please.explain this to me

[fire_911medic]

[QUOTE=Snowfox;7205395]
There is also a lot of ignorance about the QH out there. Part of it is due to the several different types of QH’s bred. I have 30 horses, they are welsh, warmbloods, and tb/qh or TB/paints. All of my horses fall into a “type” that I like-- Floaty movers, easy jump, kid friendly. We don’t show a lot but when we do we win. Nothing makes me smile that inner haha smile more than when the warmblood people think my Appendix are my Warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

Yep ! I loved when my mare got the plus at a huge show in a PSG class of over 30 web. Barely 15 hands and gave me the ride of my life ! Threw me a gorgeous baby that is all appendix but looks and definitely moves like a warmblood. Love it ! Glad to see others. Wish they could realize that our beautiful movers could contribute as well !

[fire_911medic]

For clarification - they meant showing in general. Every entrance form for a show asks for the breed. Now I understand that it can be for individual breed awards but on the same token I have ridden in several shows where I heard repeatedly “nice horse too bad its not a warmblood could do well”. I considered warmblood stallions when breeding my made and became disgusted with the process because I heard over and over we don’t cross for horses not to be registered. Also got shame she is so nice she would do amazing at inspections. Same of my stallion. Turns a lot of people off because they know their foal is considered grade because it can’t have formal papers and it is worth less as a sale horse and I know any responsible person has the mindset of am I breeding for the betterment of the breed and the sport as well as possible sale value even if they breed for personal use. That is what is depressing. And it is frustrating as a breeder when that is your focus and nice horses should be valued but really have no value it is disappointing. Warmbloods work off approvals so I don’t understand why if a horse is awesome and could produce nicely why won’t they accept that ?

[Pennywell_Bay]

Maybe “they” are asking because he still has his balls…and wonder why.

[Blume_Farm]

It seems like there are two issues that are being discussed. The first is breed bias at dressage shows. In my experience I have not seen this…and as I said before I see many, many competitors on many, many different breeds that are obviously not WBs and could not be mistaken as one. If they ride a correct test and have good basic gaits they do well. I have experienced this both as a competitor with my own pony and as a scribe. That in no way means breed bias might not happen with certain judges, I just have not experienced this. It is a shame that it has happened for some of you guys as I feel the sport should be accessible to AAs on any horse. Maybe you can pay attention to what judges appear to be more fair in your opinion and try to ride in front of them.

The second issue is regarding acceptance of QHs and Appendix horses into WB registries. The Warmblood is a breed, not just a registry. It is a breed with over a hundred years of selective breeding through genetics to develop the athletic abilities and phenotype that it has today. Some of those WB breed registries are “closed” such as the Trakehner and Holsteiner, while others are “open” to allow the genetics of all the WBs as well as a select few Tbs and Arabs/ AA. Anyone that really focuses on breeding WBs doesn’t just pick a stallion based on how he looks…there is analyzation of blood lines, known “nicks”, understanding of what a particular pedigree might bring to the mix, etc. It is an art, it is a science. And it is a lifetime of studying WB bloodlines and past known breeding successes. That is why the argument is made that in Europe families that have generations of knowledge passed down to each other can be so useful. That is why some registries offer courses to breeders to even begin to learn these “secrets”. It is also what makes selling foals at a better price possible (although most breeders will argue that they ever make any $$ breeding WBs:(). You can market a foal by saying “this filly is by stallion A, out a mare by Stallion B, out of a mare by stallion C”. Obviously there is always a gamble, but a buyer can say “oh I like stallion A, he has crossed well with stallion B, and stallion C tends to add a good mind. Stallion B has produced 10 GP horses, Stallion C has produced 10 FEI horses”.

The following is just my (unsolicited) advice…If you are breeding athletic, sporty Appendix horses that succeed in dressage then make that your goal and marketing. IMO, don’t compare your horses to WBs. Make your breeding goal to be the best sport-type Appendix breeder out there. Lynn Palm did not try to compare Rugged Lark to a warmblood. She made Rugged Lark the best sport-type QH out there…and gleaned all the success and recognition that came along with it (or I guess, better put, his breeder did)! I would guess that his foals sell for as much money as any WB foal…QH blood and all. Why? Because he has an extensive history of success, as do his offspring. Folks know what they are buying.

