Well, what I see (and of course this is an opinion, NOT gospel, and I am not a dressage rider! LOL!) He’s on the forehand, He knows he has to keep his head down, and to do that he looks to me like he’s just pulling himself around on his front end.
Bless his little heart, he’s trying, but those long legs are making it very tough for him to shut down and lope like a wp horse.
I bet he does well in HUS, however.
The reason that I mentioned dressage, is that in the second link, there is very important information, when bio mechanics of the gaits of dressage horses were also studied
Here is the finding, again:
. Research for
both the dressage horse and the western pleasure
horse concluded that while horses were being
ranked at the top of their respective classes they
were not performing to judging guidelines. Current
rule changes in the stock-type breed associations
And this:
This lack of sus-
pension in both the collected canter of the dressage
horse and the lope of the stock breed western pleasure
horse might explain why the western pleasure lope is
commonly referred to as a collected canter.
In other words, maybe we all need to re think gaits that can now be analysed to a greater degree then they ever could have been before, with just the naked eye, and the findings might surprise many, going way beyond just western pleasure
The article also stated that not enough studies have been done on other breeds, thus what might have always been considered as ‘dogma’, concerning gaits, under closer observation using this technology, might prove to be quite different.
Enough to know that the study also found high level dressage horses doing collected manovers, performing gaits that were not as per rule.
If you are going to put a link to a study out there, to just bash western pleasure gaits, be honest enough to state the entire findings, which included that when upper end dressage horses were put under the same scrutiny, they also did not execute gaits as per rule book, esp at the collected canter
The reason that I mentioned dressage, is that in the second link, there is very important information, when bio mechanics of the gaits of dressage horses were also studied
Here is the finding, again:
. Research for
both the dressage horse and the western pleasure
horse concluded that while horses were being
ranked at the top of their respective classes they
were not performing to judging guidelines. Current
rule changes in the stock-type breed associations
And this:
This lack of sus-
pension in both the collected canter of the dressage
horse and the lope of the stock breed western pleasure
horse might explain why the western pleasure lope is
commonly referred to as a collected canter.
In other words, maybe we all need to re think gaits that can now be analysed to a greater degree then they ever could have been before, with just the naked eye, and the findings might surprise many, going way beyond just western pleasure
The article also stated that not enough studies have been done on other breeds, thus what might have always been considered as ‘dogma’, concerning gaits, under closer observation using this technology, might prove to be quite different.
Enough to know that the study also found high level dressage horses doing collected manovers, performing gaits that were not as per rule.
If you are going to put a link to a study out there, to just bash western pleasure gaits, be honest enough to state the entire findings, which included that when upper end dressage horses were put under the same scrutiny, they also did not execute gaits as per rule book, esp at the collected canter
The reason that I mentioned dressage, is that in the second link, there is very important information, when bio mechanics of the gaits of dressage horses were also studied
Here is the finding, again:
. Research for
both the dressage horse and the western pleasure
horse concluded that while horses were being
ranked at the top of their respective classes they
were not performing to judging guidelines. Current
rule changes in the stock-type breed associations
And this:
This lack of sus-
pension in both the collected canter of the dressage
horse and the lope of the stock breed western pleasure
horse might explain why the western pleasure lope is
commonly referred to as a collected canter.
In other words, maybe we all need to re think gaits that can now be analysed to a greater degree then they ever could have been before, with just the naked eye, and the findings might surprise many, going way beyond just western pleasure
The article also stated that not enough studies have been done on other breeds, thus what might have always been considered as ‘dogma’, concerning gaits, under closer observation using this technology, might prove to be quite different.
Enough to know that the study also found high level dressage horses doing collected manovers, performing gaits that were not as per rule.
If you are going to put a link to a study out there, to just bash western pleasure gaits, be honest enough to state the entire findings, which included that when upper end dressage horses were put under the same scrutiny, they also did not execute gaits as per rule book, esp at the collected canter
“This lack of sus-
pension in both the collected canter of the dressage
horse and the lope of the stock breed western pleasure
horse might explain why the western pleasure lope is
commonly referred to as a collected canter.”
What that says to me is a sad commentary that the lack of quality in the dressage canter that is being accepted, which looks more like a western pleasure horse. It is not a compliment of a western pleasure lope.
I think the similarities between bad dressage and bad western pleasure, is in the focus on a frame or profile, and an outline, and what is popular and winning, instead of the focus being on the quality of the training, and the quality of movement.
