Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7854416]
to answer your specific questions, Wirt

1 What happened to the lope?
ANSWER: It was notched up in difficulty, as any horse can lope correct when moving on. It takes great ability and strength to perform a true three beat lope while going slow Competition has become stronger in ALL disciplines, and the elements to separate the good horses from the great horses demands a higher degree of difficulty in any discipline, including western pl. You can place a class at the light horse level, with horses moving on, often with contact and quality of movement not important, as enough horses won’t be consistent, will miss a lead, etc.
2 Heads down to the knees considered correct, why?

Answer: Wrong again! look at NSBA rules and examples of what is desired
The rule :
If a horse carries his head, so that the tip of the ears are below the level of the withers for more than 5 consecutive strides, that is a disqualification.
At the same time, the highest point on that horse;s frame should be the middle of his back Do some horses still place with ahead too low?-sure as a judge has to place what is in that class that day, and also judge which faults matter more. A horse that gets his head too low at times, or a horse whose speed can’t be rated on a loose rein, or is in- consistent as he goes around that arena
3
/ The slowest horse is what is desired and placed

Answer: wrong again. Correctness of the three gaits is first, and THEN the horse able to perform those correct gaits while moving slow, rated off of seat and legs, is rewarded, as the degree of slowness PLUS correct gaits, esp a three beat lope increases the degree of difficulty

I agree that if you don’t like breed or NSBA level western pl, watch ranch horse pleasure, as pleasure there is geared down in degree of difficulty, just like ranch horse cutting is, compared to NCHA events, allowing the rider to pick up on the reins and help the horse

If you truly find horses with their heads down to their knees placing above a horse that has a correct frame, put your money where your mouth is, esp at World level, as those classes are videoed, and place a forMAL PROTEST
That does two things
a/ it helps to remove bad judges
B/ it proves that your comments have merit, and are coming from someone that actually has the ability to see when horses moving incorrectly are placed.[/QUOTE]

You are telling me that in order to separate the good horses from the great horses is the ability to lope so slow as to be so difficult for the horse it deforms the lope, but as long as it is remains three beats and this in turn is what is now considered correct. And that any horse that is “moving on” will be just okay, but prone to dropping a lead, or not be able to have any quality of movement.
That is quite possibly the most ignorant thing I’ve heard.
Except for the next statement, that the highest point in a collected horse should be the middle of his back.
Anything less than a western pleasure horse is just a dumbed down version, is what you also say. So the WP horse we see today is the epitomy of high school western riding, and the quarter horse at his finest.
I think I am going to be sick.

[KIloBright]

No, I did not say that a horse moving on will drop a lead nor that he cannot have quality of movement. My point is, that at lower level western pleasure, you DO NOT NESSISARLY need the degree of difficulity, as you are not going to have the same caliber of horses, thus there are enough other ways to place that class, besides upping the degree of difficulity and taking quality of movement into account.
You will, at that level, have horses miss leads, be inconsistent, etc and thus a good horse can easily win at those shows just because he is broke, is steady, does not miss a lead. In other words, those types of classes can be placed without increasing the degree of difficulty, but that degree is needed when every horse there is solid on leads, is consistent around the whole ring, moves flat kneed and deep hocked and is able to rate off of seat and leg alone
Don’t twist my words!
How is the degree of difficulty increase in other events?
Well, in jumping, those jumps get made bigger and the course is tightened up
How else are you going to increase the degree of difficulty in western pl at a level where every horse there is solid on leads, transitions, etc???
The lope is NOT deformed, but slowed. Watch any video of a horse and slow it down, as is done in some movies at times, for effect. You will see that head movement at the lope, that is missed when the horse is loping faster. Does not mean it does not happen, just not caught with the eyes
Also, the good ones, that have developed the strength and carriage, do not have that exaggerated head movement

[KIloBright]

I’m sorry, Wirt, but I missed where you show at.
A good horseman recognizes a good horse in any discipline, and I am left wondering why you feel so bound to attack western pleasure
There are many event /disciplines that I am not fond of, but I don’t make it my life mission to critic them, bash them, ect, esp without first at least trying to understand the rules and what the goals are, far as excellence in that discipline
Have you taken a judging clinic in western pleasure?
There are real issues that you can direct your attention to
Soring of TW and pressure shoing
methods used to round up mustangs
Chain bits used in gymkana
Rollkur used to train dressage horses
dressage horses placed, even at high level, that are on their forehand
Rodeo stock and chuck wagon racing
English horses that are ridden with strong bit contact, often behind the vertical

[kdow]

@KIloBright;7856173

I’m sorry, Wirt, but I missed where you show at.
A good horseman recognizes a good horse in any discipline, and I am left wondering why you feel so bound to attack western pleasure

Well, if you look at your own statement - perhaps because good horsemen from other arenas are NOT seeing good horses when they look at what’s winning in western pleasure? I doubt that every single person who doesn’t get WP is a bad horseman.

