Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Appsolute;7849927]

I would like to see examples of WP WINNERS who have their ears above the withers.

2012 - Jr. world WP winner - this is typical of the examples I can find. And what gait has all four feet down at once? A very slow walk?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7850771]The rule is actually concerning tips of the ears, not poll.
Look back at pictures from from the late 80s to early 90s and you will see many with noses literally dragging the ground.[/QUOTE]

Okay so maybe it has gotten better? I am still having a hard time finding winners with years at or above withers - the winner posted above has its ears a good 6" below the withers… but at least its not 18" below I guess?

[zipperfoot]

Looking at the AQHA handbook, it’s pretty evident that many of the rules are ignored in judging western pleasure. Some of the specific “faults to be scored according to severity”–

Excessive slowness in any gait, loss of forward momentum (resulting in an animated and/or artificial gait at the lope)

Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers)

Excessive nosing out

Horse appears sullen, dull, lethargic, emaciated, drawn or overly tired

Overly canted at the lope (when the outside hind foot is further to the inside of the arena than the inside front foot).

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Doctracy;7850797]
Here’s an interesting article about one of our greats from the 90s. I went to school with the Kavens and have had 4 foals by VP, one of whom went to Denmark and one who placed high in the lunge line at the world show. Tina and Bill trained horses with true collection. Bill teaches at a community college now and Tina had to retire due to injury.
ht
tp://www.blackcreekcrossing.com/articles/VParticlesouthernhorseman.pdf[/QUOTE]

I don’t know what you consider “true collection”?

I am trying to look these horses up from the article.
Here is one relative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LD5MyiHpahM

Here is another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ywOgwzOOq28

Are these examples of true collection?

I am trying to get educated and be open minded, but almost everywhere I look it is the same freaking head bobbing at the lope!. That is not right or normal for a horse at the lope. It is a lope that has been f##ked with!. What is the deal.?
You can tell me that there have been so many improvements over the California head set, and those old “stiff” horses. This is it? Really? This is what a good mover is in the WP world?

I know, I am ignorant and uneducated and obviously have no training as a judge.
I must not know a good lope from nothing.

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7849894]
I have asked some very particular questions, and I get nothing but platitudes about just letting people do their own thing.
I am talking about what a normal gait is in western horse.

I will try again.
What happened to the lope, and is the loping I have described,that I see in most WP classes today, considered correct? Why did it change?
Why do we think horses with their heads down by their knees is better than horses with their poll at least level, or the highest point.
When did slowness become the hallmark?[/QUOTE]

When we figured out that a truly collected horse, round in the back, engaged in the rear with “lift” and suspension, being ridden on slack reins solely by the rider’s legs and body can be one if the most amazing “pleasures” in the world.
Btw, one of my pleasure horses one an APHA championship. He was a state high pleasure horse in OK, state high point halter horse, National Pinto Champion amateur high point, high point NE TX all-around amateur, western riding state champion, Novice eventer AND my first fox hunting horse, first flight.
Who says great pleasure horses don’t have versatility? He was 16.2, 1300 pounds at age 2 and one of the most enjoyable horses I’ve ever owned. The year I won his Championship amd my all-a rounds, he was actively breeding a large book of mares. Did I mention showmanship, horsemanship and trail? I have no doubt he could rope or do reining, I just didn’t have the knowledge in those areas. He did win a bunch of reining after I sold him and his full sister, at 16.2, also won a bunch reining.
One of my World Champions also won reserve in goat tying and pole bending. Another is a Res World Ch trail and Western Riding, another was on the honor roll for pleasure and hunter under saddle.
My point is that these horses are such a pleasure to ride and be around and many can do lots of other things.

[Riverotter]

@beau159;7842405

My barrel horse can move off instantly from a stand still.

You don’t need a piaffe for that.

What I am trying to say is there is lot of “useless” things we do in competition for the sole purpose of competing in that particular event. You can pick out “useless” things in every sport. I was just playing off of Aktill’s comment of things not being “real world”. Of course lots of these things aren’t “real world” because we AREN’T in the real world … we are in the competition world!

There is moving off and then there is moving off. I have no doubt your barrel horse can leap out forward from zero to thirty - it is not the same thing.

