[QUOTE=aktill;7844986]
THIS is what western riding on a three year old should look like. Absolute pleasure to watch: http://youtu.be/1qwkvbiRPP8[/QUOTE]
If I was horse shopping, which I am not I would pass that one by. I don’t like that one myself. I have seen horse ridden as two year olds sound at twenty, and horses not ridden until four not be sound at six each horse is different. Some people see a two year old paint and cry it is a baby no it is a horse big difference.
To each their own. I will say 99% of people have no business riding 2 or 3 yr olds.
[QUOTE=Charliemyheart;7844984]
Different courses for different horses.:o
A good western pleasure horse is bred to be the way it is. Just the way a cutting horse is bred to be just that. The people who believe that showing and riding a two year old quarter horse, or paint is wrong they mature different then lets say a dutch warmblood. The Icelandic horse I had growing up was nine when I got him. That being said he was not the best horse for me because I was nine at the time. And the biggest reason we shouldn’t have been a good match is he was ridden the first time at seven because when Icelandic horses mature. Each breed is different I myself find jumping any horse at two horrible, but many people do.[/QUOTE]
Breeds are different but maturity happens the same time in all breeds (as an average, individuals may vary)
http://www.equinestudies.org/ranger_2008/ranger_piece_2008_pdf1.pdf
That young paint or quarter horse’s legs and spines aren’t any more developed than that young hannovarian.
Now I am not saying that we can’t work horses whilst they are growing, we let children play sports. I don’t think they should be carrying a lot of weight or doing hard work though. Regardless of breed.
[QUOTE=Charliemyheart;7844984]
Just the way a cutting horse is bred to be just that. The people who believe that showing and riding a two year old quarter horse, or paint is wrong they mature different then lets say a dutch warmblood. [/QUOTE]
Oh, dear. Please educate yourself and understand that horses are horses and the skeletons of all horses mature at the same rate, regardless of breed. Some horses LOOK mature when they are not; however, that doesn’t mean that they are ready to be ridden.
Horses are such kind and giving creatures. It makes me sad to see people take advantage of that (regardless of discipline) and use it for their benefit and greed.
Yep - science and facts show that bones are bones and horses are horses. Quarter horses while they may LOOK more mature than a young warmblood that has not filled out as much - still have undeveloped bones and unclosed growth plates.
Besides - the 2 year old Futurity winner I know - he is now 6 and has to be in special shoes, joint injections, etc. He isn’t really sound. The plan next is to nerve him. The hope is to keep him going till he is 10 - then he will need to be retired.
The other competitive WP barns I have shared facilities with - I can point to many young, lame horses. Showing extensively as two year olds really does a number on some horses (I say some, as someone will always chime in with “my horse has been showing under saddle every weekend since he was 18 months old, he is 20 now and never had a problem!”).
Navicular seems to run rampant in these horses.
Here 
Read some hoof research by the likes of Dr Robert Bowker
Navicular is mainly a man made problem due to early shoing of young horses, and incorrect shoing, plus lack of movement, to allow normal development of the back of the foot
How many dressage horses get hock injections, how many jumpers, even geldings are on regulmate.
I really get tired of tunnel vision my many, where they focus on one discipline to try and find all the negatives, and blindly ignore what is wrong in all disciplines, including their own, with a 'them, but not me attitude!!!
Bill Collins, a very well known Alberta horseman, campaigned for years against three year old cutting futurities
How truly sound,m and how early are reiners started, pushed towards some big three year old reining futurity???
These horses as three year olds are up in the bridle , ridden one handed, doing sliding stops .spins flying changes, ect
What about race horses-how many two and three year olds have broken down???
The pushing of young horses is certainly not limited to western pleasure, and is fueled by the big purses being placed on these young horses, thus expectations of owners, who push the trainers, who make their living by being successful, etc, etc-get a grip and see the big picture, which goes way beyond western pleasure!!!
[QUOTE=K[/QUOTE]
I liked the first video of the western riding, except for the horse’s expression. In my opinion, that is how I wish WP should like like on the rail, no slower, or head and neck no lower than that. But that is rare in most cases.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7846011]
Read some hoof research by the likes of Dr Robert Bowker
Navicular is mainly a man made problem due to early shoing of young horses, and incorrect shoing, plus lack of movement, to allow normal development of the back of the foot
How many dressage horses get hock injections, how many jumpers, even geldings are on regulmate.
