Poor topline/condition in pasture puff

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Hi. Anyone have any ideas what might cause poor topline and general condition in a pasture puff TB? All of our other pasture puffs have great toplines despite not being in work. I don’t think it is work related because he never bulked up in work either. He’s a 17 y/o TB. He has a good body weight (6 on the scale).

Some things he has had over the years that make me suspect something metabolic is at play like cushings or PPID… but he doesn’t present typically?
White spot in eye. Vet gave ointment and said call if it gets bigger. That was 4 years ago.
Always been a hard keeper
Roached back that has gotten even more prominent with age

Could he have cushings or PPID? He doesn’t get lots of abscesses. He doesn’t get really furry, isn’t slow to shed out, and doesn’t have a cresty neck.

He’s been seen by a vet and chiropractor regularly. Chiro notes he is out in his pelvis every time she comes, but that’s about it.

He is in a pasture setting with free choice hay from a round bale. He lives outside 24/7. He gets 4qts of Poulin FiberMax and 2 qts of alfalfa cubes a day. This feed makes all of our other TBs fat. He is not skinny by any means, he has a layer of fat over his ribcage, but a pencil thin neck, weedy mane & tail, and no topline.

[mmeqcenter]

Why would you expect a horse that is not worked to have a good topline? That’s pretty standard for pasture puffs, especially hard keepers. Some will have a topline covered in fat, but not all of them build fat up easily in those areas, and have to be in regular work to build muscle. They’re all built different. I’d far rather see a pasture-pet at a healthy weight with no topline, than a 7-8 obese thing just because the owner thought they needed a topline.

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I don’t think poor topline is standard in pasture puffs that live outside, and are healthy. I have always been told that nutrition and genetics make a good topline, and I believe that to be true. If there is something he is not getting nutrition wise, I would like to fix it.

He is at a healthy weight. It’s the lack of what should be normal muscling that is concerning to me.

[mmeqcenter]

Genetics, nutrition, and exercise make a good topline. A good topline, IMO, is muscle, not fat, and muscle can only be created with exercise. Fat is a faux topline. All horses are not created equal, and some hold onto more muscle than others when sitting doing nothing other than walking around a paddock all day.

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Do you think horses that live outside do not get exercise? They are not stalled all day. They move around more than most horses in work do, going from pasture to pasture grazing. They also exercise plenty while playing.

I’m not expecting a hunter topline if that wasn’t clear.

Is “muscle atrophy” a better term to use?

[mmeqcenter]

Perhaps our version of “poor topline” is not the same, thus we are not understanding what the other is saying.

Walking is absolutely wonderful exercise, please note I’ve commented on the “how much do you walk” dressage thread singing it’s praises. It doesn’t change the fact that for some horses, it’s just not enough to develop a super awesome topline. Also, walking in a pasture at a leisurely pace and in spurts throughout the day, is not the same as a one hour marching walk under saddle using themselves correctly. I have a 21 year old retired gelding (he has navicular disease) who is a hard keeper and lives out 24/7. He has zero topline because his whole life he’s required 5x/week hard work to develop any muscle up there, and is a healthy weight. It’s fine. See photo attached.

Yes, muscle atrophy is a different story. Perhaps posting photos of the horse would help people see what you’re referring to.

Contributing factors could be not enough protein (what type of hay does he have 24/7 access to?), horse could be in pain somewhere which tends to make them just not look all that great, or simply not enough calories. 4 quarts isn’t much feed for a hard keeper. My 21 year old eats more per day than his 10 year old sister that I ride 6x/week. He stays a solid 4.5-5 body condition (on purpose, I am not on board with fat/obese horses, especially when they’re old/retired/have an issue) with free choice hay and out on (overgrazed) grass, ~8 pounds grain, and 4 pounds alfalfa cubes per day.

[Scribbler]

I think we need to see a photo since “good topline” means something different to everyone.

[JB]

We definitely need a conformation-type picture. Conformation plays the biggest role in what’s possible. That. along with body type - stock horse type build, or Akhal-Teke type build.

“Roached back that has gotten even more prominent with age” - prominent, or worse? Do you know for sure the roach is genetic, and not injury-related? A sore hind end can result in compensation over time that presents as a roach, and would certainly keep him from using his body properly. When younger, age works with him in keeping muscle, but as he gets older, age works against him.

