Please explain the Western Please Quarter Horse "peanut roll"

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7848661]
I find it humorous that many people on this thread are decrying the “peanut roller” when they obviously don’t know what a true peanut roller is.

I also find it humorous that dozens of people on these types of threads rake western pleasure over the coals when the vast majority of them have never sat on a western pleasure horse in their lives.[/QUOTE]

The rest of us find it funny that you folks split hairs enough to NOT consider what’s winning in the ring right now to be peanut rollers. I’m sure that today’s horses, in your mind, are so far from that term that it seems silly. We just grab the big brush and apply it to any WP horse that has never tracked up in its life.

Also, I’ve never sat on a big lick walker either, but I have the same desire to do so as to sit on a WP horse. I prefer to feel a horse that has joy in its job.

[KIloBright]

Good points by Go Fish
I’m not even going to go back and read some of these posts, because most of those that attack western pleasure have not an iota of an idea, and are eons away from judging that event, nor can they recognize A great moving horse from Those that are not moving correctly
They come up with the same old same old comments,and old catch phrases , using coined words, just like those that cling to anything advertized as ‘natural’
Great horseman like Bob Avila, who won twice World’s greatest horseman, see, understand and know the technical difficulty that allows a good western pl horse to lope slow, yet correct. he wrote an article in Horse and Rider, concerning putting some western pleasure training on reiners to clean up their lope
I guess those that de cry western pl here know more then people like Bob Avila
We no longer have peanut rollers in upper end western pleasure, but we sure as heck still have a bunch of parrots in the peanut gallery repeating worm out phrases, without any knowledge of what they are saying, any more than a parrot!

[aktill]

I have to commend you on your vitriol. It’s dang impressive.

[propspony]

A. Reining is even worse for me than WP, cruelty-wise.
B. Some of us also spend a lot of time at big QH shows
C. Maybe the phrases are “Worn Out” because they’re true.

[propspony]

Take a guess which of these trainers, train horses to go on to over fences work…

http://www.equinechronicle.com/changing-trends-in-hunter-under-saddle/

I’m adding this because it does point out the problem of the rule book saying one thing, but judges rewarding something else entirely.

[zipperfoot]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7849135]

We no longer have peanut rollers in upper end western pleasure, [/QUOTE]

It must be a matter of semantics then, because it’s easy to find “upper end” western pleasure horses with their polls lower (sometimes WAY lower) than their withers.

I just can’t see how a horse can be collected and working off its hind end with its head/neck in that position. Biomechanically it just doesn’t make sense.

[Charliemyheart]

[QUOTE=propspony;7849160]
A. Reining is even worse for me than WP, cruelty-wise.
B. Some of us also spend a lot of time at big QH shows
C. Maybe the phrases are “Worn Out” because they’re true.[/QUOTE]
Then what do you like dressage? Why do you go to the shows just show so you you can brow beat it’s competitors.

[propspony]

Huh? I said nothing about dressage.

I also said nowhere that I browbeat anyone.

Confused.

[californianinkansas]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7849135]
Good points by Go Fish
I’m not even going to go back and read some of these posts, because most of those that attack western pleasure have not an iota of an idea, and are eons away from judging that event, nor can they recognize A great moving horse from Those that are not moving correctly
They come up with the same old same old comments,and old catch phrases , using coined words, just like those that cling to anything advertized as ‘natural’
Great horseman like Bob Avila, who won twice World’s greatest horseman, see, understand and know the technical difficulty that allows a good western pl horse to lope slow, yet correct. he wrote an article in Horse and Rider, concerning putting some western pleasure training on reiners to clean up their lope
I guess those that de cry western pl here know more then people like Bob Avila
We no longer have peanut rollers in upper end western pleasure, but we sure as heck still have a bunch of parrots in the peanut gallery repeating worm out phrases, without any knowledge of what they are saying, any more than a parrot![/QUOTE]

I’m sure that you have a lot of interesting things to say to all of us. I would love to be able to easily read your posts. Unfortunately, the lack of proper punctuation (i.e., periods) gives me a headache, so I just skim over your posts.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=californianinkansas;7849379]
I’m sure that you have a lot of interesting things to say to all of us. I would love to be able to easily read your posts. Unfortunately, the lack of proper punctuation (i.e., periods) gives me a headache, so I just skim over your posts.[/QUOTE]

Generally, some comments about how other disciplines are bad as well.

