Sure, but someone was talking about recent examples of western pleasure classes and what wins and that’s a fairly major show so it has some good examples of the standard western pleasure horse.
I give up
I do believe that the same old human thing is going on here-if you don’t understand something, then bash it
I don’t think anyone down on western pleasure wants a true answer to the Op’s question, nor have it explained as to what is considered ‘good’ and correct
Instead of discussing the video AQHA put on on western pleasure, a concentrated effort is made to seek out the worst example that can be found
I don’t see dull lifeless eyes on a good western pl horse trained correctly, but a relaxed calm horse that is happy, as someone is not constantly into the mouth of that horse
Yes, flat kneed movement is desired, versus high knee action, if you have a problem with that, ride a horse with high kneed action that is also likely quick strided, versus slow legged
Personally, if you like high knee action, at least buy a gaited horse, as they are smooth in spite of lots of knee
And, pocket Pony, you are not the only one that rides outside of the show ring, nor puts the horse first.
I have probably ridden more mountain miles and ridden more extreme trails, than many here, Bighorn Sheep hunting with hubby and packing into wilderness
No, I do not take my show horses on hunts or pack trips, as it would be stupid to hobble them and sharp shoe them for late fall hunts or chance scarring, but all of my show horses do get trail ridden, including day rides in the mountains during the summer and early fall
Showing a horse that can be competitive in western pleasure is not mutually exclusive to using that horse in many other activities, including some pretty extreme trail riding, nor in having a happy equine partner.
Like you, I have taken clinics in many events. I have also shown in a wide spectrum of events over the years, and can tell you with great certainty that there are western pl horses that are trained in a kind manner, that are happy, sound and who enjoy their job
Far as Mellisa Sexon’s comment on the topline-maybe she did not phrase it in the best way, but this link shows what she means, and what is shown in her book
Are you going to tell me that this horse is on his forehand?
Yes, it;s Sky’s Blue Boy, a HUS stallion, but then that is what Mellisas’s book is on The topline is in common with western pl, and HUS has also received it’s fair share of bashing here!
The pic of the Appaloosa, Spot My Blue Boy,In that link, probably better shows what she means, and it certainly is not some pretzel, with head way low, making it 'bio mechanically impossible, as that IS NOT WHAT IS MEANT in her statement
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Sky's+Blue+Boy+%2B+pic&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&imgil=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%3A%3BmD-xMZrUrlEciM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fpedigree_allegro.php&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%3A%2CmD-xMZrUrlEciM%2C_&usg=__u3qRrDvaobZQKLstNgrhd5VcCLU%3D&biw=1616&bih=830&ved=0CDYQyjc&ei=kq5nVMeEJ5DQiALMsoDIDA#facrc=&imgdii=&imgrc=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%253A%3BmD-xMZrUrlEciM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fstallions%252Fskysblueboy3.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fpedigree_allegro.php%3B643%3B447
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7859211]
Far as Mellisa Sexon’s comment on the topline-maybe she did not phrase it in the best way, but this link shows what she means, and what is shown in her book
Are you going to tell me that this horse is on his forehand?
Yes, it;s Sky’s Blue Boy, a HUS stallion, but then that is what Mellisas’s book is on The topline is in common with western pl, and HUS has also received it’s fair share of bashing here!
The pic of the Appaloosa, Spot My Blue Boy,In that link, probably better shows what she means, and it certainly is not some pretzel, with head way low, making it 'bio mechanically impossible, as that IS NOT WHAT IS MEANT in her statement
https://www.google.ca/search?q=Sky's+Blue+Boy+%2B+pic&newwindow=1&tbm=isch&imgil=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%3A%3BmD-xMZrUrlEciM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fpedigree_allegro.php&source=iu&pf=m&fir=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%3A%2CmD-xMZrUrlEciM%2C_&usg=__u3qRrDvaobZQKLstNgrhd5VcCLU%3D&biw=1616&bih=830&ved=0CDYQyjc&ei=kq5nVMeEJ5DQiALMsoDIDA#facrc=&imgdii=&imgrc=xfM0PCZ2j2tZ0M%253A%3BmD-xMZrUrlEciM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fstallions%252Fskysblueboy3.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.janhare.com%252Fpedigree_allegro.php%3B643%3B447[/QUOTE]
By now I think it should be obvious that, no matter what you say, other than hanging your head low and accept the designation of wp being at best second class horsemanship to whatever they do with their horses, that must be so perfect, nothing else will silence those that just-don’t-like-wp.