I really get tired of tunnel vision my many, where they focus on one discipline to try and find all the negatives, and blindly ignore what is wrong in all disciplines, including their own, with a 'them, but not me attitude!!!
Bill Collins, a very well known Alberta horseman, campaigned for years against three year old cutting futurities
How truly sound,m and how early are reiners started, pushed towards some big three year old reining futurity???
These horses as three year olds are up in the bridle , ridden one handed, doing sliding stops .spins flying changes, ect
What about race horses-how many two and three year olds have broken down???
The pushing of young horses is certainly not limited to western pleasure, and is fueled by the big purses being placed on these young horses, thus expectations of owners, who push the trainers, who make their living by being successful, etc, etc-get a grip and see the big picture, which goes way beyond western pleasure!!![/QUOTE]
Don’t get in such a wad. The original question was about western pleasure, so that is what we are talking about.
I don’t like least half the stuff that is going on out there.
If you want to defend WP, then just show the good stuff and how it should look, and encourage that.
But to qualify some abuse as okay, because it exist other places, is not a good argument.
Kilobright, your posts would be so much easier to read if you would put paragraph breaks in. When you post big blocks of text, it all runs together and is hard to follow.
Talking about horse’s ages, those that show know there are many older to old horses doing fine, thank you.
One of those, in this month Horse and Rider magazine pg 17, is the 1988 mare Isle Bea Treasure, that was started and competed in the reining futurity and is still winning today at 26 years old.
Someone in the SW circuit won last year in his category the year end award with a 19 year old that is still going strong.
Those two just off the top of my head.
Several NFR roping and dogging horses, the best out there, are in their teens, some early 20’s.
Years ago, ranch horses were started as 4 and 5 year olds and were sold as old horses that could not go a whole long day any more about 10 years old.
It is not when a horse is started that makes them perform sound and healthy longer, but how you use them from the time you start them and how you manage them thru their lives.
Like with human athletes, some just keep on going and going and going, then some stop being competitive sooner than others.
Qoute
It is not when a horse is started that makes them perform sound and healthy longer, but how you use them from the time you start them and how you manage them thru their lives.
Very true. High Sign, an ApHC stallion, won, I believe 52 World and National titles in reining and working cowhorse, and was still showing at age 22
Conformation that has ‘form to function’ also can’t be ignored, as stress is greater on parts that don’t aleign properly, just like they are on a poorly designed building
Much better to start a young horse slowly and correctly, instead of leaving the horse sit as pasture ornaments.
There is also the fact that we no longer always breed for longevity of soundness, and through veterinary intervention, not possible years ago, keep horses going that should never pass on their genetics. Stem cell therapy, Shock Wave therapy and a host of cutting edge treatments, keep horses going that would have been culled in nature, or during the times horses actually had to work day in and day out, and stay sound.
Often now, horses earn major titles as jr horses, then are retired to stud, with no proof that they would have remained sound .
Shoing young horses, before the hoof is fully developed, has been proven by the works of the likes of Dr Robert Bowker, that the lateral cartilages and digital cushions never mature to what a healthy adult foot should be, and remain in maturation arrest
This is the video, put out by AQHA, on what is desired in western pleasure, and I for one, think those examples are beautiful movers and athletes. Posted again, so we are back on track, far as the original topic
http://www.horsechannel.com/western-horse-training/aqha-western-pleasure-judging.aspx
Here is a comment from that video site, that maybe many here should place some value on
I coach youth judging teams, and I also ride western pleasure. This is such a great video to show in order to understand how to judge and how to show western pleasure. To everyone that feels the need to criticize the western pleasure horse, let me just say that every riding discipline has an ugly side - English, Dressage, Saddleseat and so on. It is the few in each discipline who choose to train or make their horse perform in such a terrible way that create a bad reputation for their riding discipline. Don’t make comments about a discipline you have not even tried riding or judging before you open your mouth to criticize it.
In case the OP is still reading, this is roughly how every WP thread goes.
There’s also a certain irony in simultaneously quoting hoof research AND ignoring research on rates of skeletal maturation, biomechanics of movement, and muscular development.
In the end though, beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder.
[QUOTE=aktill;7846907]
There’s also a certain irony in simultaneously quoting hoof research AND ignoring research on rates of skeletal maturation, biomechanics of movement, and muscular development.
In the end though, beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder.[/QUOTE]
Rates of skeletal maturation, if used not to start a horse, would mean we don’t ride them until they are 7 or 8 years old.
