Pony Height Check Uproar Article

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Ammy Owner;7807442]
Can anyone explain this?

Pony 1

Changes to Pony 2

But pony 2 was born in 2005 not 2004, to same sire and dam, and is now a small

“The problem with this is that the sire and dam had an actual foal in 2005, Farmore Prima Ballerina. According to USEF’s own records, the dam had 3 foals in a 12 month period- one foal in 2004 and two foals in 2005…USEF did not find it suspicious that the 2004 medium pony disappeared and that the mare gave birth to two foals in 2005, both small ponies, each one three months apart.”

Not my own quote or research for the record. Just curious how this could happen and how we could better police issues like this.[/QUOTE]

If that really is true then USEF isn’t policing things very carefully, or doing basic checks. I’m not surprised though. How many times do we see things falling through the cracks in the corporate world?

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7807471]
If that really is true then USEF isn’t policing things very carefully, or doing basic checks. I’m not surprised though. How many times do we see things falling through the cracks in the corporate world?[/QUOTE]
Wow…13.1 to 12.1 7/8!!

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;7807471]
If that really is true then USEF isn’t policing things very carefully, or doing basic checks. I’m not surprised though. How many times do we see things falling through the cracks in the corporate world?[/QUOTE]

I don’t think there are any checks on registration. If you fill out the forms and enclose a check, USEF registers the horse. No cross checking occurs.

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7807582]
I don’t think there are any checks on registration. If you fill out the forms and enclose a check, USEF registers the horse. No cross checking occurs.[/QUOTE]
But USEF pays attention when it appears on COTH…remember that horse that Kelley Farmer showed as a green horse that had done a one star event? Was it called Amber Eyes?

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=Limerick;7807601]
But USEF pays attention when it appears on COTH…remember that horse that Kelley Farmer showed as a green horse that had done a one star event? Was it called Amber Eyes?[/QUOTE]

It was called RF Amber Eyes as an eventer, then magically got a year younger and was named Commentary.

[Anne]

Said mare is now named Fonteyn and just showed at Harrisburg.

[Ponyplusaninch]

[QUOTE=Tackpud;7807227]
The measurement rules do not just apply to hunter/jumper ponies. They also apply to te Welsh, Shetland, and Hackney divisions to name a few. So any changes in sizes affect more than just us - USEF would never be able to change those heights since so many different disciplines would be against it.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifying that!

[Velvet]

It’s so odd that the dishonest people look like they’re going to win the argument against remeasuring and doing it at a competition where everyone should be on equal footing (figuratively and literally).

I mean, if you’re honest about everything and have done your homework, then it should be a no-brainer and everyone should think this is good as a double check. I would think those against the rule would then only be the dishonest people who know they are doing something wrong and are trying desperately not to get caught.

Maybe the honest people just aren’t loud enough on the side of implementing some better checks and balances because they’re afraid of the repercussions? Which is an even sadder commentary on the sport if that’s the case.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=Limerick;7807601]
But USEF pays attention when it appears on COTH…remember that horse that Kelley Farmer showed as a green horse that had done a one star event? Was it called Amber Eyes?[/QUOTE]

Someone COMPLAINED to USEF. The COMPLAINT got their attention. The registration paperwork itself sailed through.

[Limerick]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7807822]
Someone COMPLAINED to USEF. The COMPLAINT got their attention. The registration paperwork itself sailed through.[/QUOTE]

How do you know that?

[vxf111]

The registration was in the USEF database, it was checked during the COTH discussion

[Madeline]

[QUOTE=Pony+ an inch;7807079]
Is there any reason why the large pony height division can’t increase to accommodate those honies–note my username, I owned own, and she would have been a stellar large children’s pony hunter, but she was just over. I have never understood why we can’t make a shift in the measurements. And after that, I’m with Fiction and Lockmeade. Just have to be stricter with measuring. The dishonesty and lack of ethics I’ve encountered when it comes to ponies’ height (and other things…) just astounds me.[/QUOTE]

What would be the point? OK . You made 15h the top for large ponies. So all the current cheating just moves up 2". You have not solved anything.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=Tackpud;7807227]
The measurement rules do not just apply to hunter/jumper ponies. They also apply to te Welsh, Shetland, and Hackney divisions to name a few. So any changes in sizes affect more than just us - USEF would never be able to change those heights since so many different disciplines would be against it.[/QUOTE]

The Hackneys & ASB ponies have their own creative measurement moments. I heard of a three gaited ‘pony’ that was almost 16h.