And as far as “well, we had to make it more difficult” - like many other things we do with horses, WP is a made up event. If someone came up with the idea and after a while it turns out that horses can all do well enough that it’s hard to judge, perhaps the answer is that it isn’t actually a good idea to have as an event and something about the event needs to be changed to make it more of a competition, instead of making the horses do things that don’t look biomechanically sound? (I will be fair and say that WP is not the only thing that struggles with this - lots of stuff at the highest level has people asking if what we are asking the horses to do is a good thing. But “you just don’t understand” is not usually a helpful response to those questions. People accepting “you just don’t understand” is how you end up with things like Big Lick when stuff goes far enough. No one wants more Big Lick if they actually like horses.)

Eta: and since when does someone need to show to be a good horseman? I am sure there are plenty of people out there who work with their horses and haven’t ever stepped foot in a show ring who could horseman circles around many folks, because they just plain know horses.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=kdow;7856339]
Well, if you look at your own statement - perhaps because good horsemen from other arenas are NOT seeing good horses when they look at what’s winning in western pleasure? I doubt that every single person who doesn’t get WP is a bad horseman.

And as far as “well, we had to make it more difficult” - like many other things we do with horses, WP is a made up event. If someone came up with the idea and after a while it turns out that horses can all do well enough that it’s hard to judge, perhaps the answer is that it isn’t actually a good idea to have as an event and something about the event needs to be changed to make it more of a competition, instead of making the horses do things that don’t look biomechanically sound? (I will be fair and say that WP is not the only thing that struggles with this - lots of stuff at the highest level has people asking if what we are asking the horses to do is a good thing. But “you just don’t understand” is not usually a helpful response to those questions. People accepting “you just don’t understand” is how you end up with things like Big Lick when stuff goes far enough. No one wants more Big Lick if they actually like horses.)

Eta: and since when does someone need to show to be a good horseman? I am sure there are plenty of people out there who work with their horses and haven’t ever stepped foot in a show ring who could horseman circles around many folks, because they just plain know horses.[/QUOTE]

Well, if you don’t train and show, you really, no matter how good a horseman you may think you are, just are not that knowledgeable about training and arena competition.

All anyone has to do is go try to compete and will find quickly that is so.

How hard would it be for a world champion trainer and competitor that has been around horses all their life to pick up a horse of another discipline and just do it correctly enough to be good?

Right.

At least those trainers and competitors are used to training and competing and even they know better than thinking they know as much as those doing it.

I remember one very good cowboy saying there was not much to race horses, just get on and let them run.
He was totally convinced of that.
He got a chance and later said, “not my thing, I almost fell off!”.

Horses have a way to keep humans humble.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7856173]
I’m sorry, Wirt, but I missed where you show at.
A good horseman recognizes a good horse in any discipline, and I am left wondering why you feel so bound to attack western pleasure
There are many event /disciplines that I am not fond of, but I don’t make it my life mission to critic them, bash them, ect, esp without first at least trying to understand the rules and what the goals are, far as excellence in that discipline
Have you taken a judging clinic in western pleasure?
There are real issues that you can direct your attention to
Soring of TW and pressure shoing
methods used to round up mustangs
Chain bits used in gymkana
Rollkur used to train dressage horses
dressage horses placed, even at high level, that are on their forehand
Rodeo stock and chuck wagon racing
English horses that are ridden with strong bit contact, often behind the vertical[/QUOTE]