[S1969]

Yes could be PPID, worms, Lyme, poor teeth, other chronic conditions, poor conformation, or all of the above. A PPID horse would not typically have a cresty neck as an initial symptom, but muscle atrophy would be a likely symptom. Especially in a horse that is not also insulin resistant, which many PPID horses are not.

Hard to reconcile “hard keeper” and BCS of 6 for a TB. I agree that “roached back” sounds ominous and would think there is a conformation issue or an injury involved.

Can you post a photo?

Certainly it wouldn’t hurt to do a full blood profile and test for Cushings.

[TMares]

With stifle issues come accommodations in his movement to compensate for the stiffness. So he loses muscle that a freer-moving horse would keep.

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Apologies, I do not know how to work the multiple quote function… I don’t have a photo, but I tried to find some online that show a similar condition… If I had to verbally explain it: he has a very thin neck, with almost no muscle to it. His ribs and dock/tail have good fat deposits. My vet has rated him as in great weight. His neck, withers, spine are raised and looks like it belongs on a horse with poor body weight, but his weight is fine.

This is the closest picture I could find, but he doesn’t stand under himself like that and he has more flesh over his ribs and belly.
https://thehorse.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/TH-LEGACY-IMAGE-ID-488-emnd-horse-1280x640.jpg

JB, I think it might be genetic and possibly from racing. He had the roach when he came off the track but it was subtle and I was the only one that seemed to notice it. Now it is very obvious. I can’t tell if it was always this roached and the falling away of muscle made it more obvious.

@S1969

Hard to reconcile “hard keeper” and BCS of 6 for a TB. I agree that “roached back” sounds ominous and would think there is a conformation issue or an injury involved.

He’s a hard keeper by boarding barn standards… but is in good weight because he has access to grass and hay free-choice. He was very hard to keep weight on when he was in a boarding barn. This is the first time in his life he has had “so little” grain. I credit the grass and hay to his good weight.

He doesn’t have any conformation flaws that would contribute to the roached back. He has good straight legs, a great shoulder, and nice coupling and hind quarter angles… He is one of our best moving horses, too. Unless there is a specific trait that causes roaching? I always thought it was from too much work and genetic. He raced for several years.

TMares, I subscribe to that idea generally, but he had issues being difficult to keep in good condition and bulking up before the injury, which was several years after I got him. The injury wasn’t chronic.

[DarkBayUnicorn]

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He’s been seen by a vet and chiropractor regularly. Chiro notes he is out in his pelvis every time she comes, but that’s about it.

Being “out” in his pelvis screams ‘cause’ of roach back to me. Or, being out is the result of the roach back. Chicken and egg. Everything else is likely compensatory.

What was the injury that caused him to retire in his mid-teens?

Given age, breeding and background, he may also be coping with C-spine issues, which could prevent muscling in his neck despite all best human efforts.

[JB]

Yeah, we really do need a picture. The picture you showed shows a horse with fairly poor conformation which will never allow him to develop good muscling because he will never be able to use his body well - front and rear ends are a problem.

I agree that regularly being “out” in the pelvis can absolutely be the cause of postural roaching.

[Cynical25]

My retired, 25ish year old Arab has very little muscle tone, despite galloping around the pasture at full speed multiple times a day, and regularly trotting figure eights around her pasture mate trying to get him to chase her. Seriously zero topline, with highly prominent withers and spine dropping sharply to her ribs, protruding shoulder & hip bones, and the thinnest neck I’ve ever seen in my life - she looks OLD. But she’s actually got the perfect amount of fat over her rib cage, a shiny coat, and tons of energy. All 3 vets that have seen her this last year (she’s accident prone) have been happy with her actual weight and condition. The ability to build & maintain muscle mass decreases in most species as they age.

[DinkyDonk]

Since he’s 17, if he were mine, I’d have him tested for Cushing’s/PPID. I have 2 Cushing’s animals, one diagnosed at 12, the other diagnosed at 17. My gelding had his hip go out, and chiropractor, after he worked his magic, told me to back him up 10 steps everyday in hand, which I faithfully did for several years; he’s not had a problem since.