Watch this, watch the legs, and you will see all kinds of dressage, including a working piaffe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-TvUnmUP1k

Dressage is kind of like ballet - first you learn the movements, then you dance, except in dressage you no longer take the stage. What with mounted warfare being a thing of the past, the training has turned into an end in itself. but yes, every motion does have a real world application.

[Doctracy]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7850932]
I don’t know what you consider “true collection”?

I am trying to look these horses up from the article.
Here is one relative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LD5MyiHpahM

Here is another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ywOgwzOOq28

Are these examples of true collection?

I am trying to get educated and be open minded, but almost everywhere I look it is the same freaking head bobbing at the lope!. That is not right or normal for a horse at the lope. It is a lope that has been f##ked with!. What is the deal.?
You can tell me that there have been so many improvements over the California head set, and those old “stiff” horses. This is it? Really? This is what a good mover is in the WP world?

I know, I am ignorant and uneducated and obviously have no training as a judge.
I must not know a good lope from nothing.[/QUOTE]

Love the yellow one, don’t recognize him or his trainer. He has an exceptional lope with hind leg tracking way underneath and plenty of “hang time”
Brittany, ridden by Tina, is an awesome mare. This video is Don in her two year old year and I can tell she lacks some of the strength that she developed later. Still good enough to get famous! She certainly won a ton! And deservedly,too.
So,yes, these are excellent examples of great pleasure horse movement.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7850932]
I don’t know what you consider “true collection”?

I am trying to look these horses up from the article.
Here is one relative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LD5MyiHpahM

Here is another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ywOgwzOOq28

Are these examples of true collection?

I am trying to get educated and be open minded, but almost everywhere I look it is the same freaking head bobbing at the lope!. That is not right or normal for a horse at the lope. It is a lope that has been f##ked with!. What is the deal.?
You can tell me that there have been so many improvements over the California head set, and those old “stiff” horses. This is it? Really? This is what a good mover is in the WP world?

I know, I am ignorant and uneducated and obviously have no training as a judge.
I must not know a good lope from nothing.[/QUOTE]

Don’t confuse “head set” with a horse moving correctly in self carriage.

A cutter will be any but higher headed and “in the bridle”, or peanut rolling, or piaffing and still be self carrying and as collected as any other horse out there.

A properly executed reiner’s spin is a horse nicely collected and in self carriage, just as a pirouette can be.

Self carriage and collected means the whole horse is handing it’s mass in space in such a way it can move in the most efficient way, for the task at hand and to the one watching, the horse can do that in several different ways, with more or less engagement behind and more or less up in front.

The other extreme is a horse leaving it’s hindend behind and pulling itself with it’s front end, a considerable part of it’s weight there, u-necked, low back horses, not working over their back.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7850957]
Don’t confuse “head set” with a horse moving correctly in self carriage.

A cutter will be any but higher headed and “in the bridle”, or peanut rolling, or piaffing and still be self carrying and as collected as any other horse out there.

A properly executed reiner’s spin is a horse nicely collected and in self carriage, just as a pirouette can be.

Self carriage and collected means the whole horse is handing it’s mass in space in such a way it can move in the most efficient way, for the task at hand and to the one watching, the horse can do that in several different ways, with more or less engagement behind and more or less up in front.

The other extreme is a horse leaving it’s hindend behind and pulling itself with it’s front end, a considerable part of it’s weight there, u-necked, low back horses, not working over their back.[/QUOTE]

That is all very nice.
Up in front? What happened to that part? I am still waiting on an explanation for the head bobbing.

[Pocket_Pony]

WTH is a lunge line competition and do you mean to tell me there’s a world championships of lunging?

[propspony]

Yep

https://youtube.com/watch?v=bebj3o6eWo0

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7851002]
WTH is a lunge line competition and do you mean to tell me there’s a world championships of lunging? [/QUOTE]

You know, like Devon in hand classes, horses too young to ride can be shown and evaluate on how they move and as prospects, on the longe line.

I have never seen those classes, but know of them.