They think it is the most horrible thing ever, which is fine, their opinion, but they also insist that you better agree with them.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7859259]
By now I think it should be obvious that, no matter what you say, other than hanging your head low and accept the designation of wp being at best second class horsemanship to whatever they do with their horses, that must be so perfect, nothing else will silence those that just-don’t-like-wp.
They think it is the most horrible thing ever, which is fine, their opinion, but they also insist that you better agree with them.[/QUOTE]
All I want is for someone to accurately explain to me what is ACTUALLY going on with the horse’s anatomy (not stuff you think in order to ride, like the middle of the back being the highest point) and how those things are mechanically sound for the horse.
Like the look or not, a horse that is going properly in a collected way as dressage approaches it can be described in a way that biomechanically makes sense - you can understand why the head and neck position changes as the hind use changes, based on how everything is connected together. So far WP people are using all kinds of terms but not actually explaining how the horse’s movement changes to allow the slower pace in a way that is not putting weird stresses on the horse’s body. I am not a judge, I am not an expert, so it is quite possible I am not seeing something. That is why I am asking for someone who does know WP to explain what is actually going on.
So far that hasn’t happened and any questions are being met with “you just don’t understand” or “you aren’t a real horseman” or “they are bred that way.” (And as mentioned previously, I do not accept the breeding line as proof it is a sensible way for the horses to move when you consider physics, because we have ample evidence of humans selectively breeding animals for physical traits that aren’t good for the animals at all, just because it produces a certain look. Humans are quite happy to breed crippled animals if they think they can justify it somehow. Like all the dog breeds that have breathing problems because of smushed up faces.)
[QUOTE=Wirt;7858958]
But can you please explain what is meant by “shoulders up” or “lifted shoulders” and also “flat knee”? (I know, I want to see if you think it means what I think it means)[/QUOTE]
Still waiting for the answer here, also definition of “deep hocks.” How about “slow-legged”? Isn’t that just a WP way to say “slow”?
Couldn’t view the facebook video–would appreciate other videos if available.
Thanks.
[QUOTE=kdow;7859294]
Like the look or not, a horse that is going properly in a collected way as dressage approaches it can be described in a way that biomechanically makes sense - you can understand why the head and neck position changes as the hind use changes, based on how everything is connected together. [/QUOTE]
The above statement made me laugh out loud…you don’t get out much, do you?
You are making the assumption that all horses are built exactly alike and they are all destined for the same job.
I find plenty of flaws with the way dressage approaches collection. Clean up your own house before you start shaking your dusty rug at other disciplines.
Deep hocks come way up underneath the horses belly when loping
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7859197]
I give up
I do believe that the same old human thing is going on here-if you don’t understand something, then bash it
If you’re addressing me, I will say that I bash problems with all disciplines equally, so it isn’t a matter of hating WP and thinking something else is perfect. All disciplines have their problems. This topic is specifically about WP, so that is what I’m addressing.
I don’t think anyone down on western pleasure wants a true answer to the Op’s question, nor have it explained as to what is considered ‘good’ and correct
Instead of discussing the video AQHA put on on western pleasure, a concentrated effort is made to seek out the worst example that can be found
I don’t see dull lifeless eyes on a good western pl horse trained correctly, but a relaxed calm horse that is happy, as someone is not constantly into the mouth of that horse
Yes, flat kneed movement is desired, versus high knee action, if you have a problem with that, ride a horse with high kneed action that is also likely quick strided, versus slow legged
Personally, if you like high knee action, at least buy a gaited horse, as they are smooth in spite of lots of knee
Actually, I like flat-kneed action and certainly have nothing against it . . . or any other way that is natural for the horse to move.
And, pocket Pony, you are not the only one that rides outside of the show ring, nor puts the horse first.
I never said I was.
I have probably ridden more mountain miles and ridden more extreme trails, than many here, Bighorn Sheep hunting with hubby and packing into wilderness
Good for you.
No, I do not take my show horses on hunts or pack trips, as it would be stupid to hobble them and sharp shoe them for late fall hunts or chance scarring, but all of my show horses do get trail ridden, including day rides in the mountains during the summer and early fall
I think that is wonderful and refreshing.
Showing a horse that can be competitive in western pleasure is not mutually exclusive to using that horse in many other activities, including some pretty extreme trail riding, nor in having a happy equine partner.
I never said they were mutually exclusive; and in fact, I said that some horsemen like to show, and some showmen are good horsemen. One does not necessarily negate the other, although one also does not automatically include the other.
Like you, I have taken clinics in many events. I have also shown in a wide spectrum of events over the years, and can tell you with great certainty that there are western pl horses that are trained in a kind manner, that are happy, sound and who enjoy their job[/QUOTE]
Then good for you for being a good horseman and I’m glad you see horses and people that are happy in their work. I was commenting on the photos shown.
