Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7851648]
The more you talk, the more it becomes clear that it would be helpful if you had some other to do than be critical of those that are talking about what is correct and why and why not, you know, stay on topic, not just pick on the posters that are participating on the topics being discussed.[/QUOTE]

Again, I am being told what is correct is a horse loping with his head and neck bobbing up and down.
It is obvious from the hundreds of videos of WP horses in major events that this is how they lope, but I am being told it is correct. And no one yet has explained to me why the head bobbing takes place in a majority of WP trained horses.
So I am not being critical for the sake of being critical.
In fact, I have done everything I can to stay very on topic, and be very specific in my question. And the question is being avoided.
Perhaps what has become known has "correct’ is not correct at all for the horse, but a popular belief that is inherently incorrect.
I have never read a description of a correct lope where it states that a horses head and neck should go up and down with every stride. Yet it continues to be the norm.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7851601]
I only got to 1:54 but have to say, do you want a critique of that run, starting with the first abrupt, not fluid stop, mouth open and on to leaning in some parts of the circle, then seem to be missing his change behind for two-three strides at 1:52?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I spotted the lead glitch, went back and saw the open mouth. Overall however I thought it was a good demo of one of AQHA’s “working” disciplines. You really should watch the cattle work–it’s fun to watch and not something you see in many shows.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7851672]
Here’s my last video (I think). This one is a cutting horse–chosen because cutting horses work independently (no rider cues) with low heads (I was curious about how low) and lots of collection. This horse’s ear tips never go below his withers, even when he’s getting way down working the cow. Good examples of working off the hocks too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFj0zRopn74

Obviously, WP horses aren’t supposed to be working cowhorses or cutting horses, but saying that WP horses are collected, up under themselves and/or moving that way because they’ve been bred for it is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Still, it’s not up to me to determine the current style of WP horse. I don’t have to participate–and I don’t.[/QUOTE]

While right in principle, never say never, because plenty of cutting and working cowhorses do get down on their cattle, especially in the turns.
Some times, they end up with their heads way low and still turning inside out and well balanced and staying with their cow:

http://www.pinterest.com/jas3373/cutting-horses/

I had a judge show me how they considered the wp lope not a four beat one and what else they looked for, but I would not know, of course, not what I do either.
Still, I don’t consider that wrong, just because I don’t see what they judge their specialty by.

[propspony]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7851626]
Bluey, the more you talk, (or write) it becomes more clear to me you that you have a lot more opinion, and think highly of your own opinion, than you have actual experience.[/QUOTE]

Really? Cause I saw the same thing Bluey saw, including the late change behind and the tense, mouth gaping stop.

HOWEVER

It’s not fair to post a video of a working cow horse and say: "THIS is what WP should be, because it SHOULDN’T be. They’re apples and oranges, and they need to stay apples and oranges. That’s why there is ranch pleasure…

A beautiful pleasure horse, is a beautiful thing to me. (I’m not saying that a cow horse isn’t, it’s just a different kind of beautiful)

I guess what Charlie took as browbeating is my frustration at seeing something beautiful, turned into a crabbing, canted, head bobbing, lame looking caricature of what it’s supposed to be.

To me, this guy was everything a pleasure horse should be. (and yes, that’s a stallion going bridleless in a crowded arena without so much as a neck rope, she’s holding on to his mane…)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=So045DvjZZI

Sigh…

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7851688]
Again, I am being told what is correct is a horse loping with his head and neck bobbing up and down.
It is obvious from the hundreds of videos of WP horses in major events that this is how they lope, but I am being told it is correct. And no one yet has explained to me why the head bobbing takes place in a majority of WP trained horses.
So I am not being critical for the sake of being critical.
In fact, I have done everything I can to stay very on topic, and be very specific in my question. And the question is being avoided.
Perhaps what has become known has "correct’ is not correct at all for the horse, but a popular belief that is inherently incorrect.
I have never read a description of a correct lope where it states that a horses head and neck should go up and down with every stride. Yet it continues to be the norm.[/QUOTE]

You’ve been very patient waiting for an answer! Yes, the horse’s head/neck normally moves up and down with every stride during the canter (lope) and gallop, also during the walk, but very little during the trot. Maybe the reason it looks so exaggerated on WP horses during the lope is because they’re striding so slowly. Hope this helps.
Zip

[propspony]

It also has something to do with core strength and balance. In the older horses, and the ones that are kept properly in shape, the head bobbing is greatly diminished.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7851672]
Here’s my last video (I think). This one is a cutting horse–chosen because cutting horses work independently (no rider cues) with low heads (I was curious about how low) and lots of collection. This horse’s ear tips never go below his withers, even when he’s getting way down working the cow. Good examples of working off the hocks too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFj0zRopn74

Obviously, WP horses aren’t supposed to be working cowhorses or cutting horses, but saying that WP horses are collected, up under themselves and/or moving that way because they’ve been bred for it is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Still, it’s not up to me to determine the current style of WP horse. I don’t have to participate–and I don’t.[/QUOTE]

A cutting horse’s eye should be level with the cow’s eye. Part of the game is for the horse to intimidate the cow by staring it down. Stallions are particularly good at this.