Next, some other comments about great horsemen that believe in modern WP, and train wonderful horses we don’t appreciate.

Finally, a general attack on the person(s) making the comments rather than the points being made.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Go Fish;7848711]
I have plenty of photos of my family’s horses that look just like this. What’s your point?

As Bluey mentioned, there were plenty of problems with this style of riding. One is not better or worse than the other. They are just different.

Horse sports evolve. That’s true of every discipline. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean the rest of a particular discipline has to lock step in line.[/QUOTE]

I posted photos of what WP used to look like.
In response, I get a long and rambling lecture from Bluey about something else, and upside down necks in Ed Connels books on stock horses.
That’s another conversation.
I didn’t post photos of upside down necks.

I am not comparing WP to other disciplines.
I am comparing WP to what WP used to be, and asking what has happened to the lope.
My question is still the same. What happened?
Was there a conscious decision at any time by anyone that ever said, you know I think horses look better like this with their heads very low, and the gait very slow, and we like it when there head and neck bobs up and down when they lope? We now call those good movers. Was there a conscious decision to change the 1-2-3,1-2-3 rhythm of the lope to a 1-2-3…(long pause, hang time, wait for it) 1-2-3…etc. And the horse humps along like he his hoping.
You can say that is what you don’t want, and that doesn’t win, so why are most of the classed filled with horses that move like that?
People here have said that the training is better now, the reason I get is that the older type horses were stiff necked and braced? And there are drawing of not WP horse to prove it. ??
So, nothing wrong here, I guess. WP is fine the way it is, and you are happy with how the horses look at the lope. Maybe not because it is good, but because that is what is winning, and some judging geniuses are telling us it is correct.
You think there would be some self auditing of a sport you love. But seems like everyone just goes with what everyone else is doing, until what comes out the other end is a complete distortion.

[Flash44]

@propspony;7848815

Who the H*** expects a Zip’s Chocolate Chip bred horse to be a barrel horse? Is there now a 10D? LOLOLOL!!!

My filly’s father is by ZCC. She’s 5/8ths TB, and I can tell you right now, a three legged dog with a full bladder could beat her. In fact, she would WANT it to beat her because, well… the only thing running fast ever got you was sweaty and out of breath! I have yet to meet a ZCC that WASN’T of this opinion! ROFL!!

Ha, I have a ZCC that is barrel bred on the bottom! She is exactly as you describe, and is a fabulous show horse.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7849812]
I posted photos of what WP used to look like.
In response, I get a long and rambling lecture from Bluey about something else, and upside down necks in Ed Connels books on stock horses.
That’s another conversation.
I didn’t post photos of upside down necks.

I am not comparing WP to other disciplines.
I am comparing WP to what WP used to be, and asking what has happened to the lope.
My question is still the same. What happened?
Was there a conscious decision at any time by anyone that ever said, you know I think horses look better like this with their heads very low, and the gait very slow, and we like it when there head and neck bobs up and down when they lope? We now call those good movers. Was there a conscious decision to change the 1-2-3,1-2-3 rhythm of the lope to a 1-2-3…(long pause, hang time, wait for it) 1-2-3…etc. And the horse humps along like he his hoping.
You can say that is what you don’t want, and that doesn’t win, so why are most of the classed filled with horses that move like that?
People here have said that the training is better now, the reason I get is that the older type horses were stiff necked and braced? And there are drawing of not WP horse to prove it. ??
So, nothing wrong here, I guess. WP is fine the way it is, and you are happy with how the horses look at the lope. Maybe not because it is good, but because that is what is winning, and some judging geniuses are telling us it is correct.
You think there would be some self auditing of a sport you love. But seems like everyone just goes with what everyone else is doing, until what comes out the other end is a complete distortion.[/QUOTE]

Some still don’t get it, it is not about them what others choose to do and how they do it.