I do still stand by my comments that I am all for training horses in a manner that is biomechanically correct for their conformation. There is a truth about how horses are designed to move. Just because someone doesn’t agree with it or some conference of judges has decided that such movement is not the movement du jour doesn’t mean that the truth of the matter does not exist.
[QUOTE=Bluey;7859259]
By now I think it should be obvious that, no matter what you say, other than hanging your head low and accept the designation of wp being at best second class horsemanship to whatever they do with their horses, that must be so perfect, nothing else will silence those that just-don’t-like-wp.
If you’re talking about me, I have never claimed to be anywhere close to perfect, and my horses are far from it. I am always striving to improve and learn more and part of learning more is learning about biomechanics and anatomy and movement. If you want to change the subject and talk about rollkur and draw reins and tiedowns and any other sort of training methodology that may be used in other disciplines, I would still say the same thing. Ride the horse the way that most goes with his conformation and movement and natural ability. When you strip away a horse’s natural movement in favor of something that someone somewhere arbitrarily decided was en vogue, I will have a problem with that.
They think it is the most horrible thing ever, which is fine, their opinion, but they also insist that you better agree with them.[/QUOTE]
I don’t insist anyone agree with me. This is a forum where all opinions are welcome, no? I think I’ve heard you say that before, Bluey. Surely it applies in all instances, not just those you agree with? Or perhaps we should not forget that you have seen everything and done everything and you are the queen of perfection when it comes to horses.
[QUOTE=kdow;7859294]
All I want is for someone to accurately explain to me what is ACTUALLY going on with the horse’s anatomy (not stuff you think in order to ride, like the middle of the back being the highest point) and how those things are mechanically sound for the horse.
Like the look or not, a horse that is going properly in a collected way as dressage approaches it can be described in a way that biomechanically makes sense - you can understand why the head and neck position changes as the hind use changes, based on how everything is connected together. So far WP people are using all kinds of terms but not actually explaining how the horse’s movement changes to allow the slower pace in a way that is not putting weird stresses on the horse’s body. I am not a judge, I am not an expert, so it is quite possible I am not seeing something. That is why I am asking for someone who does know WP to explain what is actually going on.
So far that hasn’t happened and any questions are being met with “you just don’t understand” or “you aren’t a real horseman” or “they are bred that way.” (And as mentioned previously, I do not accept the breeding line as proof it is a sensible way for the horses to move when you consider physics, because we have ample evidence of humans selectively breeding animals for physical traits that aren’t good for the animals at all, just because it produces a certain look. Humans are quite happy to breed crippled animals if they think they can justify it somehow. Like all the dog breeds that have breathing problems because of smushed up faces.)[/QUOT
Again, look at the HUS pic I posted,as it seems Having the back a fraction higher, not even noticeable to the average eye, is somehow construed to mean
some weird frame with the hips dropped and head way down-not true.
I posted a good example of what is meant by Melissa Sexton’s comment, so all you have to do is click on links, and there is absolutely no problem with biomechanics -but no, you don’t want to see
Are you a dressage Princess?
Vets have spoken out concerning the harm caused by Rolkur, and I posted an example, how even upper level dressage horses are sometimes on their forehand.
What is so great for a horse, that is up in a double bridle,tight rein contact. head and neck cranked to the max, horse frothing at the mouth. Oh yes, means the horse is happily on the bit. I wonder about the biomechanics of breathing!
Horses are penalized for not working with a quiet and closed mouth( not held shut ), and relaxed jaw in western pleasure
If you knew anything about collection, you would know that head carriage is only the final component, with a horse moving correctly,ridden back to front, more legs than hands, and that the level of the head and neck is also dependent as to how that neck ties into the rest of the body-ie conformation
Pony, you are talking about fads, and many of those fads resulted because the animal was never tested 'form to function-Ie hALTER horse NEVER RIDDEN and dogs being shown, not worked.
Thus we have the extreme table topline and teacup muzzles in Arabian halter horse
German Shepards where working dogs for the RCMP had to be imported from Europe,as all working ability was lost, not to mention hip dyspepsia
Alfgan dogs with the head bred down so narrow that the brain cavity could not hold a normal size brain
Sorry, does not apply to western pleasure horses,a s they are ridden, 'form to function
Just like cowhorses were selected for many years for cow sense, so have western pl horses been selected from a line of horses that have a natural level topline, more flat kneed and slow legged way of moving
I have started colts that were both western pl bred and working bred. The good western pleasure horses, right from the first, want to engage the rear and step up into the lope from behind, versus trotting into it out of faster and faster forward momentum.
