please.explain this to me

Okay I’ve ridden warmbloods, I like them just fine, but I have a major issue I don’t understand. What is warmbloods issue with quarter horses and paints ? The AQHQ realizes the versatility of its horses and now recognizes dressage and have jumping classes. I myself have an appendix stallion out of my own appendix made who went PSG. My stallion is on his way but I feel an automatic condemnation from judges at shows because one they ALWAYS ask the breed (who freaking cares the horse can perform or it can’t) and two my horse looks and moves like a warmblood so they assume he is. Yet despite our success he doesn’t get his recognition because he is viewed as less of a horse because he isn’t a WB. They accept TB, Arabs, and others are considered sport horses so what makes it so much better that the Americans didn’t create it ? So frustrating ! I’d like for my foals to be eligible for young horse and things but they can’t no matter how nice because they aren’t warmbloods. Why does the attitude prevail ?

I am sorry you feel this way. However, I have bred and show a half welsh pony that is competing at second level against all the big warmbloods. No one has ever asked me his breeding, nor has he ever been scored down because of his small stature. In my region 1, which is quite a competitive one, there are competitors showing paints/ pintos, ponies, haflingers, fjords, appendix…all doing quite well. I must admit I do not see any breed ever being condemned. We have tons of Fresians doing clean sweeps at a lot of our shows.

Having said that part of dressage is a gait score. Breeds such as fjords, or even the Fresians, might not have as big or free a gait as some warmblood so might be dinged in this department. This might also have an effect on the score for particular movements such as an extended trot/canter, free walk, passage or piaffe as it won’t naturally be as clear. It is just due to mechanics and size.

According to the USEF website the National YH classes allow any horse that is registered with a National Breed Registry (ie; any warmblood breed recognized by the WBFSH, JC or AQHA for example). Hence, as long as your horse is properly papered in one of these accepted registries you can compete. I do not think this would apply for the YH Championships in Europe, but you certainly could compete in the US. These classes were designed to highlight successful breeding and training of the young horse for English discipline sport. Hence, it is important to know the parentage of the horse being competed and why proper registration is required.

If your horse is unable to gain proper registration then I would recommend other sorts of High Score Awards. If I were you I would enter these classes if available. I would compete for USDF All Breeds Awards. I would compete on the QH circuit. I would compete for my GMO HOY awards. There are plenty of other divisions and awards your horse(s) could qualify.

Lastly, if you are referring to lack of acceptance of your horse into warmblood registries then I don’t understand the issue. I could not register my warmblood into the QH registry, the paint registry, etc. Only those horses qualify for their specific breeds. Yes, most warmblood registries accept some TBs and Arabs into their book but that is because they use those specific breeds to refine and introduce certain qualities into the warmblood. The QH does not have qualities that are desired in a warmblood. That is not to say the QH is less than the WB, just that it is a different breed with a different purpose. The QH folks don’t allow WBs into their book either…because the WB does not have the qualities that the QH folks need or want in their breed. Apple and oranges.

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7204530]
I am sorry you feel this way. However, I have bred and show a half welsh pony that is competing at second level against all the big warmbloods. No one has ever asked me his breeding, nor has he ever been scored down because of his small stature. In my region 1, which is quite a competitive one, there are competitors showing paints/ pintos, ponies, haflingers, fjords, appendix…all doing quite well. I must admit I do not see any breed ever being condemned. We have tons of Fresians doing clean sweeps at a lot of our shows.

Having said that part of dressage is a gait score. Breeds such as fjords, or even the Fresians, might not have as big or free a gait as some warmblood so might be dinged in this department. This might also have an effect on the score for particular movements such as an extended trot/canter, free walk, passage or piaffe as it won’t naturally be as clear. It is just due to mechanics and size.

According to the USEF website the National YH classes allow any horse that is registered with a National Breed Registry (ie; any warmblood breed recognized by the WBFSH, JC or AQHA for example). Hence, as long as your horse is properly papered in one of these accepted registries you can compete. I do not think this would apply for the YH Championships in Europe, but you certainly could compete in the US. These classes were designed to highlight successful breeding and training of the young horse for English discipline sport. Hence, it is important to know the parentage of the horse being competed and why proper registration is required.

If your horse is unable to gain proper registration then I would recommend other sorts of High Score Awards. If I were you I would enter these classes if available. I would compete for USDF All Breeds Awards. I would compete on the QH circuit. I would compete for my GMO HOY awards. There are plenty of other divisions and awards your horse(s) could qualify.