Since most cutting horses are in the 14.2-14.3 range, that would put their ear tips level with the withers while cutting the average size cow in competition.

It’s also silly to compare a cutting horse on a cow to a western pleasure horse. The two disciplines couldn’t be further away from each other, performance-wise. And, that is not a recent breeding, training or showing development. It’s always been that way.

[Go_Fish]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7851688]
Again, I am being told what is correct is a horse loping with his head and neck bobbing up and down.
It is obvious from the hundreds of videos of WP horses in major events that this is how they lope, but I am being told it is correct. And no one yet has explained to me why the head bobbing takes place in a majority of WP trained horses.
So I am not being critical for the sake of being critical.
In fact, I have done everything I can to stay very on topic, and be very specific in my question. And the question is being avoided.
Perhaps what has become known has "correct’ is not correct at all for the horse, but a popular belief that is inherently incorrect.
I have never read a description of a correct lope where it states that a horses head and neck should go up and down with every stride. Yet it continues to be the norm.[/QUOTE]

I believe the AQHA World Show is going on right now. Not sure when the WP is scheduled. Probably a safe bet that you can watch the WPs on-line. Give it a go and then come back to us and let everyone know what you think.

[findeight]

I looked. WP is next week. Jr horses early, Sr horses later with Sr. WP wrapping the show up next Sat afternoon. Think eliminations start, maybe, Thursday? Can’t remember. The schedule comes right near the top when you Google AQHA Worlds.

If there is a live stream, perhaps somebody can start a thread to follow it like we do with other big events on other forums. Then everybody can comment and discuss exactly the same horse/performance/trainer instead of posting videos supporting their own opinion.

Its the only way to really discuss what going on and what is being rewarded today in that arena.

[TheHunterKid90]

[QUOTE=findeight;7841587]
Tie the head down and take away impulsion, spur stops to avoid touching the reins and the head lifting. Results in itty, bitty trot steps and 4 beat lopes.

You CAN train properly using mainstream techniques but that requires starting with the right horse and takes time. Faster to slap the gimmicks on.

But ask me what I really think… I am also saddened by the advent of the sliding stop and spins with nose between ankles. Gee, wonder how they teach them that one.[/QUOTE]

For the record, some trainers do tie their faces down and bite them off the bit but there ARE also many reiners that naturally go low headed. When you relax in a maneuver and it’s correct and their conformation allows them -they will drop their head.
We have one gelding that was a freaky stopper from day one, nose between his knees and he just folds in half. We taught him how to stop and we taught him how to pick his shoulders up, thus making that front end free so they don’t jam their front end, they peddle instead. (Makes it a lot prettier not to mention dozens less injuries to tendons and suspensories.) but really, no one taught him to have crazy style like that…however I think it happens when the horse relaxes and rounds it’s back in the stop with its shoulders elevated.
I, personally don’t focus on “style” but rather mechanically correct maneuvers and when it’s correct and the horse enjoys his job, he relaxes, and you’d be amazed at where that head goes.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;7852479]
For the record, some trainers do tie their faces down and bite them off the bit but there ARE also many reiners that naturally go low headed. When you relax in a maneuver and it’s correct and their conformation allows them -they will drop their head.
We have one gelding that was a freaky stopper from day one, nose between his knees and he just folds in half. We taught him how to stop and we taught him how to pick his shoulders up, thus making that front end free so they don’t jam their front end, they peddle instead. (Makes it a lot prettier not to mention dozens less injuries to tendons and suspensories.) but really, no one taught him to have crazy style like that…however I think it happens when the horse relaxes and rounds it’s back in the stop with its shoulders elevated.
I, personally don’t focus on “style” but rather mechanically correct maneuvers and when it’s correct and the horse enjoys his job, he relaxes, and you’d be amazed at where that head goes.[/QUOTE]

I don’t argue that point, fact that was my point. Start with the correct horse-physically and mentally-train it right. That’s true in any discipline. Also true it’s quicker and arguably easier to gimmick them up, especially when it’s the wrong horse for the job, it cannot naturally do it and must be forced. Admitting that can be quite inconvenient for trainers, breeders and others producing more of the same in any discipline.

