Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

[findeight]

Not trying to be snarky but if you would break up your text with paragraphs and use at least some punctuation? It would be so much easier to understand your point of view then looking at a wall of text.

Just because there is discussion and disagreement does not necessarily mean anybody is dissing the entire concept of WP, that they don’t know what they are talking about or have never ridden it.

Same thing with determining appropriate workload for youngsters. There are varying opinions and some good studies supporting them out there. Very little is carved into stone tablets.

[Doctracy]

As a breeder of world champion pleasure horses, both quarter and paint, I have to comment on this. The peanut roller doesn’t really exist any longer, at least at the larger shows. This was a common site back in the 80s, when slower and lower head was better but quality of move men wasn’t as well recognized. Nowadays, probably since the mid-90s, you can be disqualified for head lower than the withers and/or four beat gait.
We also went through a time in the mid to late 90s with a lot of “oil-rig” lopes. This has also disappeared. The horses that win at the big shows have an amazing, true collected walk/jog/lope, a nice extended gait ( not dressage extended, just longer stride) and level to slightly above level head and neck. If you watch these amazing horses in the pasture, even as foals, they move with this incredible gait. Go to You-Tube and watch Radical Rodder or Blazing Hot.

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Charliemyheart;7845015]
If I was horse shopping, which I am not I would pass that one by. I don’t like that one myself. I have seen horse ridden as two year olds sound at twenty, and horses not ridden until four not be sound at six each horse is different. Some people see a two year old paint and cry it is a baby no it is a horse big difference.[/QUOTE]
Totally agreed. This horse would probably not be able to place in western pleasure or trail, even on a small,local level. The quality of movement is good, for a roper or ranch horse. This horse was not bred to western pleasure. Course, long, quick stride, too much knee.
Check out a video of “Vital Signs are Hot” or “Vested Peaches”. These horses are naturals.
I have bred/owned many western pleasure, trail (show), lunge line and western riding world champions or reserve champions. They move like they should from day 1 of their life. I’ve also raised superior pleasure horses, top 20 all-around horse, honor rolls in many events and even raised/trained/showed an APHA Champion. I currently have a full sister to a multiple world/reserve world champion, daughter of Good Machine and her mother. I breed to horses like Born to Be Blazing, Radical Rodder and Lazy Loper. So, I do have some experience with these horses as foals.

[aktill]

Sure, bone reponds to exercise. So does muscle and ligament. Bone also responds to trauma, so not all remodelling is even benficial. There’s plenty of research in the TB world to show the effect of work on young horses, and they’ve even linked some chip fractures specifically to, essentially, overconditioning. They’re also working at paces far in excess of what a WP horse shows at though. http://www.thehorse.com/articles/13210/are-your-horses-bones-tough-enough

Though you may have read Dr Bennetts work, you didn’t pick up her defining 5 types, not three.
http://www.distanceriding.org/php/articles/health/Function.pdf
Type 5 are projects…horses used outside their build type. Far from condemning QHs and TBs, she simply points out where they’re used outside of purpose and classifies them as horsemanship projects. It’s actually even more impressive to take a QH type (racing) build and have them so slow and lifeless…but again, hard isn’t in and of itself commendable.

Clearly, there are those that actually like WP. It’s not illegal, so go for it. Go read the comments on a YouTube video though…it’s not a style with wide appeal outside the discipline. The rest of us hear talk of “no more peanut rollers”, but can’t quite see the emperor’s new clothes.

I’ve taken non horse friends to Spruce, received the Blu Hors Matinee video in my mail a bunch (the dancing horse), and seen reining sell out every year at WEG. Never yet had a non horse friend ooh over a WP video though.

All those events have their abuses, sure. The public isn’t really the best judge of acceptable (see: Walkers). There’s an element of beauty that the average person CAN pick up on however, and I can’t see it in any of the WP videos here.

To each their own though. Might explain the balance of opinion on this thread though.

[jenm]

[QUOTE=Flash44;7841838]
What’s the point of $5000 claimers or cross rail hunter classes??? [/QUOTE]

Uh, cross rail hunter classes are usually for green horses or less experienced riders.

It’s not like horses are forced to learn how to only jump itty bitty jumps and are punished if they don’t slow motion jump like a zombie horse…

[tinah]

Um, yes, they are. Ever heard of a tack noseband? Using draw reins to “teach them thru can work correctly”? Heard people brash about moving up to 3" ? Horses don’t START jumping until somewhere around 3’. Less than that is speed bumps.

