Pomeranian or papillon?

[neversaynever]

I know a middle-aged couple (no small kids) that are looking for a small companion dog (lap warmer size), energetic but not hyper, friendly/sociable, not real yappy or possessive of one person, that would settle down to chill with its people. Cute and fluffy is a plus. They intend on getting the dog out and about, so temperament and ability to get along with other people and pets are important.

I thought of a Pomeranian or papillon. Can anyone provide some pluses and minuses about these two breeds? Can housebreaking be an issue and/or marking by males (the dog will be a pet and will be neutered/spayed)?

[S1969]

I’d say go with the breed where you can find the better, closer, breeder.

I’m sure others will chime in with more details on breed traits. I suspect both will have similar issues with housebreaking and/or marking, just like all dogs do. I think some people have a harder time housebreaking small dogs; not sure exactly why that is - whether it’s because they are small, and low to the ground, or for other reasons.

My dog’s breeder also has two papillons; both well-bred for conformation. The older one is nice - sweet but a little shy…apparently too big for conformation. The younger one is a lunatic and I’d probably give the dog away if I were mine. She is SOOOO annoying. She spins and spins and licks you until you’re soaking wet. It’s possible that she needs more exercise and a job - she is only 3 or so. But I think she’s the most neurotic thing I’ve ever seen. I have no idea how my friend trims her nails or cuts her hair, because she never stops moving.

So…as I said, others can give impressions of breed traits - I do know that papillons are quite athletic despite their small size, and often compete in agility. Not sure about poms. But definitely find a good breeder and evaluate temperament.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=S1969;8389170]
I’d say go with the breed where you can find the better, closer, breeder.

I’m sure others will chime in with more details on breed traits. I suspect both will have similar issues with housebreaking and/or marking, just like all dogs do. I think some people have a harder time housebreaking small dogs; not sure exactly why that is - whether it’s because they are small, and low to the ground, or for other reasons.

My dog’s breeder also has two papillons; both well-bred for conformation. The older one is nice - sweet but a little shy…apparently too big for conformation. The younger one is a lunatic and I’d probably give the dog away if I were mine. She is SOOOO annoying. She spins and spins and licks you until you’re soaking wet. It’s possible that she needs more exercise and a job - she is only 3 or so. But I think she’s the most neurotic thing I’ve ever seen. I have no idea how my friend trims her nails or cuts her hair, because she never stops moving.

So…as I said, others can give impressions of breed traits - I do know that papillons are quite athletic despite their small size, and often compete in agility. Not sure about poms. But definitely find a good breeder and evaluate temperament.[/QUOTE]

Several reasons shrimpy dogs tend to be harder to housebreak, one that they are given comparatively to their size too much room to roam before they are reliably housebroken.

Let a big dog roam a room or three and keep an eye on it and you can get it outside before it has an accident.
The same room to roam for a little bitty dog, it is a long ways to some far off corner the dog may decide is a good place, away from the action, for a designated bathroom.

Also, it is a bit easier to notice a big dog sniffing around and looking for a place to go than a little dog somewhere in a far off corner.

We had plenty of toy dogs and didn’t have any problem, but we trained/confined them carefully so they didn’t.

As far as those two breeds, I agree, in general, pomeranians tend to have a more steady temperament, papillons may be more active, energetic, busy minded dogs.
It depends on the people and the individual dog which would fit best, hard to say without knowing them.

[Bicoastal]

What state are they in?

[thatmoody]

I love love love both breeds. Currently have both a pom cross and a chi/pap cross, and they are both fantastic dogs. what Bluey said about housebreaking is spot on - I either keep mine harnessed to me or in a smallish crate when they are not directly in my line of sight.

They are both pretty high energy, but most of the poms I’ve known have been really delightful, and you could forgive their puppy silliness. Paps as well - they seem very sweet.

[gloriginger]

what about a king charles cavalier?

[FatCatFarm]

Have had a Pap and was not thrilled; but do have 5 poms if that tells you anything. Love my Poms! The pap we had was shy and snappish and would surreptitiously go after the cats. Also was not the easiest to house break.

Whereas our poms are adorable, beautiful, sweet, cheeky, smart, easy to housebreak, kind, and fun. Four of them often go on trail rides with us and are a hoot. Great little dogs. Will always have them. Have not found ours to be particularly high energy but aren’t doorstops either, rather a happy medium I think. They love to be with their people and have a lot of personality.

ETA: They are good guard dogs and only as yappy as you allow them to be. Have not had any health problems with ours at all, including teeth but none of ours is super tiny. More in the 5 to 10lb range. Their coats do need more maintenance than the Paps.

[cowboymom]

I’ve loved all of both that I’ve known. I’ve known a Pom that herded sheep better than a Border Collie and the Pap I’ve known the best was a sweet sweet bright friend to an elderly family member.

The only difference between the two that my experience gives is that the Poms were very yappy and extremely fuzzy and the Pap was better on both counts.

[Bluey]

A friend had a GSD and a pom and when it came time to load cattle or horses, the GSD would go to the house and the pom was right in there helping like a true herding dog, not just a stock chaser and heel biter.
They come from reindeer herding stock, so that some spitz dogs have good herding instincts is expected.