The level topline is natural for them. They are trained correctly through strength building exercises and a firm basis of developing body control-and yes, long trotting is used, as is the counter canter
No use posting any more judging videos that explain as to what should be rewarded by competent judges, as closed biased minds don’t really want to either see, understand, or even give credit to a good western pl horse, trained correctly
All those horses in the WP warmup with the draw reins pulling their nose back to their chest are in rollkur too, no matter what else you want to call it
KiloBright, I and several others have already mentioned this, but I’ll try one more time. Your giant walls of text are very difficult to read. I’ve stopped reading them for this reason. If you would just put paragraph breaks in between the paragraphs, it would make your posts much, much easier to read. You post so much that it seems like you really are interested in having people read what you have to say, so I don’t understand why you won’t do this one simple thing to make your posts more readable.
And back to the topic at hand…
aktill’s comment about doing a gait analysis made me wonder if someone already had, so I did a Google Scholar search and found a couple of things.
This is the link to a 2010 doctoral dissertation at Auburn University, “Kinematic Analysis of the Collected and Extended Jog and Lope of the Stock Breed Western Pleasure Horse”:
http://etd.auburn.edu/bitstream/handle/10415/2421/2010.10.15%20-%20Final.pdf?sequence=2
Some quotes from the conclusion:
Stock breed western pleasure horses perform the collected and extended jog as symmetrical four-beat stepping gaits with no period of suspension and diagonal couplets instead of diagonal pairs.
All four loping gaits were performed as asymmetrical four-beat stepping gaits with leads that had no period of suspension and no periods of quadrupedal support.
Stock breed western pleasure horses are in direct violation of breed association guidelines in regards to the two-beat nature of the jog and three-beat
nature of the lope
I haven’t had a chance to read the whole thing yet, but it looks really interesting.
Another publication with similar findings:
http://www.wageningenacademic.com/_clientfiles/CEP/S1478061507811467a.pdf
I skimmed it and it also looks really interesting. I saved it to read later.
UMM, That source has no credibility to me, although , maybe it has to God, as he was thanked in the end!
No mention of horses used, double blind trial etc.
As a lab tech, at a major teaching hospital, I was involved in enough clinical trials to know that often results from one lab is not duplicated with another, you can pick and choose your subjects, unless the study is a true double blind study, and come up with favorable results to support your stance
The jog is certainly a two beat regular pendulum type beat on a good jogger, and one can actually, and should count,one two, one two, while training.
The second link appears to be much more scientifically valid, and I have copied just one small part, that notes BOTH WESTERN PLEASURE horses AND DRESSAGE HORSES< when gaits were subjected to this type of scientific examination, did not always comply with their breed definitions of those gaits, and also concludes that not enough other breeds have had gait analysis done at this level, as this science is relatively new, and thus maybe our entire understanding of gaits might need re defining
Paragraphs are okay, I hope, as I think close reading of the entire second link needs to be done by everyone in this discussion, rather than just focusing on western pl
Here is that info:
iscussion
Variations of the trot and canter of the dressage horse
have been defined using kinematic measure-
ments
10,18,19
. These studies have assisted in document-
ing the performance parameters of the elite dressage
horse. Earlier research has reported performance par-
ameters of the jog and lope of the western pleasure
horse using temporal measurements
5
. Research for
both the dressage horse and the western pleasure
horse concluded that while horses were being
ranked at the top of their respective classes they
were not performing to judging guidelines. Current
rule changes in the stock-type breed associations
were directed in addressing this problem in the wes-
tern pleasure division by redefining the gaits of the
western pleasure horse
By the way, No Such person, thanks for that second link, as it has some un- baised information, not just on western pl horses, but also on upper dressage horses, far as gait analysis, the latter, I gather, purely un intended by you!
from the second link:
This lack of sus-
pension in both the collected canter of the dressage
horse and the lope of the stock breed western pleasure
horse might explain why the western pleasure lope is
commonly referred to as a collected canter.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7859815]
UMM, That source has no credibility to me, although , maybe it has to God, as he was thanked in the end!
No mention of horses used, double blind trial etc.
As a lab tech, at a major teaching hospital, I was involved in enough clinical trials to know that often results from one lab is not duplicated with another, you can pick and choose your subjects, unless the study is a true double blind study, and come up with favorable results to support your stance
The jog is certainly a two beat regular pendulum type beat on a good jogger, and one can actually, and should count,one two, one two, while training.
