing the almost elusive beautiful gaits so freely offered at liberty.[/QUOTE]
Some do. I was looking after a western pleasure/reining barn whilst the owners went away. Their babies put their heads down when turned loose and loped around. Just like my horses sit down and passage around when loose. A lot of it is breeding.
That said EVERY western barn I have been to has done things to make these young horses dead broke that I am strongly against. Horses tied with their heads up for hours on end, left in arenas with their heads tied to their stirrups while the trainer goes and eats dinner. Unfit 2 year olds ridden to the point of exhaustion and bloody spur spots. I am not saying this is how all WP barns do things but I dare say its not unusual. Most Hunter Jumper or Dressage barns have the odd thing I don’t like but its usually here and there and not barn wide when horses are on their ‘off’ time.
For the person who said that they see too many dressage horses ‘pulled in’ or on tight contact. Sometimes its the HORSE making that choice to hold strong. I know people with very light horses who ride in gloves or their hands get cut up. Its not so cut and dry here either. Young strong horses often seek a good strong contact as they are learning and if you give with the reins they stretch down to find it. Rolkur aside it takes two to pull.
I kind of like western pleasure. I think you need to ride a nice WP horse to get it. They are smooth, responsive and submissive. The good ones are bred to be that slow and low in the neck, and that is how they move when out and about. The Western riding horses that have to do flying changes as part of their pattern really impress me…so balanced and lightly, yet still moving such that they can do a clean flying change.
These horses are bred to be quiet and compliant.
I get why some people don’t like it, as when you get to the top of the sport you are watching extremes, because that is what competition like that leads to: extremes.
But, I think to understand the low neck/head and the slow gait, you really need to ride it. To feel each footfall and to know you have complete control over each step that horse takes.
And no, it doesn’t require cruelty to get there.
THIS is my horse. He has correct movement, just slowed down.
Timely article just came across my FB feed:
From a Western Pleasure lover: Let them move
Well written and worth a read!!
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7844130]
Timely article just came across my FB feed:
From a Western Pleasure lover: Let them move
Well written and worth a read!![/QUOTE]
Wish I could see the videos…that website’s format is terrible.
hum - videos worked just fine for me.
edited to add - here are the direct links to the videos:
Over - canted lope:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEO-19PWilE
WP warm up area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw
Western Riding
That’s because he’s just plopping along. Use leg to get him marching forward and carrying himself and his head will come up naturally.
[QUOTE=froglander;7842922]
I wish I could get my horse to pick his head up! Sure, he’ll pick it up if I ride with more contact, but if I give him a loose rein he will jog around with his head down and it’s not something I’m asking him for, he just sorta does it.
I’d much rather he looked like the 3 horses in aktill’s comparison image 
My pony’s jog
http://youtu.be/-k4LxfylSso
(he’s a mustang)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Appsolute;7844576]
hum - videos worked just fine for me.
edited to add - here are the direct links to the videos:
Over - canted lope:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEO-19PWilE
WP warm up area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kyZlov_YEw
Western Riding
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZUd-jt6P2w[/QUOTE]
Thanks for that, site is probably just not ipad friendly. Nothing in there that looks like much fun to me, personally.
Now THIS horse looks like a pleasure to ride: http://youtu.be/uexLqB80TFc
[QUOTE=tinah;7844636]
That’s because he’s just plopping along. Use leg to get him marching forward and carrying himself and his head will come up naturally.[/QUOTE]
Yep, agreed. Need some wind in the sails before they’re stay up on their own.
Horses rarely want to move in elevated carriage at first without being shown that it feels good first. Even if they’re reaching down into the bridle, they’ll only avoid dumping down on the forehand if they’re telescoping the lower part of their neck. Just dropping their head without extending the lower cervical curve really doesn’t accomplish much.
[QUOTE=allons-y;7843914]
Sorry if I offend, but those WP horses are simply horrid looking. If that were athletic, why dont they look like that outside, free? In Dressage, we are pursuing the almost elusive beautiful gaits so freely offered at liberty.[/QUOTE]
Different courses for different horses.:o
A good western pleasure horse is bred to be the way it is. Just the way a cutting horse is bred to be just that. The people who believe that showing and riding a two year old quarter horse, or paint is wrong they mature different then lets say a dutch warmblood. The Icelandic horse I had growing up was nine when I got him. That being said he was not the best horse for me because I was nine at the time. And the biggest reason we shouldn’t have been a good match is he was ridden the first time at seven because when Icelandic horses mature. Each breed is different I myself find jumping any horse at two horrible, but many people do.
THIS is what western riding on a three year old should look like. Absolute pleasure to watch: http://youtu.be/1qwkvbiRPP8
Icelandics don’t mature any later than other breeds. They’re just sensible enough to look like babies when they’re 2, so people aren’t tempted to work the snot out of them that early. They still LOOK like foals.
