Pony Height Check Uproar Article

When I was riding ponies, there were only 2 divisions: small and large. The dividing height was 13h. I do not understand why they went to 3 division, except for the growing number of ponies. How about going back to 2 divisions and then splitting each division by age, if the numbers warrant it?

Yes there will be cheaters, but not as many. Any time you have a pony v. horse division, there will be cheaters. But, with this system, there will be 1/3rd fewer of them. :slight_smile:

After all, they divide junior hunters in small and large and then subdivide by age. Ponies could be done the same way.

Why can’t they handle random measurement of ponies just like they do drugs? At every show where the drug testers are on the grounds, they can pull one (or more, according to numbers entered) ponies from each division for a remeasure.

[QUOTE=Linny;7806332]
While many smaller ponies can be demons (they are short and therefore closer to Hell) [/QUOTE]

This is just the best :lol:

[QUOTE=Kestrel;7809339]
Why can’t they handle random measurement of ponies just like they do drugs? At every show where the drug testers are on the grounds, they can pull one (or more, according to numbers entered) ponies from each division for a remeasure.[/QUOTE]

One of the things that is different about the ponies is that you are allowed to measure without shoes, but show with shoes, so for the hard measures, it might involve a farrier coming, removing the shoes, trimming the feet, and resetting the shoes.

This is expensive and time consuming and inconvenient.

An easy way to solve this is to say that the pony must measure as it competes - that you don’t get to call the farrier. Alternately, the height of the shoes could be measured and subtracted, and/or the length of the hoof+ shoe can be compared to the pony’s original measurement (this is recorded on the card) and the difference accounted for.

[QUOTE=poltroon;7809869]
One of the things that is different about the ponies is that you are allowed to measure without shoes, but show with shoes, so for the hard measures, it might involve a farrier coming, removing the shoes, trimming the feet, and resetting the shoes.

This is expensive and time consuming and inconvenient.

An easy way to solve this is to say that the pony must measure as it competes - that you don’t get to call the farrier. Alternately, the height of the shoes could be measured and subtracted, and/or the length of the hoof+ shoe can be compared to the pony’s original measurement (this is recorded on the card) and the difference accounted for.[/QUOTE]

Back 25 years ago when I was doing ponies, it was “measure as you compete” We still had a lot of violators back then, though perhaps it’s worse now.

[QUOTE=poltroon;7809869]
One of the things that is different about the ponies is that you are allowed to measure without shoes, but show with shoes, so for the hard measures, it might involve a farrier coming, removing the shoes, trimming the feet, and resetting the shoes.

This is expensive and time consuming and inconvenient.

An easy way to solve this is to say that the pony must measure as it competes - that you don’t get to call the farrier. Alternately, the height of the shoes could be measured and subtracted, and/or the length of the hoof+ shoe can be compared to the pony’s original measurement (this is recorded on the card) and the difference accounted for.[/QUOTE]
As someone going through this process with a pony who measures VERY close to the FEI limit, it seems to me that their system is really the best. Ponies can measure up to 148 if barefoot, 149 with shoes, and if measured at a competition they can measure 150 to account for differences in atmosphere, etc.

The pony must compete as measured (can’t pull shoes and then put them back on). Permanent cards are done at age 8 and are aged by dentition not owner statement. I don’t see why this can’t be done for hunter ponies except that I’m sure someone will cry foul.

In Canada they do random pony measurements, even if they are carded.

If they have shoes (and possibly pads), then they measure the pads and shoes and subtract that from the total height.

[QUOTE=soloudinhere;7810512]
As someone going through this process with a pony who measures VERY close to the FEI limit, it seems to me that their system is really the best. Ponies can measure up to 148 if barefoot, 149 with shoes, and if measured at a competition they can measure 150 to account for differences in atmosphere, etc.

The pony must compete as measured (can’t pull shoes and then put them back on). Permanent cards are done at age 8 and are aged by dentition not owner statement. I don’t see why this can’t be done for hunter ponies except that I’m sure someone will cry foul.[/QUOTE]

I think that’s a great system. Simple and to the point.

I just don’t get why they can’t measure as they compete but measure and subtract the shoes. Doesn’t make sense to go thru all that hassle.

[QUOTE=findeight;7811251]
I just don’t get why they can’t measure as they compete but measure and subtract the shoes. Doesn’t make sense to go thru all that hassle.[/QUOTE]

That makes perfect sense to me. And unless I am confusing H/J shows with breed shows (and I might be) when I was a kid-- that’s how it was done?!

I think microchips, random spot measurements at shows, allowing for shoes by measuring them, and adding a reasonable margin of error would solve most of the problems and it doesn’t seem like an unreasonable solution. Yes, the microchipping will have a cost associated with it-- but IMHO that’s the direction we as a group need to go for a myriad of reasons including horse welfare reasons. And so, I think it’s an appropriate cost to impose.

Interestingly, I have just spent too much time trying to find out who is on the hunter pony committee (or any hunter committee). I’ll be damed if I can find a list of committee members anywhere.
I was curious to see if the people involved in the rules and rule making had substantial ties to the division itself. My gut feeing says “yes” but I cannot find a way to determine it. Has anyone else found a list of members of the pony hunter committee?

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7811585]
Interestingly, I have just spent too much time trying to find out who is on the hunter pony committee (or any hunter committee). I’ll be damed if I can find a list of committee members anywhere.
I was curious to see if the people involved in the rules and rule making had substantial ties to the division itself. My gut feeing says “yes” but I cannot find a way to determine it. Has anyone else found a list of members of the pony hunter committee?[/QUOTE]

Your wish is my command…
http://www.ushja.org/committees/committeedetails.aspx?id=627

To find committees go to USHJA, click on committees, look up Pony. Some are very involved, some are not, but most have been at one time or another.