Maybe I live with rose colored glasses, but I believe if you are breeding successful AA friendly dressage horses that continue to succeed in competitions your breeding program will succeed. With or without WB papers/ registration. But with an extensive history of success under your belt (or under your stallions:)) you will have something to market that buyers will know what they are getting. Until then, keep competing (maybe under judges you prefer) and keep racking up as many awards as possible with your stallion.

[Crockpot]

To OP: When people ask your horse’s breeding, they may be genuinely curious and may also be wondering specifics (sire and dam) rather than implying anything negative.

I think many claims of ‘breed bias’ are imagined by people who are looking for slights.

[JWB]

If you are standing a QH stallion, IMHO your target “mare owner” should be someone who is hoping to also breed quarter horses or apendix QHs… back to my previous post, I have a friend with an AMAZING Andalusian stallion. She markets to and sells breedings to other Andalusian breeders rather than trying to solicit business from the warmblood breeders or lament the fact that although her stallion is amazing, he’ll never be accepted into their registries.

The TBs and Arabians sort of get a pass as an improvement breed (which is also accepted into most stock horse registries) but other non-warmblood breeds - not so much. It would be like me complaining that although ApHC will give papers to a foal from a TB mare, they will not register a foal from my BWP mare, no matter how nice.

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7207075]
For clarification - they meant showing in general. Every entrance form for a show asks for the breed. Now I understand that it can be for individual breed awards but on the same token I have ridden in several shows where I heard repeatedly “nice horse too bad its not a warmblood could do well”. I considered warmblood stallions when breeding my made and became disgusted with the process because I heard over and over we don’t cross for horses not to be registered. Also got shame she is so nice she would do amazing at inspections. Same of my stallion. Turns a lot of people off because they know their foal is considered grade because it can’t have formal papers and it is worth less as a sale horse and I know any responsible person has the mindset of am I breeding for the betterment of the breed and the sport as well as possible sale value even if they breed for personal use. That is what is depressing. And it is frustrating as a breeder when that is your focus and nice horses should be valued but really have no value it is disappointing. Warmbloods work off approvals so I don’t understand why if a horse is awesome and could produce nicely why won’t they accept that ?[/QUOTE]

I know warmbloods and I like warmbloods. When I breed, I breed warmbloods. I wouldn’t consider putting my warmblood mare to an Appendix stallion (unless he was A.M.A.Z.I.N.G. and I didn’t plan to sell the foal) because of traits that are likely to be somewhere in his genetics. Would I want to chance him throwing a downhill build? Small feet for stature? I’m NOT saying all QH’s are built downhill or have tiny feet, but there are enough with those traits that I’m not willing to gamble that a crossbred (i.e., Appendix QH) is going to reliably reproduce itself.
And trying to resell a WB X TB X QH is a different ballgame then selling a purebred or even a WB X TB or WB X QH. There are always going to be the buyers who say, “With all the fantastic WB and TB stallion options, why did you choose to go Appendix?”
As for why “an awesome horse” of any breed can’t be registered with an outside breed registry, it wouldn’t BE a breed registry if it were open to all horses. ?? As previous posters have said, there are any number of performance based registries you can present the horse to. My Dutch Warmblood may work cows better than any registered QH (he doesn’t really, he’s terrified of the damn things), but that doesn’t mean the AQHA is going to open their books for him and start infusing a little Dutch into their breed.
So, now that you’ve raised my curiosity, do you have any pics or video of your boy that you can share?

[fire_911medic]