[TheHunterKid90]

[QUOTE=findeight;7853053]
I don’t argue that point, fact that was my point. Start with the correct horse-physically and mentally-train it right. That’s true in any discipline. Also true it’s quicker and arguably easier to gimmick them up, especially when it’s the wrong horse for the job, it cannot naturally do it and must be forced. Admitting that can be quite inconvenient for trainers, breeders and others producing more of the same in any discipline.[/QUOTE]

And that’s why our little 4 year old reining reject is a lovely lesson and trail horse. He’s broke to death, sired by one of the most well known sires in reining history and yet we know that means nothing if he cannot physically do his job well. He’s got heart and he wants to try for you but the body doesn’t follow through, so he has a lovely job that he’s good at. You can breed for exactly what you want but you also need to step back and realize that your student may have all the genes to do the job you’re asking him but it’s just not for him.

[KIloBright]

[QUOTE=TheHunterKid90;7852479]
For the record, some trainers do tie their faces down and bite them off the bit but there ARE also many reiners that naturally go low headed. When you relax in a maneuver and it’s correct and their conformation allows them -they will drop their head.
We have one gelding that was a freaky stopper from day one, nose between his knees and he just folds in half. We taught him how to stop and we taught him how to pick his shoulders up, thus making that front end free so they don’t jam their front end, they peddle instead. (Makes it a lot prettier not to mention dozens less injuries to tendons and suspensories.) but really, no one taught him to have crazy style like that…however I think it happens when the horse relaxes and rounds it’s back in the stop with its shoulders elevated.
I, personally don’t focus on “style” but rather mechanically correct maneuvers and when it’s correct and the horse enjoys his job, he relaxes, and you’d be amazed at where that head goes.[/QUOTE]

There are also reiners that 4 beat in that slow small circle
Far as abusive methods, again happens in ALL disciplines
One year at the Canadian Supreme, a premier event for reiners and working cowhorses, a reiner was disqualified, as he was seen in the warm up, hitting his horse between the ears with a bat, in the stop, to get him to stop with that fashionable low head
Some trainers using fencing in a very aggressive manner, in training a horse to stop
Watched a dual approved reining at the Appaloosa World (ApHC and NRHA )
One horse had his rear legs buckle after the sliding stop, so that he sat down like a dog, almost Please, if you want to dissect western pleasure, then lets have an open forum on abusive training and flaws in all disciplines!

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7849894]
I have asked some very particular questions, and I get nothing but platitudes about just letting people do their own thing.
I am talking about what a normal gait is in western horse.

I will try again.
What happened to the lope, and is the loping I have described,that I see in most WP classes today, considered correct? Why did it change?
Why do we think horses with their heads down by their knees is better than horses with their poll at least level, or the highest point.
When did slowness become the hallmark?[/QUOTE]
If you don’t like it, watch the ranch horse pleasure classes instead.

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7850932]
I don’t know what you consider “true collection”?

I am trying to look these horses up from the article.
Here is one relative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LD5MyiHpahM

Here is another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ywOgwzOOq28

Are these examples of true collection?

I am trying to get educated and be open minded, but almost everywhere I look it is the same freaking head bobbing at the lope!. That is not right or normal for a horse at the lope. It is a lope that has been f##ked with!. What is the deal.?
You can tell me that there have been so many improvements over the California head set, and those old “stiff” horses. This is it? Really? This is what a good mover is in the WP world?

I know, I am ignorant and uneducated and obviously have no training as a judge.
I must not know a good lope from nothing.[/QUOTE]
The first one is not Brittany Pine, it’s a sister. Second one I’ve not even heard of, he’s a palamino son of VP? Maybe with the same name as a QH.
Check out Born to Be Blazing, especially the way he moves naturally in the paddock.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U19I4Ww9dE4

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7853744]

Check out Born to Be Blazing, especially the way he moves naturally in the paddock.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=U19I4Ww9dE4[/QUOTE]

I’ve got very little complaint with that horse’s movements and head carriage. Personally, I find a bit higher head carriage more appealing and if his show ring lope was just a little more like his free lope in the paddock, I would like it more.

Even if all the competitors looked like that, I probably still wouldn’t be a big fan of WP because I just like the look of a Ranch Horse Pleasure-type mover a lot better. But, if all the competitors looked like that, I could go from watching WP and thinking, “what the hell is wrong with these people?” to watching WP and thinking, “not my thing, but pretty horses.”

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=propspony;7851726]
Really? Cause I saw the same thing Bluey saw, including the late change behind and the tense, mouth gaping stop.

HOWEVER

It’s not fair to post a video of a working cow horse and say: "THIS is what WP should be, because it SHOULDN’T be. They’re apples and oranges, and they need to stay apples and oranges. That’s why there is ranch pleasure…

A beautiful pleasure horse, is a beautiful thing to me. (I’m not saying that a cow horse isn’t, it’s just a different kind of beautiful)

I guess what Charlie took as browbeating is my frustration at seeing something beautiful, turned into a crabbing, canted, head bobbing, lame looking caricature of what it’s supposed to be.