Lastly, if you are referring to lack of acceptance of your horse into warmblood registries then I don’t understand the issue. I could not register my warmblood into the QH registry, the paint registry, etc. Only those horses qualify for their specific breeds. Yes, most warmblood registries accept some TBs and Arabs into their book but that is because they use those specific breeds to refine and introduce certain qualities into the warmblood. The QH does not have qualities that are desired in a warmblood. That is not to say the QH is less than the WB, just that it is a different breed with a different purpose. The QH folks don’t allow WBs into their book either…because the WB does not have the qualities that the QH folks need or want in their breed. Apple and oranges.[/QUOTE]

This was a perfect response Blume Farm!

There is also a lot of ignorance about the QH out there. Part of it is due to the several different types of QH’s bred. I have 30 horses, they are welsh, warmbloods, and tb/qh or TB/paints. All of my horses fall into a “type” that I like-- Floaty movers, easy jump, kid friendly. We don’t show a lot but when we do we win. Nothing makes me smile that inner haha smile more than when the warmblood people think my Appendix are my Warmbloods.

[QUOTE=Snowfox;7205395]
There is also a lot of ignorance about the QH out there. Part of it is due to the several different types of QH’s bred. I have 30 horses, they are welsh, warmbloods, and tb/qh or TB/paints. All of my horses fall into a “type” that I like-- Floaty movers, easy jump, kid friendly. We don’t show a lot but when we do we win. Nothing makes me smile that inner haha smile more than when the warmblood people think my Appendix are my Warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

Right, but why would you (and that’s rhetorical, I’m not saying you do) want to register them as anything else? I love a good appendix. I also adore a good cow horse and would join a team penning league in a heartbeat if I had a horse that could do it. My friend rode her QH in the hunters and I had a paint I did dressage with for awhile. But I never needed them to be anything other than a QH or APHA. I guess for me breeding a warmblood is for the Olympic disciplines of show jumping and dressage. I don’t need them to do barrel racing, reining, cutting, roping, etc. and if I had a great QH jumper I would want him or her recognized as an awesome QH. It’s registry vs. breed.

I still think Blume Farm had a great answer, particularly the last paragraph.

I agree with Blume Farm and just have to add; I think you may be feeling some persecution where very little (or none) exists. Perhaps a past persecution or injustice contributes to this, it is true there are biases everywhere. But in my narrow experience as a scribe for judges, I have NEVER heard a Judge disdain a horse based on breed. Sometimes judges inquire as to what breed a horse is because they “break the mold” – in every instance I’ve witnessed, when a judge inquires as to breed it is a GOOD thing and is followed by lauding/kudos.

However, several years back at a facility we had a judge that was notorious for scoring TBs poorly… Don’t think anyone asks or pays her to judge anymore.

I bred my WB mare to a QH (appendix) and got a fantastic filly this spring. Some people didn’t understand why I would breed to a QH instead of a WB or TB but it’s the best of both worlds. So far it seems that she got the QH mind with the WB size. I seem to have lightened up the size of the body a little while keeping the larger bone. Something that I have not gotten from crossing that mare to a TB before. This filly is put together very well and will be a monster, she looks like her daddy but doesn’t shout that she’s 1/2 QH. And at 6 months old she’s almost as tall as my QH cow pony…

And the stallion I bred her to is the only AQHA stallion that is both by and out of AQHA superhorses (not a small feat). Plus a multiple Congress top 10 placer with limited showing. I don’t regret it at all.

I looked into breeding to another AQHA stallion that has been there done that and his fees knocked him off my list. If I had an AQHA mare I was wanting to breed it would have been tempting but I wasn’t going to pay a large stud fee for a nice baby that couldn’t be registered when I could have bred to a well known WB stallion for cheaper.

I plan on eventing with this baby, along with dressage, hunters, trail riding, and working cows… she will look funny when she’s 16+ hands and sorting cows but she doesn’t know she’s not supposed to do it. I have a soft spot for quarter horses.

Excellent response Blume Farm!

Everything is subject to fashion and personal opinion and prejudice, but dressage should be about the correct training to bring out the best in the horse, regardless of breeding. It seems that the better and more experienced the judge, the more they look at the movements and less at the shape or breed of the horse.

Having said that, the QH come in such a range of types and sizes that a racing version is a very different creature from a foundation bred one. So who knows what they are unless you tell the judge!

I have NEVER heard a Judge disdain a horse based on breed.

I have. The judge was also my coach for about two years. She had serious breed prejudice (odd, since she kind of “made her name” on off-breed horses.)