For anyone not growing up with football, is just barely a notch over boxing as a legal way for people to beat on each other with intent to do harm.
Yet to a whole country, it is the best, most fun and interesting game to watch and even participate.

It doesn’t matter what some choose to do, someone else won’t like it and that is fine.
What is questionable is to keep harping at it as if we were the only enlightened ones, everyone else of course blind and an idiot for not seeing how terrible what they do is.

Every one of us has a right to our opinions, a right to express them, but maybe not to keep trying to insult others with them.

Insisting, not that we don’t like it, but that it is wrong in our opinion and so the others are ignorant for not seeing that can eventually be seen as insulting.

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=Bluey;7849867]
Some still don’t get it, it is not about them what others choose to do and how they do it.

For anyone not growing up with football, is just barely a notch over boxing as a legal way for people to beat on each other with intent to do harm.
Yet to a whole country, it is the best, most fun and interesting game to watch and even participate.

It doesn’t matter what some choose to do, someone else won’t like it and that is fine.
What is questionable is to keep harping at it as if we were the only enlightened ones, everyone else of course blind and an idiot for not seeing how terrible what they do is.

Every one of us has a right to our opinions, a right to express them, but maybe not to keep trying to insult others with them.

Insisting, not that we don’t like it, but that it is wrong in our opinion and so the others are ignorant for not seeing that can eventually be seen as insulting.[/QUOTE]

I have asked some very particular questions, and I get nothing but platitudes about just letting people do their own thing.
I am talking about what a normal gait is in western horse.

I will try again.
What happened to the lope, and is the loping I have described,that I see in most WP classes today, considered correct? Why did it change?
Why do we think horses with their heads down by their knees is better than horses with their poll at least level, or the highest point.
When did slowness become the hallmark?

[KIloBright]

Wirt
I posted photos of what WP used to look like.
Yup, and those horses were as far removed from the ability of a western pleasure hrose today, as a reiner today from days gone by
EVERY EVENT at upper end has become more specialized and difficult and that includes western pleasure.
At one time in those good ole days, horses that could not be competitive in halter were put into western pl, or western pleasure was an entry type event for other disciplines.
The event could be,and was won on horses that merely could perform three gaits, moving on, with quality of movement and self carriage not needed
reiners won with hard stops, front feet jammed into the ground, head up and mouth open
The point that this thread was started by someone who states, 'i don’t show western but…???
I try not to appear as an expert judging and takinga part other disciplines I don’t ride in or show in, but western pl seems to be an open for all, thus you wonder why I consider the source of those negative comments coming fromt he peanut galley!
Come reveal yourselves that are taking western pleasure apart, and tell me where and what you show in. only fair to be able to counter and take your disciplines apart as well, finding all and any negative examples, and ignoring the good and correct examples
Please post as to what you find wrong with that video posted by AQHA on western pl standards
Know where I often find these negative comments coming from? People that show on the open circuit on horses that they can’t rate speed on a loose rein, doing laps around any good moving horse, and then instead of trying to understand how to train and ride a good western pleasure horse, they go on the attack
Yup, but they love those barrel horses, janked and spurred and batted, mouth open, tiedown on, two hands on a severe bit

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7847788]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2fNb94uVks&feature=player_detailpage

The problem I see in these conversations, is that many like yourself will see the horses loping in this video, and see a good mover and an athlete…
What I see, and many others, in this video, is an unnatural head bobbing lope, landing on his front end every stride lame looking horses. [/QUOTE]

Funny, we just had this conversation at our barn - the place I am currently is a mix of discipline, but really only one “Real” WP horse.

Other boarders said “your horse is LAME - look how he lopes” and his owner came back with “you just do not know how a western pleasure horse goes!”

Now, the horse ins’t 100% - but I have been there when the vet has- and he is pretty sound. His lope isn’t the result of lameness - its a “WP lope” - that happens to look lame to people not familiar with WP.