To me, this guy was everything a pleasure horse should be. (and yes, that’s a stallion going bridleless in a crowded arena without so much as a neck rope, she’s holding on to his mane…)

Sigh…[/QUOTE]

This is a nice horse, however he is allowed to leak out behind in this video with the occasional four beat. I suspect if the rider was in a saddle she would have been able to do more to keep him strong behind.
As far as training techniques and frame here’s a paragraph written by a top trainer/judge:
The purpose of this exercise is to emphasize balance, strength, complete extension of the legs and use of the back while keeping it rounded. Although the horse is in a working trot, he is still expected to maintain a proper frame, which is a show-ring frame with the horse’s head and neck as level as possible.

One of the most important things when long trotting is that the horse is responsive to my spur, leg and seat cues. So when long trotting, I will check with the horse to see if he is listening to my cues. For example, I might vary by asking him to ease his rhythm down a bit and do a slower extension, and then ask him to speed up to a faster extension.

This exercise is a real attention-getter and helps to harness the body and the mind as one. It really emphasizes obedience in a greener horse who is not accustomed to going into a working trot without breaking into a lope or slowing down. This exercise is a way to tell him, “You go the pace I ask you to go. No more. No less.”
[flickr 28429325@N03 72157623042419475]
Shoulder and Hip

In this exercise, I focus on a shoulder or hip. I will have him either pivot around or move in any direction I ask.

For the shoulder, I will place my outside leg a little forward and ask him to move his shoulder. For the hip, my leg is behind the relaxed leg position. I usually do this exercise with two hands on the reins, and I am typically in the middle of the arena or riding across it diagonally.

The purpose of this exercise is making sure the horse is obedient to my legs and my requests. If I find an area of resistance, then I know I need to focus longer on that."
Nothing I read sounds unreasonable or cruel.

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7851729]
You’ve been very patient waiting for an answer! Yes, the horse’s head/neck normally moves up and down with every stride during the canter (lope) and gallop, also during the walk, but very little during the trot. Maybe the reason it looks so exaggerated on WP horses during the lope is because they’re striding so slowly. Hope this helps.
Zip[/QUOTE]
This is so true! In fact, I had a young horse, who eventually ended up on the Honor Roll for both pleasure and hunter under saddle. As a yearling, he had a lot of up/down motion, even totally free in the paddock. He also couldn’t hold a lead that well. Then, as a late two year old he started to level out. He was simply not strong enough as a youngster to stay level but he very much wanted to go slow. I think its a combination of the extremely slow stride and the hocks tracking up so far that creates this motion in the young pleasure horse.
I’ve never had a pleasure horse do well as a two year old and really have no interest in it. In fact, I do believe its hard on the hocks for the two year olds to carry riders in a slow,correct frame and so I basically avoid it. My horses come on as 3-6 year olds but most of them continue on as amateur senior horses, some well up into their teens.

[KIloBright]

to answer your specific questions, Wirt

1 What happened to the lope?
ANSWER: It was notched up in difficulty, as any horse can lope correct when moving on. It takes great ability and strength to perform a true three beat lope while going slow Competition has become stronger in ALL disciplines, and the elements to separate the good horses from the great horses demands a higher degree of difficulty in any discipline, including western pl. You can place a class at the light horse level, with horses moving on, often with contact and quality of movement not important, as enough horses won’t be consistent, will miss a lead, etc.
2 Heads down to the knees considered correct, why?

Answer: Wrong again! look at NSBA rules and examples of what is desired
The rule :
If a horse carries his head, so that the tip of the ears are below the level of the withers for more than 5 consecutive strides, that is a disqualification.
At the same time, the highest point on that horse;s frame should be the middle of his back Do some horses still place with ahead too low?-sure as a judge has to place what is in that class that day, and also judge which faults matter more. A horse that gets his head too low at times, or a horse whose speed can’t be rated on a loose rein, or is in- consistent as he goes around that arena
3
/ The slowest horse is what is desired and placed

Answer: wrong again. Correctness of the three gaits is first, and THEN the horse able to perform those correct gaits while moving slow, rated off of seat and legs, is rewarded, as the degree of slowness PLUS correct gaits, esp a three beat lope increases the degree of difficulty

I agree that if you don’t like breed or NSBA level western pl, watch ranch horse pleasure, as pleasure there is geared down in degree of difficulty, just like ranch horse cutting is, compared to NCHA events, allowing the rider to pick up on the reins and help the horse

If you truly find horses with their heads down to their knees placing above a horse that has a correct frame, put your money where your mouth is, esp at World level, as those classes are videoed, and place a forMAL PROTEST
That does two things
a/ it helps to remove bad judges
B/ it proves that your comments have merit, and are coming from someone that actually has the ability to see when horses moving incorrectly are placed.

[aktill]

This thread makes me sad.