I heard her cattily discussing a quarter horse with HER coach, another popular Dressage personality around my area. “Too bad he’s just a quarter horse, moves like he’s tracking a cow.”

Huh.

I don’t think she’s ever actually attended a cattle event, and the horse in question moved better than half the warmbloods present…he was in FABULOUS shape, and not a GP prospect by any stretch, but very correct, obedient and a nice moving horse. No idea if this affected the horse’s score, but she certainly wasn’t very discreet in her comments, she was standing ringside where anyone could hear.

Judges do have bias. There are about 5 judges used regularly around here for Dressage, and my former coach is one, but she’s at the lower level. If you show lower levels around here, you;ve likely shown for her…so I can definitely see how you’d be fair in perceiving a breed prejudice if you experienced mostly her kind of commentary!

Amazing post Blume Farm.

I highly doubt that the OP is ALWAYS (repeat of their all caps) asked the breed of their horse. I also highly doubt that if they are asked the breed it is just so the judge can mark them down further.

I find that the majority of the people who claim that the judge did not place them well enough based on the breed of their horse are not seeing or not admitting to something their horse does that is less than desirable for whatever they are showing. In other words, sure their horse walked, trotted, and cantered around the ring well but it did not win (or get the higher numbers) because it just does not move as well as others, etc. Its lower placing/score had nothing to do with its breed/color/coat pattern and all to do with either the ride it was given or how it performed.

[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7204455]
Okay I’ve ridden warmbloods, I like them just fine, but I have a major issue I don’t understand. What is warmbloods issue with quarter horses and paints ? The AQHQ realizes the versatility of its horses and now recognizes dressage and have jumping classes. I myself have an appendix stallion out of my own appendix made who went PSG. My stallion is on his way but I feel an automatic condemnation from judges at shows because one they ALWAYS ask the breed (who freaking cares the horse can perform or it can’t) and two my horse looks and moves like a warmblood so they assume he is. Yet despite our success he doesn’t get his recognition because he is viewed as less of a horse because he isn’t a WB. They accept TB, Arabs, and others are considered sport horses so what makes it so much better that the Americans didn’t create it ? So frustrating ! I’d like for my foals to be eligible for young horse and things but they can’t no matter how nice because they aren’t warmbloods. Why does the attitude prevail ?[/QUOTE]

I agree with Blume Farm, but for clarification here, you said “they” (I think you meant judges) “ALWAYS” ask you his breed and then you said “my horse looks and moves like a WB, so they assume he is” (again, I think “they” was meant to refer to judges). Which is it? Do they ask or do they assume? If he looks and moves like a WB, but you’re repeatedly asked his breeding…could it be because he’s a stallion who’s not branded?? I may not think twice about the breeding of someone else’s gelding, but if there’s a stallion in a class that catches my eye, I’ll probably ask how he’s bred. Perhaps you’re perceiving some prejudice where there is none at all?

Love Blume Farm’s reply. :slight_smile:

Though have you thought that maybe you are getting asked about their breed because they are actually lovely horses and not in a negative way?

Often, if I ask the breed/pedigree on a horse, it’s because I like it. :yes:

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;7206291]
I have. The judge was also my coach for about two years. She had serious breed prejudice (odd, since she kind of “made her name” on off-breed horses.)

Judges do have bias. There are about 5 judges used regularly around here for Dressage, and my former coach is one, but she’s at the lower level. If you show lower levels around here, you;ve likely shown for her…so I can definitely see how you’d be fair in perceiving a breed prejudice if you experienced mostly her kind of commentary![/QUOTE]

I have too. I’ve scribed for some, I’ve shown under some, and been in educational events with some. I will say I think the vast majority of judges are unbiased, but some of them do, and some of them are quite open about it. So, you learn which judges to avoid, then show under the good ones! And you don’t have to declare a breed on the show entry unless you are going for All Breeds awards.

The Warmblood breeding model is based on European breeding - they don’t accept ANY of the American breeds - QH, Paint, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc. If you venture into the American registries - AWS, Old NA, etc - you will see those breeds accepted, at least into their mare books. But most of the Euro based registries (w/ the exception of RPSI who does accept them but their offspring get a “half brand”) stick w/ Euro based breeds and a model of breeding that has been around for a LONG time (before it was easy to ship horses and semen back and forth across the big pond). Euro registries - it is their rules, we just have to abide by them.