[QUOTE=jenm;7847593]
Uh, cross rail hunter classes are usually for green horses or less experienced riders.

It’s not like horses are forced to learn how to only jump itty bitty jumps and are punished if they don’t slow motion jump like a zombie horse…[/QUOTE]

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=aktill;7847567]
The rest of us hear talk of “no more peanut rollers”, but can’t quite see the emperor’s new clothes.[/QUOTE]

This. Anytime this comes up, at least one person says, “but it’s not like that anymore,” and suggests a video or two to prove it. I look at the videos and all I see is the same old thing.

And the fact that people have managed to breed a horse with low head carriage so you don’t have to resort to questionable training techniques to get it is not a compelling argument. The end result is still an issue for many of us. When I watch a western pleasure class, the only thing that comes to my mind is “that’s messed up.” But if you see a western pleasure class and think, “that’s beautiful,” and you can train your horse to do that without resorting to abusive training methods, then really, it’s none of my business what you do.

In the end, in my opinion, it all comes back to what several people posted in the very beginning. Western pleasure is an entirely artificial show ring activity. Horses are bred and trained to do what they do because that is what is rewarded in the show ring. Period.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7847691]
This. Anytime this comes up, at least one person says, “but it’s not like that anymore,” and suggests a video or two to prove it. I look at the videos and all I see is the same old thing.

And the fact that people have managed to breed a horse with low head carriage so you don’t have to resort to questionable training techniques to get it is not a compelling argument. The end result is still an issue for many of us. When I watch a western pleasure class, the only thing that comes to my mind is “that’s messed up.” But if you see a western pleasure class and think, “that’s beautiful,” and you can train your horse to do that without resorting to abusive training methods, then really, it’s none of my business what you do.

In the end, in my opinion, it all comes back to what several people posted in the very beginning. Western pleasure is an entirely artificial show ring activity. Horses are bred and trained to do what they do because that is what is rewarded in the show ring. Period.[/QUOTE]

So is other we do with horses, but it would not be appropriate to go to a, say, saddlebred gaited web site forum and insist they are all abusers for breeding, training, showing and enjoying those strangely moving, goose-stepping horses, how can they not see how terrible that is?

Or any other anyone does, that others don’t see much sense in, or even dislike.

Watching olympic dressage on TV with some roper friends, they really were showing disgust at how “those horses sure dance around so funny and stiff and look so unhappy”.
I wanted to say, you ought to hear what those dressage riders think of your roping horses.

It is ok to say “I don’t really like this or that”, but to keep insisting “I am right and others are idiots for not seeing how terrible what they do is”?

[zipperfoot]

Just watched some YouTube videos of Western Pleasure classes at World Show, Congress etc. Glad to see that the gaits looked more correct (if excruciatingly slow) but most of the horses still had their polls lower than their withers. Most of them still had that “zombie” look. Sorry WP lovers, you’ve still got a ways to go (IMHO).

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7847704]
It is ok to say “I don’t really like this or that”, but to keep insisting “I am right and others are idiots for not seeing how terrible what they do is”?[/QUOTE]

I’ve made one post in this thread on this topic. The only other post I made was one suggesting to kilobright that paragraph breaks would make his/her posts more readable. So lecture someone else, not me.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7847752]
I’ve made one post in this thread on this topic. The only other post I made was one suggesting to kilobright that paragraph breaks would make his/her posts more readable. So lecture someone else, not me.[/QUOTE]

I was responding to the ideas in your post and expanding on those concepts with a general idea, sorry.

I myself don’t see anything in wp, but respect the rights of others to wp and so also expect they will leave me at what I do with my horses.

I say, agreeing to disagree, without being disagreeable, as some come across, is what keeps the world going 'round, for all.

[HappyTalk]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7847498]
As a breeder of world champion pleasure horses, both quarter and paint, I have to comment on this. The peanut roller doesn’t really exist any longer, at least at the larger shows. This was a common site back in the 80s, when slower and lower head was better but quality of move men wasn’t as well recognized. Nowadays, probably since the mid-90s, you can be disqualified for head lower than the withers and/or four beat gait.