The second link appears to be much more scientifically valid, and I have copied just one small part, that notes BOTH WESTERN PLEASURE horses AND DRESSAGE HORSES< when gaits were subjected to this type of scientific examination, did not always comply with their breed definitions of those gaits, and also concludes that not enough other breeds have had gait analysis done at this level, as this science is relatively new, and thus maybe our entire understanding of gaits might need re defining
Paragraphs are okay, I hope, as I think close reading of the entire second link needs to be done by everyone in this discussion, rather than just focusing on western pl
Here is that info:
iscussion
Variations of the trot and canter of the dressage horse
have been defined using kinematic measure-
ments
10,18,19
. These studies have assisted in document-
ing the performance parameters of the elite dressage
horse. Earlier research has reported performance par-
ameters of the jog and lope of the western pleasure
horse using temporal measurements
5
. Research for
both the dressage horse and the western pleasure
horse concluded that while horses were being
ranked at the top of their respective classes they
were not performing to judging guidelines. Current
rule changes in the stock-type breed associations
were directed in addressing this problem in the wes-
tern pleasure division by redefining the gaits of the
western pleasure horse[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you mean by “UMM.” The first link I posted was to a doctoral dissertation from Auburn University.
Also, your comments about the research methodology don’t apply. This was not a clinical trial or a study in which treatment groups were compared to controls. It was an observational study with objective measurements. And I’m not sure what you mean by “no mention of horses used.” There is in fact a detailed description of the horses used along with the comment that all of the horses were from a “nationally known stock breed western pleasure trainer’s facility.”
It doesn’t sound like you were looking at the same thing I was???
There is some apparently some kind of incompatibility between my computer and yours. (Web browser? Something else? I have no idea.) Anyway, about half of your post was not visible to me initially, but then it did show up when I clicked on “Reply with quote.” But yes, the paragraph breaks did show up. Thank you.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7859827]
By the way, No Such person, thanks for that second link, as it has some un- baised information, not just on western pl horses, but also on upper dressage horses, far as gait analysis, the latter, I gather, purely un intended by you![/QUOTE]
I don’t know why you keep insisting that I, and some other people posting here, are dressage riders and that we are picking on WP horses while extolling the virtues of dressage horses. I happen to dislike quite a lot of what I see in the modern dressage competition arena as well. Every once in a while you will even see a “classical dressage” vs “modern competition dressage” argument break out in the dressage forum.
But, as several other people have pointed out, saying “Oh yeah, well they’re just as bad or worse,” is not an effective argument in support of your position.
I am sorry but those in the congress videos just look…well…WRONG! I am a new WP rider and love the slow jog as much as anyone but my horse actually jogs. he doesnt look like a cripple nor does he feel like one. How about THIS as a nice western lope?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=366177903557864&fref=nf
Please tell me why this is less desirable in the pen than the ones posted in the Congress vids???
Dont tell me I “dont understand”. I know what I see…and nothing about those horses in those videos looks normal.
[QUOTE=NoSuchPerson;7859838]
I don’t know why you keep insisting that I, and some other people posting here, are dressage riders and that we are picking on WP horses while extolling the virtues of dressage horses. I happen to dislike quite a lot of what I see in the modern dressage competition arena as well. Every once in a while you will even see a “classical dressage” vs “modern competition dressage” argument break out in the dressage forum.[/QUOTE]
Yup. Rollkur is not “proper” collection the way I was taught it, and I dislike the route modern competitive dressage has taken, and of course not every example of dressage is going to be doing things right. My point with dressage is that there is fairly extensive discussion and explanation of the theory available (“the horse ends up looking like this as ideal because when you use the hind properly then this and this happens because these bits are attached together like so”) and I would like to see something similar discussing the way WP horses carry themselves. Dressage is mentioned not because it is somehow the thing everyone should be doing, but rather because it at least tries to explain and understand what the heck is actually physically going on.
So far the only WP offering made very little sense to me (in part because that poster posts in a way which is very difficult to read anyway) and the general impression I took away from that part of the thread was that the idea of the middle of the back being the highest point isn’t actually what is PHYSICALLY happening with the spine, but rather the feel the rider is looking for.
So, for the record: rollkur is awful no matter what you call it or who is doing it, worrying about the headset of the horse is Doing It Wrong, and I don’t watch a lot of modern competitive dressage much because in general I think there is currently too much emphasis on flashy gaits over other elements.
But if it makes people feel better, we can talk about eventing or jumoers instead of dressage. The mechanics are the same in terms of what the horse is trying to do with his body, but they don’t go to the same degree of collection.