BTW, I have heard the argument “well, AQHA won’t accept WB, so why should WB accept AQHA?” - and that is not a good argument. AQHA is a closed BREED registry, the WB registries are not closed, they are PERFORMANCE registries. The better answer would be - it doesn’t fit into their breeding model - perhaps because they don’t want to risk stock horse type conformation popping up. There are so many different TYPES of AQHA (or Paint or Appy), some of which are very sporty and high % Tbred - and these can make good breeding choices for the sport horse model, but that puts the onus on the breeder to research and make sure there isn’t “halter horse” or other non-sport horse type that could crop up.

Go out, enjoy your horse, show, and prove his talent. Avoid the judges that do show bias, ride with a good trainer, search out good clinicians, and get some honest input about your horse - there are a lot of us who choose to ride non-WBs. And still do well in the shows :slight_smile:

Agree with MysticOak, my experience showing is also largely positive.

And my warmblood has been beaten by MANY quarter horses. And Arab crosses. And Thoroughbreds. And other warmbloods.

It’s not really his fault :wink: He’s got the warmblood paperwork, he’s unfortunately been saddled with a crummy rider who gets WRECKED by show nerves…:lol:

Judging is subjective. Some judges like black horses or chestnuts with bling. Others like a type of horse…you are judged on how your horse moves which is a function of his conformation.

I have to OTTBs that are mistaken for WBs all the time, even though both look like classic TBs to me. I don’t care if someone asks their breed. It is typically done to educate that person’s eye. I ask people the BREEDING…not the breed…on horses I like because that is how I educate my eye as to what combinations I like.

QHs have their pluses and minues like ALL breeds. They are not crossed in WB registries primarily because WBs are mostly of European backgrounds where there historically have not been as many QH. In addition, a WB registry is not a performance registry…they are type. They are looking to produce a certain type of horse. And just as the AQHA has used TB blood to create a certain TYPE of QH…the WBs use TB blood as well. The WB registries do not use just any TB…or arab…but only ones of a certain type.

But again…I’m not sure why it matters in dressage. You are not judged on the breed…you are judged on the movement and performance THAT day. I’ve NEVER seen a horse that preformed well…had the movement and laid down a nice test not be scored well even from a judge who has a bias. So if they have the dressage movement that the judge likes…they will do well regardless of the breed. Now there are some judges who I disagree with what they think is important…but that is why it is subjective.

I have owned a warmblood horse (a Gelderlander/Anglo Arab cross) , a QH, two TB’s and three appendix QH’s and other types of horses. And I know that most people consider them as totally different types of horses and people in one camp do not want to have a second look at a horse from a different camp.

Just to clarify, none of the Euro based regs, including the RPSI except stuff like QHs, paints, etc. The RPSI will put them in their Premare book, but not in the regular books. Those mare’s foals are only able to get COP’s regardless of who they breed them to. I think many people think COP is the same as reg and it’s not. Just wanted to again clarify this point. Now back to the regular program.

BTW, I have heard the argument “well, AQHA won’t accept WB, so why should WB accept AQHA?” - and that is not a good argument. AQHA is a closed BREED registry, the WB registries are not closed, they are PERFORMANCE registries. The better answer would be - it doesn’t fit into their breeding model - perhaps because they don’t want to risk stock horse type conformation popping up

Actually they are not performance registries. They have a wider type and origin than QH’s, but genetically, they are a unique group. Like any breed, they go back to a few animals that shaped the group. While Tb’s and a few Arabs are accepted, there is not much outside influence and some registries are very tight like the Holsteins, Traks and formerly Hanoverians.
They are listed as a breed under the Canadian Pedigree Act and that has very stringent guidelines for calling something a breed as it must meet the criteria. http://www.agr.gc.ca/animalgenetics-genetiqueanimale/apa_chap2_eng.htm

If you are interested in a performance horse registry, don’t go for a breed registry (like the warmblood BREEDS or a closed studbook breed) and register with PHR or ISR, or in RPSI book II - basically, a certificate of pedigree for horses of mixed breed… Or go with AWS, but don’t be upset because other breed registries will not accept your horse that is not of one of their accepted breeds!

Last time I was shopping I looked for appendix QHs. I think they have a lot of great qualities for sport horses and I hoped I could find one for myself. That said, I wouldn’t expect to mix those genes in with my warmblood mare and call the resulting offspring a Holsteiner any more than I’d expect to be able to use a Connemara, an Andalusian, a Fresian (all also well respected horse breeds in their own right).

Good QHs can do so many things. If you love your quarter horse and are proud of it, answer with a smile and pride in your voice next time someone asks you your horse’s breeding.