I would be more than happy to. I am working off a smart phone now which seriously limits my ability to post pics and stuff - no cut paste links and things. But as soon as I get my laptop back next week would be more than happy to. I just think it is a shame we focus so much on breed over performance. There are good and bad points of every made and stallion. I am not naive and think my guy is perfect. He is not but his good qualities outweigh his bad which is why I chose to maintain a stallion. I went through a lot to keep him and intact but feel it was worth it. Wished the whole time I was competing his mother aqua would recognize dressage. The year I retired her they did. I would love to see dressage classes at congress but I think we are still a good ways from that yet. Wb have their ups and downs. They are more prone to ocd, stifle issues, and wobblers simply due to their build. Plus I am five foot two. I don’t want nor need a huge horse. But that argument is for another time and place. I evaluated nearly 200 stallions when looking to breed. I first wanted soundness, then temperament, then athletic ability. They can be the most talented things but if they aren’t sound and rideable no point. There are a lot of negative traits in TB that make them undesirable and one choose very carefully when crossing to one. I’m quite picky growing up within the tb industry, but some great traits crossed with the quarter horse that make it phenomenal. I would love to see a trend away from the breed registries across the board to performance registries instead where crossing proven horses is more important than a breed. Just my opinion for what it is worth.

[Oranges2012]

Another thoughtful and thorough reply, Blume. Agree with all.

[Blume_Farm]

[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7207442]
I would love to see a trend away from the breed registries across the board to performance registries instead where crossing proven horses is more important than a breed. Just my opinion for what it is worth.[/QUOTE]

IMO, this would not produce a superior sport horse. You would most likely get a “mish mosh” of a horse. Breeding a superior QH to a superior WB is not going to produce a superior WBxQH. I will not profess to know anything about QH blood lines, I am a neophyte at breeding WBs! However, I do know that the ability to produce the WB horse as we know it today was through generations of calculated breeding. I assume it is similar in the QH world.

However, breeding superior WBs and separately breeding superior Apeendix or QHs and then having them compete against each other is great for the sport. Lets each breed hash it out in the dressage arena! Of course, each horse will need a great rider too to make it all even:)

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=fire_911medic;7207442]
I would love to see a trend away from the breed registries across the board to performance registries instead where crossing proven horses is more important than a breed. Just my opinion for what it is worth.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t! I breed “outside” the traditional WB box, but I don’t want to see the registries change too dramatically. There are already registry options - AWS, PHR, ISR - why do we need more? The European models are also varied - there are a few “closed” registries that are really breed oriented (such as Trakehner), and the more open registries (such as RPSI). Then they have their purebred registries (such as Irish Sport Horse). The US has the same variety - closed registries for purebred horses (Jockey Club, AQHA, AMHA, etc), their performance based registries (AWS, Old NA/ISR, PHR).

We can’t change the Euro model - but we can support the US models that exist.

You can register with, and list your horse as a PHR or AWS - I’ve certainly done that more then once. It doesn’t help when your horse is OBVIOUSLY a certain breed (Arab, Friesian, Andalusian, there are certain breeds that are easily recognized), but with a QH that is of sport horse type, that is one way to get away from breed bias.

[JackieBlue]

Well, if we were to decide to open a “Dressage Performance Breeding Registry” and breed The Best Dressage types to The Best Dressage types, the result (WAAAAAY down the line, after MUCH culling) would be something resembling the typical modern type warmblood and NOT the typical QH or Appendix. In fact, that’s just how the breeds we have now originated. Horses ideal for a specific purpose were bred to other horses, ideal for the SAME purpose. We learned along the way that breeding like to like results in better predictability and that certain bloodlines are more predictable than others and in order to preserve what was created over decades to centuries, we developed breed registries in which like is bred to like in order to perpetuate an ideal for that breed.
We’ve done the “breeding awesome horses to awesome horses” and learned over centuries how to do it better. Why would we go backwards?

[Oranges2012]

“Originally Posted by fire_911medic View Post
I would love to see a trend away from the breed registries across the board to performance registries instead where crossing proven horses is more important than a breed. Just my opinion for what it is worth.”

The European warmblood breed registries in discussion here “are”, for the most part, performance registries. These breeds have been specifically cultivated and developed over generations to produce riding type (performance) horses . There are other breeds which produce harness types, or draft, etc, but not specifically for riding/performance.

It sounds as if you have given your own breeding program a great deal of thought and consideration and are successful, which is no small feat. There are some great posts here which support the idea of what you want to do, without having to focus on the idea of warmblood bias.