We also went through a time in the mid to late 90s with a lot of “oil-rig” lopes. This has also disappeared. The horses that win at the big shows have an amazing, true collected walk/jog/lope, a nice extended gait ( not dressage extended, just longer stride) and level to slightly above level head and neck. If you watch these amazing horses in the pasture, even as foals, they move with this incredible gait. Go to You-Tube and watch Radical Rodder or Blazing Hot.[/QUOTE]

Oh puleeze. I attend Congress every year and I see plenty of horses showing with heads lower than the withers. In fact, I have my Congess copy of the NSBA magazine at my elbow and I see plenty of ads of horses with heads lower than the withers.
Some of the video posted looked like it was shot at the Congress warmup area by the parking lot.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7847508]
Totally agreed. This horse would probably not be able to place in western pleasure or trail, even on a small,local level. The quality of movement is good, for a roper or ranch horse. This horse was not bred to western pleasure. Course, long, quick stride, too much knee.
Check out a video of “Vital Signs are Hot” or “Vested Peaches”. These horses are naturals.
I have bred/owned many western pleasure, trail (show), lunge line and western riding world champions or reserve champions. They move like they should from day 1 of their life. I’ve also raised superior pleasure horses, top 20 all-around horse, honor rolls in many events and even raised/trained/showed an APHA Champion. I currently have a full sister to a multiple world/reserve world champion, daughter of Good Machine and her mother. I breed to horses like Born to Be Blazing, Radical Rodder and Lazy Loper. So, I do have some experience with these horses as foals.[/QUOTE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fNb94uVks&feature=player_detailpage

The problem I see in these conversations, is that many like yourself will see the horses loping in this video, and see a good mover and an athlete. And decry a normal moving horse out in the open, like the other video, as having too much action, too much knee, too long, too quick etc, when what he is doing is moving naturally. of course he wouldn’t win at western pleasure. Why would you want to do that to a normal horse?
What I see, and many others, in this video, is an unnatural head bobbing lope, landing on his front end every stride lame looking horses. What I see are horse with all the natural gait and athleticism bred out of them, so they can be champions at this deformity of an event. And you call it athletic. I think that many in WP have become accustomed to seeing an abnormal gait as normal and special and athletic, when it is so specialized as to be useless.
Sorry, I don’t mean to trash you. I am sure you love your horses and are proud of them. I try to be open minded about this, and not so opinionated, and then I watch one of these videos, and I see nothing but head bobbing, what the hell did they do to those horses lope?. I don’t get it. Not my deal.

[Doctracy]

If a horse is born to do the job he does how is that any more unnatural than a warmblood doing piaffe so or a race horse that runs fast?
My horses walk around the pasture with their heads low. The neck comes out of the withers lower than other types of horse so that they carry their head lower naturally. The young ones are slow legged, flat kneed and don’t have any desire to go faster.
This is just enhanced with proper training, teaching them to lift the back and put more weight on the rear. Same as dressage again. Except these horses wouldn’t enjoy dressage anymore than a saddlebred would enjoy being made to keep its head lower and it’s legs slower to show western pleasure.
If a horse is bred to do a job they will enjoy it. If they aren’t made to do that job and you try to force it, that’s when you get unhappiness and up soundness.
That roan horse is probably quite athletic but it would never be competitive in western pleasure.
Peanut rollers were a terrible stage in western pleasure evolution. At that time there weren’t many horses bred to do pleasure and horses were forced into the low head, slow movement when it really wasn’t natural.
With the breeding of some of the greats, like Hotrodders Jet Set, Invitation Only, at The Investor, Zippo Pine Bar and Zippos Mr Good Bar we were able to create a type of horse that can do western pleasure easily and happily. These horses don’t want to do anything else, although often, you’ll get a foal out of these breedings that really can do it all. One of my World Champion lunge liners is also a Reserve World Champ in pole bending and stakes race!

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7847863]
If a horse is born to do the job he does how is that any more unnatural than a warmblood doing piaffe so or a race horse that runs fast?
My horses walk around the pasture with their heads low. The neck comes out of the withers lower than other types of horse so that they carry their head lower naturally. The young ones are slow legged, flat kneed and don’t have any desire to go faster.
This is just enhanced with proper training, teaching them to lift the back and put more weight on the rear. Same as dressage again. Except these horses wouldn’t enjoy dressage anymore than a saddlebred would enjoy being made to keep its head lower and it’s legs slower to show western pleasure.
If a horse is bred to do a job they will enjoy it. If they aren’t made to do that job and you try to force it, that’s when you get unhappiness and up soundness.
That roan horse is probably quite athletic but it would never be competitive in western pleasure.
Peanut rollers were a terrible stage in western pleasure evolution. At that time there weren’t many horses bred to do pleasure and horses were forced into the low head, slow movement when it really wasn’t natural.
With the breeding of some of the greats, like Hotrodders Jet Set, Invitation Only, at The Investor, Zippo Pine Bar and Zippos Mr Good Bar we were able to create a type of horse that can do western pleasure easily and happily. These horses don’t want to do anything else, although often, you’ll get a foal out of these breedings that really can do it all. One of my World Champion lunge liners is also a Reserve World Champ in pole bending and stakes race![/QUOTE]

So the lope in the video I linked to looks good to you? That is desirable?