Just like the horses in this video - to me, they look LAME. To a WP person - I guess they look like “good movers”.

Also - I would like to see examples of WP WINNERS who have their ears above the withers.

2012 - Jr. world WP winner - this is typical of the examples I can find. And what gait has all four feet down at once? A very slow walk?

[Wirt]

[QUOTE=KIloBright;7849906]
Wirt
I posted photos of what WP used to look like.
Yup, and those horses were as far removed from the ability of a western pleasure hrose today, as a reiner today from days gone by
EVERY EVENT at upper end has become more specialized and difficult and that includes western pleasure.
At one time in those good ole days, horses that could not be competitive in halter were put into western pl, or western pleasure was an entry type event for other disciplines.
The event could be,and was won on horses that merely could perform three gaits, moving on, with quality of movement and self carriage not needed
reiners won with hard stops, front feet jammed into the ground, head up and mouth open
The point that this thread was started by someone who states, 'i don’t show western but…???
I try not to appear as an expert judging and takinga part other disciplines I don’t ride in or show in, but western pl seems to be an open for all, thus you wonder why I consider the source of those negative comments coming fromt he peanut galley!
Come reveal yourselves that are taking western pleasure apart, and tell me where and what you show in. only fair to be able to counter and take your disciplines apart as well, finding all and any negative examples, and ignoring the good and correct examples
Please post as to what you find wrong with that video posted by AQHA on western pl standards
Know where I often find these negative comments coming from? People that show on the open circuit on horses that they can’t rate speed on a loose rein, doing laps around any good moving horse, and then instead of trying to understand how to train and ride a good western pleasure horse, they go on the attack
Yup, but they love those barrel horses, janked and spurred and batted, mouth open, tiedown on, two hands on a severe bit[/QUOTE]

At the very end of the AQHA video, the bay horse that had just won, had a more normal looking lope, ridden in the fashion of WP class. If that is was the norm, that would be great. It is shown as the ideal, except that the ideal is hardly ever reached, and what people are doing to try and get there is what bugs me.
But maybe it is in poor training of other horses trying to look like that, that results in the over exaggerated head bobbing, humping and hopping lope that is so prevalent at regular AQHA shows.
As for me. I am a very eclectic horse trainer. Most everything I enjoy training or taking part in involves the three natural gaits of the horse. I don’t like seeing when those gaits are deformed, and I stay away from those things. I showed WP back in the 80’s. It was just starting to go peanut roller then. I saw them deform the lope. Maybe its getting better at the top now. I am not sure.
Like I said, I am surrounded by AQHA and APHA WP trainers. What I see everyday done to the way these horses lope makes me sad. And it is mostly so the amateur owner can get on and make it on a loose rein at least one direction around the arena without falling apart, and try to get a ribbon.
Indecently, I used to show in Reining. Same thing. What is done to young horses these days in the pursuit of reining futurities really disgust me. And the amount of drugs used and lameness is remarkable.

[propspony]

[QUOTE=Wirt;7849894]

When did slowness become the hallmark?[/QUOTE]

Well, the prevailing opinion over on the Pleasurehorse.com forums, seems to be:

“When the trainers discovered most amateurs couldn’t maintain that lope on their own, and thus created a cash cow.” shrug

Me, personally, I love the lope exhibited in western riding. Why can’t THAT be what we’re aiming for in the pleasure pen? Oh well…

[Doctracy]

The rule is actually concerning tips of the ears, not poll.
Look back at pictures from from the late 80s to early 90s and you will see many with noses literally dragging the ground.

[Doctracy]

Here’s an interesting article about one of our greats from the 90s. I went to school with the Kavens and have had 4 foals by VP, one of whom went to Denmark and one who placed high in the lunge line at the world show. Tina and Bill trained horses with true collection. Bill teaches at a community college now and Tina had to retire due to injury.
http://www.blackcreekcrossing.com/articles/VParticlesouthernhorseman.pdf