Poms are very fuzzy, but paps have longer softer hair that mats worse.

Best is to see what you have available and then see what those look like, as there can be at times even more differences between individuals than breeds.

[Gestalt]

I’ve had three papillons and they were fantastic dogs. Very intelligent and hardy. I love their look and brains. In the small dog category they are great for obstacle events. The poms I’ve met have been yappy, nippy balls of fur. Plus they’re toothless by mid-age.

For a calm, friendly lap dog how about a llaspso apso (sp?). They seem calm but obedient and they have beautiful coats.

[Gestalt]

My papillons never had a problem with mattes. Their coat is soft and silky. Easily brushed each day.

[cowboymom]

The Pap I knew had a thin soft easily kept coat, FWIW.

I have a Yorkie right now that is an extremely mellow sweet, low maintenance dog. I’ve never had one before a friend gave me this one and I’m amazed at what a nice quiet little dog she is.

Honestly, I’d look to see what small dog is possibly recently homeless in your area. I see all the time in our ads dogs whose owners have had to go to a home or even passed away.

[D_BaldStockings]

You may also want to consider a toy American Eskimo

[neversaynever]

Bicoastal - they are in E TN, no a plethora of “reputable” breeders for those dogs around there so difficult to visit serious breeders and see the dogs long enough to determine personalities of the parents and puppies in a litter.

They have been around one Pom, a spayed female around the age of 4 or 5 that was around 7-8 lbs. They were delighted with the personality - happy dog, not yappy or overprotective but would bark if someone came to the door or if it wanted to play, active and playful in spurts but not hyper, loved being a lap dog and being with people, and was great with other pets. Since this was the only Pom they had been around, they weren’t sure if it was “typical” of the breed or just that particular dog and wanted to find out more about both Poms and Papiilons. Had not thought about Cavalier King Charles but I think they want a little smaller dog, under 10 lbs - more of a lap warmer/cuddler that could share the recliner then one that would sit beside them on the couch. They do not care for Shitzu or Lhasa Apsos. Yorkies are cute, but they don’t want the terrier personality or shy away from the high-strung, nervousness of the Yorkies they have seen. Ditto for chihuahuas.

They have always had large to medium size dogs and know the importance of crate training and basic obedience classes. They are a little wary of rescues because they sometimes come with “baggage” and/or behavior problems that can be difficult to correct. They have adopted rescues in the past with separation anxiety and a male that marked even when tethered to them. It ruined curtains, upholstered chairs, etc. and ended up with a belly band all the time while inside. They really don’t want to have to deal with that again. Not to say a puppy or young dog wouldn’t develop issues, but if the behaviors aren’t ingrained they can be modified more easily.

[Laurierace]

The best barn dog I ever had was a Pom. She was my heart too. My current Pom is a good barn dog and a very good therapy dog. Neither had a mean bone in their body and never met a stranger unless they dared walk past the fence.

[Romany]

Both breeds are lovely!

However, what about a small poodle? No shedding, super smart, sweet cuddly personality.

And they might just find a sweetheart with a lesser known heritage through local rescues, etc, if they’re up for that. Never hurts to suggest it, I find.

[JBD]

We had a Pom/Chi growing up and I’ve currently got a small Pom that was surrendered to our local shelter.
She is the happiest, friendliest dog you’d ever want to meet. And sooo adorable. She loves to do funny things to engage me and even does mock ferocious in a charming way.
The bad news is that whoever bred her probably concentrated on size and color only. She started having seizures shortly after we adopted her. When she had 3 within a 2 hour period, the vet put her on phenobarbital. That controls them pretty well.
One day she was limping and her work up at the vets showed horrible disc degeneration as well as a really funky set of hips. He treated her at the clinic for a few days and she was better. However that explains why she can’t really run nor climb over anything bigger than a doorway.

So, moral of that story is, yes I love Poms but get one from a reputable source. P

[cowboymom]

We used to visit the lady with the sheep working Pom when my son was a baby until he was about 2… I asked him once if he remembered visiting that lady b/c she was a real character… he thought for a moment and asked “did she have a little dog that barked a lot?” :lol: We used to have ringing headaches after visiting her… but the dog wasn’t used to company at all and she was super cute, we don’t hold it against her.

[Calvincrowe]

We love our Pom…though he was surrendered to a shelter (stray my foot!)…and clearly had health issues and was not house trained well. They are prone to tracheal collapse and heart issues. Ours is very small, can be “barky”, hates loud noises, but loves my husband, playing with toys, helping in the barn. He’s needed tons of health care (teeth, tumor removal, heart meds) but what a character! He also seems to have a “wandering toe” and we have to keep an eye on him, or he just keeps on following his nose. Thankfully, our property is fenced.

[french_fry]

In the rescue world poms have a reputation for being yappy and papillons have a reputation for being snappy. However, rescues tend to see the worst of the worst in terms of puppy mill dogs, etc.

That said, the (admittedly few) poms and papillons I’ve interacted with have fit the stereotype even when they’ve come from reputable breeders.

I would vote cavalier all the way.