One example being, watching dressage horses supposedly “on the bit” basically heavy and dragging the rider, the horse pulled into the frame, or trapped into it;
and a pleasure horse giving the illusion of working on a light and draped rein, but when the rein is used, the horses mouth flies open, in obvious anticipation of trouble or pain.
In other words, anything to achieve the accepted frame that is considered “correct”, but not based on quality principles. Both horses being either trapped into a frame, or intimidated into the frame.
The warm up pen tells the real story.
Can’t discuss gait analysis unless horses in ALL events are analyzed.
Knowledge constantly changes as we are able to analysis data with more sophisticated equipment, and old accepted truths debunked
Gee, I never had the mouth of my horse fly open on contact, and in fact, you can;t train a horse to the level of working on a loose rein, unless you do use rein contact while driving with legs, both in initial training ,and afterward, to fix a problem, then give the horse complete rein release when he is right
My horse rides just fine on light contact when I ride HUS, but of course, that also is being bashed here!
There are other breeds that ofter western pl, like Morgans , Arabians and even Saddlebreds, but just like open English has a different standard, so does the top open level of western pl, ie, NSBA
The major stock horse breeds have adopted NSBA standards
I can look at a Saddlebred, for example, picking up a lope at a 45 degree angle to the wall, tight rein, out of something that sure is not a true walk and complain how that is not western pl.
Well, we that show stock horse HUS don’t want the look of an Open English horse either
Like it or not, NSBA is the top open venue for western pleasure
Nothing we do with a horse is ‘natural’, from the moment, we as a prey species climb on his back!
I got it that you don’t like western pleasure, but am too lazy to go back and try to see what you are warming up in that warm up pen
Warming up for an event, or just warming up your verbal tirade against western pl, oblivious to faults in other disciplines , esp your own, if indeed you do show
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7862171]
Can’t discuss gait analysis unless horses in ALL events are analyzed.[/QUOTE]
So I’m not allowed to say brussels sprouts taste terrible until I’ve tasted every vegetable there is?
I’m not allowed to say “I don’t like the way this Camaro handles” until I’ve test driven every car on the lot?
That’s just silly.
Doing a gait analysis on WP horses and saying that the gaits don’t match the AQHA breed standard is a perfectly legitimate use of gait analysis and the fact that the researcher didn’t do concurrent gait analyses on other types of horses is entirely irrelevant.
If you could just stop being so pissed about someone scrurtinizing. Perhaps I should clarify. It is AQHA western pleasure that I find lacking improvement.
I have been looking into NSBA.
It is an improvement over AQHA, and addresses some of the things I have been talking about. From the rule book:
Very Poor Lope: Is a horse that may appear to have
a three beat gait but has no lift or self-carriage. This horse
shuffles, has no flow, and bobs his head, giving the appearance
of exerting a great deal of effort to perform the gait. He also
does not appear comfortable to ride.
3) Poor Lope: Is a horse with an average motion but
exhibits negative characteristics in his performance. Some of
these negative characteristics may be head bobbing, not completing
the stride with the front leg and leaving the outside hock
well behind the horse’s buttocks. An over-canted horse generally
displays these negative characteristics.
Those two items are what I see as more of the norm in AQHA. The majority of the horses I see in AQHA WP classes are generally of this poorer quality.
It is interesting that they stress a level head and neck position as the standard.
I don’t completely agree with that in HUS.
“Poor Top-Line: The horse’s head may be to high or
to low. If the horse’s head is consistently higher than his eye
level with his withers, his back becomes hollow and he loses his
drive from behind. When his head is consistently lower than his
ear level with his wither, he becomes heavy on his forehand and
has no lift or flow. In both cases the horse loses his self-carriage and appears to struggle.”
I would say that in AQHA, the horses head bob, the heads are too low, they are heavy on the forehand.
Actually, what I consider ideal for a guideline, not event specific, but a good working position for most horses, is when the horses eye is level with his withers. Even better if the poll is the highest point.
That is more universally correct, in my opinion.
That is not to say that in training, we won’t be elongating and lowering, or collecting and elevating past that point. I think what is most damaging to a horse, physically, is the repetitive muscle use and single range of motion.
But I don’t knock the NSBA, simply because it is an attempt to improve Western Pleasure. If I wanted to do it, I would go there before an AQHA show.