If we can make the spot check measurements less of a scary high stakes thing for the compliant ponies, they can be done quickly and with much less drama. On a spot check, you don’t need an accurate measure for most of the ponies, all you need is a ballpark “under the limit.” I don’t think extra farrier work is to the benefit of the ponies or the division.

The Hunter Working Group of the USHJA is the committee that is the “final group” to review the suggestions, etc. and bring those ideas to the table at the convention. Take a look there too…http://www.ushja.org/committees/committeedetails.aspx?id=614

  1. Every horse/pony to be measured must have a microchip. Paperwork for microchip (vet who put it in, microchip number, horse/pony identification) must accompany horse/pony to measurement, and a copy of this paperwork will be included with measurement.

  2. Photographs of horse/pony will be included on measurement card. Front, side and any distinguishing markings (scar, brand, etc.). Of course, measurement cards will need to be larger to accommodate.

  3. All horses/ponies competing at Jr. Hunter Finals and Pony Finals will be measured. If they measure according to their division, they go about their business. If not, the Chief Steward at the competition will do another remeasurement, and that information forwarded onto USEF for additional action, if needed.

  4. Stewards are allowed to spot measure horses/ponies at shows. A report of the measurement is filed with USEF for additional action, if needed.

To me, it doesn’t sound like such a hard fix for the problem.

[QUOTE=Kestrel;7809339]
Why can’t they handle random measurement of ponies just like they do drugs? At every show where the drug testers are on the grounds, they can pull one (or more, according to numbers entered) ponies from each division for a remeasure.[/QUOTE]

This makes the most sense from an outsider’s POV. Measure how tall the pony is at the competition, shod as it is for competing. No changing anything, just like for drug testing where they follow you right from the exit of the arena.

[QUOTE=poltroon;7811824]
If we can make the spot check measurements less of a scary high stakes thing for the compliant ponies, they can be done quickly and with much less drama. On a spot check, you don’t need an accurate measure for most of the ponies, all you need is a ballpark “under the limit.” I don’t think extra farrier work is to the benefit of the ponies or the division.[/QUOTE]

Right, the FEI method of allowing a little “growing room” for measurements taken at shows when the pony might be tense and up, and measuring the shoes and subtracting without having to actually pull the shoes makes sense. No fuss, allows for spot checking while providing that yes, ponies do not stay EXACTLY the same height all the time depending on conditions.

I have observed this discussion and taken part in it on the FB page devoted to this issue.

A huge problem is the premise that no one should have to be inconvenienced or disappointed, let along be written up as a violator or possibly lose a client as a result of any housecleaning that would result from any rule changes. As long as this is the starting point, it’s hard to see how any system will be kept honest. We need to work on this. There are too many who simply won’t contemplate owning up to having made “mistakes,” or worse, just violating the rules with impunity. But that discussion is off the table, because we “have” to find a solution that won’t upset any apple carts.

Will the convoluted proposal that has been made work? Sure, and it will change the parameters of the pony division. Some changes will be planned, but others would be unintended. It might be worthwhile to experiment with it for a week or two at major shows to see how it works in practice–just pick any two weeks during the year, have the all ponies show that way so that points will be affected in the same way for all during that period of time. Seeing how it works in practice would be a good idea.

My own suggestion is more conventional: basically, apply the existing rules on a more regular basis, but allow for frequent remeasures of ponies that don’t make the height. I have sent it to Mary Babick and posted it on the FB thread:

[I] All ponies should be subject to periodic measurement. All measurements should become part of the each pony’s records and available to anyone (i.e. displayed along with it’s recording information).

Every pony should need to measure into the section they are showing in on the first day of that division. Ponies that are comfortably within the range can show their cards, the ones within that 1/2" (if that’s the magic range of dispute) will have to be measured each show (it’s not that many ponies at most shows, and at other shows there are enough stewards to cope). If they measure out, they aren’t thrown out forever, they just don’t show in THAT section at THAT show; instead, they must show in the section they measure into. As soon as they measure back in, they can show in that section at another show.

Owners should be able to REQUEST a measurement at any point in time, from any steward, at any show, on any day (a prudent consumer protection mechanism from the sound of things).

Documentation of these measurements will eventually reflect a trend toward one division or another for ponies that are measured repeatedly by different stewards in different settings. Stewards should be prepared to perform measures on ponies that are “close” (i.e. within that 1/2" range) many times during the show year (again, it’s not that many ponies–as the others won’t have to be done frequently if at all).

So bottom line is that EVERY pony should be expected to measure into whatever division it competes in on the first day of the division at every show. Points will count ONLY in the section they are earned in, which will keep the oversized ponies from regularly cleaning up in divisions they don’t ALWAYS measure into (though they may do it occasionally).

At Pony Finals, or any show with a division that requires a minimum number of qualifying points, part of check-in should be measuring all the ponies that have shown in more than one height section during the qualifying period and ensuring that on the first day, they are measuring as they should for the division they are showing in.

For the over 14.2 ponies that repeatedly turn out to be cobs, at long last can we PLEASE have a division for the ONLY sized equine that at the moment has no height section offered for it.[/I]

Many aspects of this issue are of particular concern to those who breed ponies.

I would like to remind pony breeders that are aware, and inform those who aren’t that the United States Sport Horse Breeders Association has been created to provide representation for and voice the concerns of breeders, and that the USSHBA is open to breeders of ponies as well as horses.

Mary O’Connor
Interim USSHBA President