[S1969]

@Cynical25

My retired, 25ish year old Arab has very little muscle tone, despite galloping around the pasture at full speed multiple times a day, and regularly trotting figure eights around her pasture mate trying to get him to chase her. Seriously zero topline, with highly prominent withers and spine dropping sharply to her ribs, protruding shoulder & hip bones, and the thinnest neck I’ve ever seen in my life - she looks OLD. But she’s actually got the perfect amount of fat over her rib cage, a shiny coat, and tons of energy. All 3 vets that have seen her this last year (she’s accident prone) have been happy with her actual weight and condition. The ability to build & maintain muscle mass decreases in most species as they age.

And my 25 year old retired TB looks pretty good and does almost nothing. I might test your horse for Cushings too - muscle atrophy is often a first sign. I might also reconsider her diet. 25 is not really old for most horses that are in good health. “Spine dropping sharply to her ribs” sounds like she needs more food.

[JB]

I agree that very little muscle tone despite what sounds likes a very active pasture life, highly prominent withers, spine dropping sharply to her ribs, and protruding hip and shoulder bones with a thin neck, is not normal

Weight (rib coverage) is separate from appropriate muscle mass. Cushing’s and not enough quality protein are the usual suspects.

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He had a stifle injury. His roach was present before that. I think the roach getting worse might be in relation to the injury. Not sure if the lack of topline is in relation to the injury, though. He never really “filled out” in work even before the injury. Always looked more rangy/scrawny to me.

I’ll definitely ask my vet about Cushings. Some other things he does make me a bit concerned. He’s started to drop whenever I pick his feet or hold them up for a length of time, and does have trouble holding his hinds up for the farrier. I assumed it was stifle related but it’s both legs so maybe not? He also seems to involuntarily drop for the farrier?

I can’t make a comment on the horse’s conformation in the picture I linked. Her feet aren’t shown and she’s standing under herself in pain.

I get horses in work have the best topline, but people saying horses out of work shouldn’t have a topline probably don’t have a good picture of what I am seeing. I have several retirees and they all have great toplines and are in the best condition I have seen them, and I’ve owned a few of them for nearly 20 years. You would never be able to tell they don’t work for a living!

[PonyPenny]

@closeout

He had a stifle injury. His roach was present before that. I think the roach getting worse might be in relation to the injury. Not sure if the lack of topline is in relation to the injury, though. He never really “filled out” in work even before the injury. Always looked more rangy/scrawny to me.

I’ll definitely ask my vet about Cushings. Some other things he does make me a bit concerned. He’s started to drop whenever I pick his feet or hold them up for a length of time, and does have trouble holding his hinds up for the farrier. I assumed it was stifle related but it’s both legs so maybe not? He also seems to involuntarily drop for the farrier?

I can’t make a comment on the horse’s conformation in the picture I linked. Her feet aren’t shown and she’s standing under herself in pain.

I get horses in work have the best topline, but people saying horses out of work shouldn’t have a topline probably don’t have a good picture of what I am seeing. I have several retirees and they all have great toplines and are in the best condition I have seen them, and I’ve owned a few of them for nearly 20 years. You would never be able to tell they don’t work for a living!

Do you not have a phone to take a picture? Go out to the pasture and shoot several photos of different angles and post them here. Proper excercise absolutely affects the top line. Go look at human athletes, no one can get six pack abs without excercise. Proper nutrition and genetics plays a part, but just walking around is not going to do it,

[beowulf]

@PonyPenny

Go look at human athletes, no one can get six pack abs without excercise. Proper nutrition and genetics plays a part, but just walking around is not going to do it,

Lots of WB and TB broodmares/foals have excellent top-lines and are certainly not in work.

Exercise will help what is already there, but you will never get a nice top-line if your horse is not predisposed to it.

Quite different from a six-pack, which any John Doe can get from repetitive, intense exercise. The 6-pack analogy might be a bit of a stretch here, but if you wanted a nice buttery top-line you see in Hunter Jumper world, well that’s mostly genetics and lots of fat, not muscle.

Eventers are some of the fittest athletes there are and you don’t see anywhere close to the same substance of top-lines – and those guys are definitely fitter than your average Marine with an 8-pack or more.

I’ve seen what OP is describing, in horses with muscle myopathies and cervical arthritis. Given all the symptoms that would be my first guess, especially the most recent response about the farrier, which sounds very cervical-arthritisy to me.

MM, PSSM, EPM, Lyme… all can cause general wastage and nebulous physical issues without much fat loss.