I recall a funeral with a group of trainers discussing a show some years where the management put out the directive that all 1st & 2nd place horse would be drug tested. Their reaction - “Fantastic! Now I can load that nickel plug SOB & maybe get third place.”

Never underestimate the unintended consequences.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Pony+ an inch;7807079]
Is there any reason why the large pony height division can’t increase to accommodate those honies–note my username, I owned own, and she would have been a stellar large children’s pony hunter, but she was just over.[/QUOTE]
There has to be a line in the sand some where. No matter where you move the line there are going to be people who are not happy about it.

On the topic of the pony who became a year younger and shorter and the mare had two foals the same year…maybe no red flags were waved because of embryo transplant being an option. A mare can have more than one foal in any given year that way.

[Thoroughbred1201]

I like the idea of the top ribbon winners at the top shows being re-measured as a matter of course.

And frankly, what’s with the permanent card? I’ve never understood that. It’s just a way to cheat. How about re-measure at the first show each pony shows in each year.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=Thoroughbred1201;7808381]
I like the idea of the top ribbon winners at the top shows being re-measured as a matter of course.

And frankly, what’s with the permanent card? I’ve never understood that. It’s just a way to cheat. How about re-measure at the first show each pony shows in each year.[/QUOTE]

maybe in theory, in practice it would be a nightmare at early shows with hundreds of Ponies… Unless we get a quicker way to measure.

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Thoroughbred1201;7808381]
I like the idea of the top ribbon winners at the top shows being re-measured as a matter of course.

And frankly, what’s with the permanent card? I’ve never understood that. It’s just a way to cheat. How about re-measure at the first show each pony shows in each year.[/QUOTE]

Getting my pony’s permanent card took nearly an hour, and she’s 13.3 5/8" :lol:
(I’m sitting there thinking, "No, really, let’s not sweat to the eighth inch as the pony gets more and more fidgety.) Probably the steward took 20 minutes with her.

If you were to imagine doing say 30 ponies at a show in January, when the days are short, you can imagine it might not be all sunshine and roses.

That said, I think regular remeasurements would help, and championship events seem like a great place to do them - you can plan ahead for it, they’re long big things anyway, and what better way to see that the ponies can measure and win on the same day?

[Darkwave]

[QUOTE=findeight;7808410]
maybe in theory, in practice it would be a nightmare at early shows with hundreds of Ponies… Unless we get a quicker way to measure.[/QUOTE]

I know! They should have a walkthough scanning thing like you go through at the airports - each pony could walk through it when being jogged! It could be shipped from show to show!

(just adding a bit of silliness - I’m guessing we’re at least 50 years from that being feasible)

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Tackpud;7807227]
The measurement rules do not just apply to hunter/jumper ponies. They also apply to te Welsh, Shetland, and Hackney divisions to name a few. So any changes in sizes affect more than just us - USEF would never be able to change those heights since so many different disciplines would be against it.[/QUOTE]

They can be different by division. Dressage ponies are measured in centimeters and the height is in line with the FEI standard, which allows them to be a smidge taller than hunter ponies.

(As a result, the measurement card is also different; my pony has both a hunter pony measurement card and a dressage pony measurement card.)

[poltroon]

[QUOTE=Darkwave;7808468]
I know! They should have a walkthough scanning thing like you go through at the airports - each pony could walk through it when being jogged! It could be shipped from show to show!

(just adding a bit of silliness - I’m guessing we’re at least 50 years from that being feasible)[/QUOTE]

Part of the question is, more seriously, what does it mean to be 14.2 hands? That sounds kind of like splitting hairs, I realize. A pony that is 14.1 hands is clearly going to measure as a pony no matter how or who you measure, if the pony has stopped growing and the first measurement was honest.

But, as you create ponies getting closer and closer to the limit, you start to see that small differences in how the pony stands, the length of the foot, the amount of hair on the pony, a slight error in levelness on the stick, all these things create some non-zero amount of error in the measurement that allow two honest careful measurements to vary by some amount. Even a truly leveled and calibrated laser doesn’t eliminate these issues.

And so this is how a pony that will measure under 14.2 EVERY time is a little different than a pony that will measure under 14.2 ONE time.

So, how much can it vary? How much are we willing to allow it to vary?

So that’s the engineering part of the problem, and that combined with deliberate fraud and the very high stakes (an eighth inch difference on the final card in some cases could be worth $100,000 (!) ) makes this a somewhat more difficult problem to Just Solve with say a computer scanner than it might otherwise be.

That said! (/nerdout) I do think the system we have would work fine if we just remeasured ponies at the major championships. It would just be part of the competition, as much as the model or the hack.