[siegi_b]

I have a hard time taking this discussion seriously… Why would any breeder in her right mind consider a pairing that would most likely take away from the qualities you’re looking for? I have a few very well-bred KWPN-NA mares that have produced excellent offspring when paired with the right warmblood stallions. I know what my mares bring to the equation and look at the dam lines of the stud to see what’s behind his conformation, gaits, and temperament. Quarter horse breeders do the very same thing… Just because the OP has a stallion that she “kind of likes” doesn’t mean that now the breed registries should be replaced by performance registries in order to allow some kind of registration for foals from cross breeding this stallion with WB mares. Let’s get real… :lol::lol:

[out_west]

I own 2 warmbloods that I currently compete. I have been asked by judges what is he/she for both of them. One is Oldenberg, but grey (uncommon) and MatchoAA is his grandsire (and it shows), the other is KWPN but small (15.2). I think it is genuine curiosity, and by the way, in those classes where I was asked I always won. So I would take it as a compliment.

[fire_911medic]

[QUOTE=Blume Farm;7207464]
IMO, this would not produce a superior sport horse. You would most likely get a “mish mosh” of a horse. Breeding a superior QH to a superior WB is not going to produce a superior WBxQH. I will not profess to know anything about QH blood lines, I am a neophyte at breeding WBs! However, I do know that the ability to produce the WB horse as we know it today was through generations of calculated breeding. I assume it is similar in the QH world.
I
However, breeding superior WBs and separately breeding superior Apeendix or QHs and then having them compete against each other is great for the sport. Lets each breed hash it out in the dressage arena! Of course, each horse will need a great rider too to make it all even:)[/QUOTE]
I am in complete.agreement with that. If people will seriously consider other breeds from a purchase perspective I’d love to see a showdown in the ring. I agree would be excellent for the sport ! Sadly though at least in this area people don’t feel like they will be competitive without a warmblood despite the fact that another horse might suit them better. Perhaps my kids will be the ones to change that. Who knows ?

[Crockpot]

If people will seriously consider other breeds from a purchase perspective I’d love to see a showdown in the ring. I agree would be excellent for the sport ! Sadly though at least in this area people don’t feel like they will be competitive without a warmblood despite the fact that another horse might suit them better. Perhaps my kids will be the ones to change that. Who knows ?

What is to stop you from a “showdown in the ring?” You’ve already said they are competitive. Get out there and do it . One thing about the dressage ring- compared to some other disciplines- any horse can go in and compete.

[MysticOakRanch]

There are some successful QH crosses - one that comes to mind because he just died a few moths ago. Bred by an S judge, ridden by another S judge, competed through Grand Prix very successfully - Legere. He was out of a QH mare and by a Dutch stallion. The point - an educated breeding of this cross can result in a NICE horse.

Go out, compete your horse on the open show circuit, make educated breeding decisions, and enjoy!

[JackieBlue]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7209464]
There are some successful QH crosses - one that comes to mind because he just died a few moths ago. Bred by an S judge, ridden by another S judge, competed through Grand Prix very successfully - Legere. He was out of a QH mare and by a Dutch stallion. The point - an educated breeding of this cross can result in a NICE horse.

Go out, compete your horse on the open show circuit, make educated breeding decisions, and enjoy![/QUOTE]

Yes, it can, but as stated earlier, from a breeding and selling perspective, a WB X QH is much different from a WB X QH/TB. No one is saying that the OP’s stallion isn’t amazing, or that he isn’t ideal for breeding to WB mares, just that the offspring are not eligible for most WB registries and may not be easy to sell and that mare owners may opt for a more “mainstream” stallion choice in light of these facts.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=JackieBlue;7210431]
Yes, it can, but as stated earlier, from a breeding and selling perspective, a WB X QH is much different from a WB X QH/TB. No one is saying that the OP’s stallion isn’t amazing, or that he isn’t ideal for breeding to WB mares, just that the offspring are not eligible for most WB registries and may not be easy to sell and that mare owners may opt for a more “mainstream” stallion choice in light of these facts.[/QUOTE]

No disagreements from me. You’ll see in my earlier posts, I point out the Euro WB registries have Euro rules - if you want to play in their sandbox, you need to play by their rules. If you want to abide by other rules - there are other options already - AWS, PHR are the two biggest that come to mind, if OP wants to breed QH/WB (or QH/TB/WB) crosses. If done well, they can be nice horses - make educated breeding decisions