[NoSuchPerson]

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7851002]
WTH is a lunge line competition and do you mean to tell me there’s a world championships of lunging? [/QUOTE]

:lol: I’m sorry. I’m only laughing because that is pretty much exactly what I said the first time I heard about the lunge line competition. Except maybe I used “WTF” instead of “WTH.”

[Pocket_Pony]

Wow. Just wow. What will they think of next? :eek:

[aktill]

G

[QUOTE=Wirt;7850932]

I know, I am ignorant and uneducated and obviously have no training as a judge.
I must not know a good lope from nothing.[/QUOTE]

Ooo,ooo! I can help. http://vimeo.com/107210406

Why anyone would want anything less than a “go get something done” lope is beyond me. Even though Les’ horse has a little dose of the show buzz, he’s still all business.

THIS is western, even if artificial. Where’s the western in WP? (On a related note, why does WP have bitting rules?)

[Fourbeats]

Some of these videos remind me of why I finally gave up WP 10 years ago. I prefer a horse that tracks up at the walk and trot and shows a nice free shoulder instead of moving like it has sore front feet. I don’t know what to say about those four beat canters. :eek:

[zipperfoot]

Here’s a video of a horse competing in the Senior Working Cow Horse class at the AQHA World Show. Notice his head position and how he tracks up under himself, even at a walk. A far far cry from what you see in WP. Be sure to watch to the very end, where he does the cattle work–it shows the “working” application of those maneuvers seen in Reining classes. Beautiful to watch, IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_shsnEdxx4

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=zipperfoot;7851587]
Here’s a video of a horse competing in the Senior Working Cow Horse class at the AQHA World Show. Notice his head position and how he tracks up under himself, even at a walk. A far far cry from what you see in WP. Be sure to watch to the very end, where he does the cattle work–it shows the “working” application of those maneuvers seen in Reining classes. Beautiful to watch, IMHO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_shsnEdxx4[/QUOTE]

I only got to 1:54 but have to say, do you want a critique of that run, starting with the first abrupt, not fluid stop, mouth open and on to leaning in some parts of the circle, then seem to be missing his change behind for two-three strides at 1:52?
He already had the first change kind of strained behind, more of a hop, so was expecting something similar.

Then, that is not a reining class and it is indeed not a WP class, so why would anyone expect that kind of performance?

No one is saying WP is any other than WP, just as five gaited is not dressage, or polo is not cutting.

The point some seem to miss is that, if they like something or not, they need to realize that, for whatever “it” is, it may indeed be right, for that.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7851601]
I only got to 1:54 but have to say, do you want a critique of that run, starting with the first abrupt, not fluid stop, mouth open and on to leaning in some parts of the circle, then seem to be missing his change behind for two-three strides at 1:52?
He already had the first change kind of strained behind, more of a hop, so was expecting something similar.

Then, that is not a reining class and it is indeed not a WP class, so why would anyone expect that kind of performance?

No one is saying WP is any other than WP, just as five gaited is not dressage, or polo is not cutting.

The point some seem to miss is that, if they like something or not, they need to realize that, for whatever “it” is, it may indeed be right, for that.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, the more you talk, (or write) it becomes more clear to me you that you have a lot more opinion, and think highly of your own opinion, than you have actual experience.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7851626]
Bluey, the more you talk, (or write) it becomes more clear to me you that you have a lot more opinion, and think highly of your own opinion, than you have actual experience.[/QUOTE]

The more you talk, the more it becomes clear that it would be helpful if you had some other to do than be critical of those that are talking about what is correct and why and why not, you know, stay on topic, not just pick on the posters that are participating on the topics being discussed.

[zipperfoot]

Here’s my last video (I think). This one is a cutting horse–chosen because cutting horses work independently (no rider cues) with low heads (I was curious about how low) and lots of collection. This horse’s ear tips never go below his withers, even when he’s getting way down working the cow. Good examples of working off the hocks too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFj0zRopn74

Obviously, WP horses aren’t supposed to be working cowhorses or cutting horses, but saying that WP horses are collected, up under themselves and/or moving that way because they’ve been bred for it is, in my opinion, simply wrong. Still, it’s not up to me to determine the current style of WP horse. I don’t have to participate–and I don’t.