Obviously that would be like waiting to let a kid play sports until they are in their mid twenties, not before, because “they are not mature yet”.
We have to put perspective to that, the body grows and matures best under the load that it will have to learn to bear once mature.
TX A+M had studies showing that the colts started at two were sounder and better at what they did than those started at three.
Why?
Because they were growing already training to be riding horses, not pasture ornaments.
Just as kids learn to play a sport thru grade school, high school and college before they turn pro, don’t just “start training when mature”.
We have had plenty of colts we raised and started at early two’s and ran at the track, then used as ranch horses ourselves or sold to local people, that we followed all thru their lives and were sound and healthy into their 20’s.
Yes, a few race colts we didn’t start a two’s, they were not mature enough for that, uncoordinated, so we waited with them.
There is really not a one size fits all, you take what you have with each horse in front of you.
It truly is about how you manage yourself or your horses, when it comes to determining how healthy and sound you and your horse will be thru life, short of inherent weakness in conformation, or accidents.
It actually doesn’t mean avoiding work until the horse is fully mature, actually…merely to taylor the work to the age of a the horse. With only a negligible difference between most futurity events and maturity events, that can hardly be considered the case right now.
I’d love to read that study, if you have a link. Was it a part of the large block of research funded at A&M by the AQHA?
Additionally, a willingness on part of a colt to try its hardest at a young age is why lots of people like working with them that young. A 2-3 yr old is a sponge, and will soak things up much quicker on avg than a mature horse. Doesn’t make him ready physically to do that, however.
[QUOTE=aktill;7846906]
In case the OP is still reading, this is roughly how every WP thread goes.[/QUOTE]
That might be so, but it is also true that if any discipline gets a rabid bunch of bashers, then it winds up being western pleasure, and by people that totally ignor the correct standards, have never ridden or trained good western pleasure horses, and many times by people that don’t even ride western
I admit to running games, long time ago, on the horse I used for reining and western riding, and other events, going for hi pt, but hate seeing how games horses are ridden many times, jerked and spurred, to the point that they associate running with pain, and won’t enter the arena
I don’t write endless posts about gymkana horses, or other disciplines outside of those I ride in
I also posted pictures of one of my horses ridden and shown western pleasure, among other events, riding perfectly well, crossing rivers in the mountains, and keeping up just fine. Not all of us never allow our pleasure horses to move out, long trot and gallop, and in fact, the great trainers know this has a benefit.
Horses are smart enough to know as to when they are asked to move like a pleasure horse in the show ring, and when they can just motor on, like any other horse
For those of you that think all a pleasure horse can do is ride around that arena,. come and ride out in the mountains with me, esp some of you riding dressage horses!
How about how some gaited horses are shoed?
Nope, because everyone considers themselves qualified to judge western pleasure, we don’t have peanut rollers, but remarks from the peanut gallery!
[QUOTE=aktill;7846907]
There’s also a certain irony in simultaneously quoting hoof research AND ignoring research on rates of skeletal maturation, biomechanics of movement, and muscular development.
In the end though, beauty is in the eyes of the beer holder.[/QUOTE]
The two go hand in hand actually, and why I added the hoof research.
Also, navicular was mentioned, and attributed to starting horses young, by someone in this thread Wherseas research links navicular, besides the small hoof conformation/body mass relationship, that is not going to change by starting the horse later, to the practice of shoing young horses before their foot is fully developed, and keeping horse shod and confined for long periods of time. I have also seen some cases where pleasure horses are shod in such a manner to encourage the development of navicular, by mis guided people, hopping to enhance movement
My young horses are shown barefoot-yup, even at breed level
Can’t blab on about skeletal maturation, and ignore hoof maturation , as their impact is equally important, far as future soundness
I don’t have the info in front of my face, but the veT at Moore and COmpany who does a lot of lameness exams on high end performance horses, and who is married to the well known Canadian reiner, Shawna Sapergia, states that early work, on a young horse done the right way, actually promotes bone density
If you are quoting the skeletal development as per Dr Deb Bennett, then according to her, no one should even be riding TBs based on how they are built
She divides horses into three main groups
pulling horses
riding horses
race horses
There are many horse that were started correctly as two year olds, and are perfectly fine, never pushed towards some futurity
If you wish to bash those that show two year old pleasure horses, well add reiners to your group. They might not be shown as tow year olds, but if you think that they are started any later, think again! As three year olds they are up in the bridle, working at speed, holding long slides, ridden one handed.
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