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7847880]
So the lope in the video I linked to looks good to you? That is desirable?[/QUOTE]

Which lope? I saw an entire class of horses. Some good, some great and some not so much.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7847903]
Which lope? I saw an entire class of horses. Some good, some great and some not so much.[/QUOTE]

Any of them? They all look lame or something to me. I start wondering about biomechanics and stuff - even if they move that way because they’re bred for it, it doesn’t mean it’s good for them to be bred like that. (Like the trend of halter QH who looked like beef cattle on teacups - they’re bred like that but you’re basically pretty much breeding for foot problems putting that much weight on itty bitty feet.)

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7847788]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fNb94uVks&feature=player_detailpage

The problem I see in these conversations, is that many like yourself will see the horses loping in this video, and see a good mover and an athlete. And decry a normal moving horse out in the open, like the other video, as having too much action, too much knee, too long, too quick etc, when what he is doing is moving naturally. of course he wouldn’t win at western pleasure. Why would you want to do that to a normal horse?
What I see, and many others, in this video, is an unnatural head bobbing lope, landing on his front end every stride lame looking horses. What I see are horse with all the natural gait and athleticism bred out of them, so they can be champions at this deformity of an event. And you call it athletic. I think that many in WP have become accustomed to seeing an abnormal gait as normal and special and athletic, when it is so specialized as to be useless.
Sorry, I don’t mean to trash you. I am sure you love your horses and are proud of them. I try to be open minded about this, and not so opinionated, and then I watch one of these videos, and I see nothing but head bobbing, what the hell did they do to those horses lope?. I don’t get it. Not my deal.[/QUOTE]

You obviously aren’t in the least qualified to judge when a horse is moving correctly,as per your post!
Impossible for a horse to lope slow, yet correct, if he is not off of his front end, shoulders up, and a great deal of western pleasure focus on having a horse engaged from behind.
What judging card do you hold???
ONCE AGAIN<what is seen in the show ring, is an exhibition of degree of difficulty, as it is quite easy to train any horse to perform three correct gaits while moving on
If you wish to see western pl at that level, go to any open all breed show
Outside of that show ring, as western pl horse can move out like any other horse
If you think a horse can perform a three beat lope, while moving slow, without being very collected, shoulders up, hocks engaged, then please show me a video of you doing so.
Just by stating that these horses at upper end, are on their front ends, shows me the source of knowledge spouting out of your mouth!
Going to tell me that the earth is flat next???

[aktill]

http://horsesforlife.com/content/view/1798/1526/

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7848012]
You obviously aren’t in the least qualified to judge when a horse is moving correctly,as per your post!
Impossible for a horse to lope slow, yet correct, if he is not off of his front end, shoulders up, and a great deal of western pleasure focus on having a horse engaged from behind.
What judging card do you hold???
ONCE AGAIN<what is seen in the show ring, is an exhibition of degree of difficulty, as it is quite easy to train any horse to perform three correct gaits while moving on
If you wish to see western pl at that level, go to any open all breed show
Outside of that show ring, as western pl horse can move out like any other horse
If you think a horse can perform a three beat lope, while moving slow, without being very collected, shoulders up, hocks engaged, then please show me a video of you doing so.
Just by stating that these horses at upper end, are on their front ends, shows me the source of knowledge spouting out of your mouth!
Going to tell me that the earth is flat next???[/QUOTE]

Are those Sr. horses in that video loping correctly for a horse?
If that is correct, well, I have never seen a horse in any other discipline bob there head like that every stride,unless they were lame, because they have to pull their front end back off the ground with their head, because of the slowness. Even the top end of the class still do it. And because the knee action is so flat, they land on the front of their front feet with all their weight for that moment of the stride, which may explain why so many go lame in the front end. They may be “correct” in the insulated world of western pleasure these days, but not correct for anything else, that’s for sure.
I don’t need a judging card to know how a horse moves.

I don’t want to get you defensive. Basically what you are saying is, its a western pleasure thing, you wouldn’t understand.