Well, for the record, as kdow points out, I do not see good horses when I look at modern western pleasure.
I single out WP because it has changed so much from what it was when I was showing in it years ago. It has taken the normal gait of a western horse and turned into something false and artificial, in my opinion. It got slower and slower, heads got lower and lower, it got uglier and uglier, until they had to change the rules for judging it so it would get back the other way. So maybe heads are coming up, and gaits are speeding up, but I believe what we see now is still left over crap from when it was at its worse. And everyone is saying it is better now. But what is in the ring today is still what evolved from the peanut roller days, and the parameters of that is still used as the base of training.
You say they only increased the degree of difficulty, which leaves only the very best of the best able to accomplish it. Leaving the majority of the horses struggling.
Then when you say;
“… the highest point on that horse;s frame should be the middle of his back”
That is where I just shake my head, because that statement is void of any validity.
It is in fact physiologically impossible for the horse, unless he is bucking. And that right there is actually what the lope looks like to me, for most WP trying to get to this perfect, but artificial form of the lope. Like bucking in slow motion. So if that is actually the belief, that the highest form of collection in a horse is when is back is the highest point, is what the premise is, it is no wonder these horses are trained the way they are, and end up looking the way they do.
What I am saying is that possibly the very premise of WP today is bankrupt of sound principles.
So it would do me no good to go to a judging clinic and learn to judge what is not even based in sound principles.
As I said a while back. I am surrounded by AQHA and APHA western pleasure trainers. And they have what they tell me are good movers, and great horses. And I see every day how they are trained and ridden. So this is not in my imagination. I see all the contortions they go through to get to this ideal that is artificial and simply made up by like minded people who are convinced this is what a good horse should be able to do. Simply to get a horse to lope as slow as he possibly can, and if he can, he is considered a good horse.
I simply cannot comprehend the illogical of it.

[aktill]

What Wirt said. I’m tempted to do a stop frame gait analysis and put the claim of “non mangled lope” to the test.

[KIloBright]

When ![]( spoke of the highest point being the middle of the back, that does not mean that the head is dropped to the knees, nor carried below what NSBA rules state, nor to any great degree, and certainly not on horses whose conformation does nor create a natural level topline way of going to begin with
The horse has to have shoulders up and be rounded, with middle of back just a fraction higher, but head still not too low, as per rule
I’m also not stupid and know that level of head carriage is related to collection, only as far as the final component on a horse moving correctly from the back,and will depend on how that horse’s neck ties into his body
Conversely, every horse with his head up, is not necessarily collected either, as the following picture shows in a dressage horse performing high level. (not my comments, but that of an experienced English person, whose book I have and from where the example is taken

[IMG]http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/KiloBright/ahow%20pictures/Form.jpg)

I ride in winter at a barn where both reiners and jumpers ride. Just like you see some poor techniques, in training western pleasure horses, i sure see my share being used on reiners and English horses!
I do believe a person can’t really judge an event that they know nothing about.
I for instance, wonder about the built up shoing on Saddlebreds and am left wonder how they remain sound. I also know that they use tail nicking, and many of those horses have to wear a tail harness when not shown
In the end, I am really really puzzled by all those that criticize western pleasure but seem oblivious to those horses that truly are trained by questionable methods as standard
Because those horses move with great animation in the showring, they then must all be happy, moving ‘normal’ , trained with great kindness!
Can it be Wirt, that part of your problem is that you rode western pleasure at a lower level, and now have sour grapes, knowing you could not compete in that event any longer?
Why not take a few clinics with a GOOD western pleasure trainer, and learn what is good and bad, and develop an eye that can truly judge a western pleasure horse?
I have taken English clinics, working cowhorse clinics, reining , trail, western pl HUS and even dressage, plus some judging clinics, took part in the Alberta Horse Improvement evaluation program, and that kind of education does not hurt anyone, but on the contrary, creates a person that becomes more objective, informed, instead of one just with a dogmatic bias, and often with a touch of personal agenda

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7857227]
I for instance, wonder about the built up shoing on Saddlebreds and am left wonder how they remain sound. I also know that they use tail nicking, and many of those horses have to wear a tail harness when not shown
In the end, I am really really puzzled by all those that criticize western pleasure but seem oblivious to those horses that truly are trained by questionable methods as standard[/QUOTE]

Why would you assume that I’m not opposed to those things, as well? Big Lick Walkers are an abomination, cutting tails should be illegal, and all horses should be shown flat shod. And you can assume that I also oppose other types of abusive training or treatment that I failed to mention.

BUT, you can bet that people who show ASBs on thick pads and with set tails don’t think what they are doing is abusive. So, the belief of a person who is heavily involved in any particular equine activity that that activity is not unnatural or abusive isn’t exactly the gold standard by which that activity should be judged.

[Wirt]

“Can it be Wirt, that part of your problem is that you rode western pleasure at a lower level, and now have sour grapes, knowing you could not compete in that event any longer?”

What an incredibly arrogant thing to say.