What is interesting, is that that is closer to what the horse in the logo of the NSBA, at the header of the rule book, is showing, than what is actually being judged. Why is that?
All I am trying to do is to not go with just what is popular or winning, but to actually scrutinize and examine what is actually going on.
So if none of the videos I’ve posted are at a “big” show and don’t exhibit what judges are looking for show me some examples. What is a winning western pleasure ride at a big show that falls within rulebook parameters?
Agreed, and I see my fair share of dressage horses who have a four-beat canter when in “collection” and it makes me scratch my head. 
Well, it must be time to move on to another topic or discipline to analysis or
bash
How about calf roping? Barrel racing? Reining?
Then there is always the old stand by-halter
Anyway, , I think this topic has about run its’ course, and time to move on-for me anyways
How about gait analysis on reiners, in that small slow circle. Almost anyone can see how many of those horses very obviously four beat.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7863192]
Well, it must be time to move on to another topic or discipline to analysis or
bash
How about calf roping? Barrel racing? Reining?
Then there is always the old stand by-halter
Anyway, , I think this topic has about run its’ course, and time to move on-for me anyways
How about gait analysis on reiners, in that small slow circle. Almost anyone can see how many of those horses very obviously four beat.[/QUOTE]
Anyone who has any questions other than “wow, how do you get them horses to look so purdy?” Is automatically bashing, got it.
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7863192]
Well, it must be time to move on to another topic or discipline to analysis or
bash
How about calf roping? Barrel racing? Reining?
Then there is always the old stand by-halter
Anyway, , I think this topic has about run its’ course, and time to move on-for me anyways
How about gait analysis on reiners, in that small slow circle. Almost anyone can see how many of those horses very obviously four beat.[/QUOTE]
Anyone who has any questions other than “wow, how do you get them horses to look so purdy?” Is automatically bashing, got it.
[QUOTE=enjoytheride;7862665]
So if none of the videos I’ve posted are at a “big” show and don’t exhibit what judges are looking for show me some examples. What is a winning western pleasure ride at a big show that falls within rulebook parameters?[/QUOTE]
Here you go
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stEgqgnbC4M
Just a final comment on gaits.
The gallop is a four beat a gait, and when open English horses are asked for a hand gallop, in reality they just extend the canter
The reason I suggested all horses, breeds,discipline, where gaits are judged need closer scrutiny to see if perhaps some elements of knowledge are missing, observed with just the naked eye
There is a reason poor ole Pluto now no longer is considered a planet!
The article also suggested that more breeds need to have their gaits analyzed in order to have enough data to substantiate if what always has been assumed facts, indeed is
[QUOTE=KIloBright;7863520]
Just a final comment on gaits.
The gallop is a four beat a gait, and when open English horses are asked for a hand gallop, in reality they just extend the canter[/QUOTE]
A hand gallop, by definition, is an extended canter NOT an actual gallop. No idea why, but no one I know would actually insist it is an actual shift in gait pattern - some language weirdness somewhere along the line happened. But anyone doing a hand gallop and insisting it is a gallop is just plain wrong.
It is also not just about the gait. It is about what is accepted as what the appropriate frame and tempo and action should be in order to judge it.
[QUOTE=aktill;7844986]
THIS is what western riding on a three year old should look like. Absolute pleasure to watch: http://youtu.be/1qwkvbiRPP8[/QUOTE]
You believe a THREE year ols should be set back on hocks doing slow spins? He’ll need hock injections by the time he is 5 
All depends on how often they do it. Guarantee that they’ll have pulled a highlight reel, so to speak…it is a sales video after all. Getting a horse used to that sort of work for a light summer then turning him or her out again for a year is pretty common amongst folks who build horses for the long run. They don’t drill them like a futurity horse would. The horse isn’t resisting, the work is done slowly and correctly (not a reining spin), and they’re not spinning forever. More of a turn on the hind, which is hardly something they won’t do in the field in bursts.
But again, only a handful of folks could do this without getting the horse bothered. The horse is saying that overall she doesn’t seem to be too upset about the whole process, to my eye. None of the dull, listless look of a lot of horse vids in this thread.
Would I do it pet personally…nope. Not going to knock this fellow though.
That’s funny, I noticed talking to closed minded people is worse that talking to teenagers.
The peanut rolling is out. Get over yourself.
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