The middle of the back slightly higher than the withers?

What, are you riding sheep?

[aktill]

This thread is starting to cross a line with personal insinuations…

[Wirt]

I have no intention of getting personal.
The bottom line is this, in a nutshell.
When some valid observations by other horsemen, or as in the original post, are given on questioning why WP horses go the way they go, the answer is usually; you are just uneducated, unqualified and don’t know what a good horse is.

Okay. So that is pretty much the end of the conversation.
Carry on.

[aktill]

Was thinking more the one directed at you, Wirt. Shame we can’t have a discussion of facts here.

[downen]

This thread seems to be a circular train wreck…

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=downen;7857602]
This thread seems to be a circular train wreck…[/QUOTE]

So what you’re saying is that this thread is exactly like your average COTH discussion? :lol:

[Bluey]

You know, to tell someone you don’t like what they do with their horses is like telling someone you think their wife/husband is ugly.
Then keep insisting you are right and tell them why you think so.

No, that won’t go over very well and you know, I am sure if some of those so critical of others that they have to become offensive in their insistence were to tell us what they do with their horses, I am sure someone else can tell them exactly all they don’t like about that and why.

Well, we can say we don’t like something, if asked say why, but to keep trying to browbeat someone because we don’t like what they do is really, lets say, not … polite.

What happen to understanding different strokes for different people?
If we want to be respected ourselves, we really should respect others’s rights to what each one of us likes.

[RatWrangler]

The problem I have is not so much that I don’t like it–to each his own and all that–but the same scenario plays out in real life that is happening in this thread.
If one is going to have a serious conversation about horse training, sooner or later there are concepts related to the anatomy and physiology of the horse, and that’s where the problem lies for me.

Unless a horse is seriously deformed, the middle of its spine is never going to be higher than its withers. A horse’s spine is not flexible like a cat’s. It is very very hard to get a horse that is built with its withers lower than its pelvis to be truly off the forehand. Guess how most stock breeds are built?

Horses’ necks do move up and down when they canter. However, a horse in true collection will move its neck less, as the energy is being created in the hind end–true collection means that the horse flexes its SI joint and “sits”, creating a greater bend in the hind leg and a much further reach beneath itself. A horse that is nodding like a rocking horse at the canter is most likely using the muscles beneath it’s neck to lift its front end up. Look at these horses when they put their head up in the field and they’ll probably show a hugely developed underneck muscle and no crest. A horse in true collection will develop muscles over its topline and crest, as the energy created in the hind end enable the horse to lift its front end up, not throw it.

In true collection, the hind leg flexes noticeably at the hock and lands under the horse’s body. In the videos that have been posted, I saw very few horses whose hind feet landed in front of their stifle. Call it slowing down, compacting, compressing, whatever, but it’s not true collection.

Some other food for thought–the ideal for WP as stated in these threads is a horse that works off the seat and leg with no reins. If that is true, why does every video from big, national level warm-up arenas show nearly all the riders constantly jerking on their horses mouth, riding in rollkur (yes, nose tucked to the chest is rollkur, whether is western or English) or single draw reins on curb bits(!) Looks like a lot of hand riding to me.

If someone wants to ride like this, that’s up to them–other than the fact that I’d never sell them a horse–but I’m not going to discuss training with them when they don’t understand physiology or anatomy of the horse.

[NoSuchPerson]

Very nice post, RatWrangler. I appreciate the information and explanation.

[aktill]

Bluey, your sentiments would sound nobeller if you didn’t have your own pet subjects that you pick incessantly at other people about (vaquero pictures, grass hackamores etc).

Glass houses, stones and all that…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=aktill;7857995]
Bluey, your sentiments would sound nobeller if you didn’t have your own pet subjects that you pick incessantly at other people about (vaquero pictures, grass hackamores etc).

Glass houses, stones and all that…[/QUOTE]

Were you not the one saying that trainers talking to trainers was one place we could have those debates?

When someone asks about those, why not tell them what we know and see what else others know?

Context is important.

I think that here we were past explaining and giving opinions a while back, down to saying others were bad because they didn’t agree with what we think, when it was not even the discipline those against it really know about.

It is western pleasure and if they want their horses to travel backwards pulling at their tails the whole class, calling that a horse moving forward with impulsion, really, we may disagree, but it is their class.

I don’t think we should be keep calling them out because we think they are “wrong” in what they do or consider right for their horses and discipline, but I guess others do and that is ok too.