Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[TQ1]

In the thoroughbred bashing portion of this thread, have you forgotten the immense influence of the KWPN Improvment Sire, Lucky Boy???

In case you are too young to remember, Lucky Boy sired Olympic Gold Medalists Calypso and The Freak. The Freak was the horse who clinched the Gold Medal for Germany as a catch ride. Calypso won Team Gold at Los Angeles and won the World Cup Finals. I guess their thoroughbred blood did not completely destroy their ability to jump.

There were numerous other Lucky Boys in International Jumping. There were also Internationally successful Event Horses and Dressage Horses sired by Lucky Boy. The fact that we choose to continue the Lucky Boy line and are extremely successful in the Hunter Divisions does not represent a lack of scope or ability or movement. It proves that this line produces exception jumping ability, including scope and style, and excellent movement and impeccable temperament.

[Centerline_Farm]

[QUOTE=nhwr;1869472]
Sandro Hit is too young (he is maybe 11 or 12) yet to say.

You are saying that Florestan, Donnerhall, Flemmingh and Weltmeyer are refiners? Not really, in the offspring I have seen. My experience is that Flemmingh is a sometime refiner and the others are not, definately not. :[/QUOTE]

No, that is not what I am saying at all.
I said some of them are - namely Rubinstein and Sandro Hit (I have seen several adult offspring, including a stallion that I have bred my Rubignon filly to, and they have all been extremely modern type) are refining.

Weltmeyer most definitely is NOT:lol: :lol: :lol: I own a daughter of his and she is my best broodmare, and girlish she is not!! But very, very, very consistent producer and the power is just amazing. Of course that could also come from her Gelderlander mother.

But I have bred this very heavy mare to a Rubinstein son and a Donnerhall son and now to a Florestan son and so far all the foals have been a refinement.

@nhwr;1869472

But this thread is about whether a hunter can perform well enough to be included in a European studbook. :

Exactly, and that is perhaps why you are assuming I wrote or intended things I did not.

And I also think it is a pretty stupid argument. :rolleyes:

[tom]

Spoilsport, I would prefer Condios’ form over the horses you point to any day of the week. You could fit a family of four between the hooves and belly of your preferred jumpers. If this is the standard that you and some other hunter people think is the ideal standard over a fence then I am even more convinced that a “hunter sire” that replicates this type of form has no business being in the KWPN’s RP studbook. Hunter studbook, OK; RP studbook, no way.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=DMK;1869262]
You are not incorrect but what you describe is not necessarily a good thing (case in point is tom’s example of tight lower legs totally ignores that this attribute could be attached to a horse with a quite dangerous front end). Form is there for a Very Good Reason, and in this case it is generally to improve the odds of survival for the rider. Thus we should always preserve the idea that function should follow form, and this is what CBoylen is talking about. [/QUOTE]

I absolutely agree that good form is there for a good reason. Rox Dene’s form is gorgeous - no one is arguing that point. I am simply trying to point out that the European jumper breeders / trainers don’t focus as much on whether a horse jerks its knees to its eyeballs as American hunter breeders/trainers do. My understanding is that they place more emphasis on scope, power, speed, agility, courage, than on picture-perfect form.

And you are right - there are lots of horses that “rise above” their conformation or form faults every day, in almost every discipline (although it is exceedingly difficult for a hunter to rise above its form faults, since form is one of the main things being judged).

And I also agree about the “stovepipe necks” on some horses at USDF breed shows. The horse may have a show-stopping trot, but an upright neck is going to make it very hard to keep the horse consistently connected back to front.

[Spoilsport]

[QUOTE=Fred;1869419]
It would be great if someone could post a pic of Jet Run . . .[/QUOTE]

Here you are. You have to scroll down:

Jet Run

[Black_Forest]

[QUOTE=tom;1869558]
Spoilsport, I would prefer Condios’ form over the horses you point to any day of the week. You could fit a family of four between the hooves and belly of your preferred jumpers. If this is the standard that you and some other hunter people think is the ideal standard over a fence then I am even more convinced that a “hunter sire” that replicates this type of form has no business being in the KWPN’s RP studbook. Hunter studbook, OK; RP studbook, no way.[/QUOTE]

On first glace I quite agree. Having said that, as long as you can also get a family of four between the legs and the JUMP (!!!) it starts to concern me far less. In a jumper the job is to get from the starting line to the finish in the shortest time and leaving all poles up… Sure, I also prefer to see a beautiful bascule with the knees up and the feet tucked tight. Don’t we all. The perfect “Sales” and “Advertising” photo. It doesn’t show if the back end makes the fence though… And when you see pictures that were taken in actual competition you can’t tell if the stride was off a little, or if the horse was put in an impossible spot, or if the photographer missed the right moment to “click” by a split second… And at the end of the day it becomes largely irrelevant what a breeding stallion himself looked like over a jump. If his CHILDREN do the job it becomes irrelevant.

There is a Cento son competing in the 1.50 + classes near me. He is a phenomenon. Your jaw drops when you watch him go round. He bascules like a rubber ball, his knees snap to his ears, his feet slap his belly audibly, he is always a foot over the poles. He rarely wins a class as he is almost always beaten in the jump off, he spends so much time going up… up … floating over the fence,… coming down again … Must see if I can find a photo somewhere…

[Spoilsport]

[QUOTE=tom;1869558]
Spoilsport, I would prefer Condios’ form over the horses you point to any day of the week. You could fit a family of four between the hooves and belly of your preferred jumpers.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I thought you would :lol: ! I think you’re confused about what is good form. Chanda put it well. Condios may be scopey and careful, but he’s hanging his knees, and that is NOT good form in either hunters or jumpers. A horse that has a good bascule and uses his knees correctly does not necessarily slap his belly with his hooves. The pictures I posted are (1) Rox Dene, considered probably the best hunter of all times and (2) Touch of Class, Olympic Gold Medal winner in showjumping in 1984. Others have posted pictures of some of the best jumpers of all times. I just posted one of Jet Run. Not a single one of them is using the knees the way you describe as ideal :no: . These are not hunters, Tom. They’re jumpers.

[tom]

You speak with amazing authority.

Who are you?

What horses do you own?

What horses have you bred?

How many stallions have you guided through the approval process?

How many of your horses have competed at international level?

Why do you hide behind an alias?

[Lynnwood]

Tom please dont feel as if your being attacked. You breed good horses.

Its just some of the statements which of course you are allowed an opinion have been a bit ruff around the edges if I might say so.

Because we have a hunter division in the US maybe thats why most of us are more comfortable with seeing a very nice stallion being competed in the hunters who shows nice form and great scope go on and be approved. If he has the bloodlines and the moves so to speak well than great.

I think the point some have been trying to make to you is that there have been book fulls of international quality jumpers that for some reason or another started in or were very good at hunters prior to their jumper careers. Being a hunter doesnt make you sub par in anyway.

Every horse is individual as to what they can accomplish but there as certian traights that we find most appealing. Scope, ridabliity, Tight front end, careful behind. And most importantly Heart…cant get anywhere with out the desire to be a winnner no matter what your sire/dam’s jumping index.

[tom]

Thank you. But for some to hide behind an alias while speaking rubbish is too much for me.

There is wrong information about jumping technique being written by several posters and it needs to be confronted. Get photos of stallions that have been approved by the major jumping studbooks such as the KWPN and, more importantly, the Holsteiner Verband (because jumping is all they specialize in), and if you can show me that dangling front legs is the norm then I will digitally prostrate myself before the so-called anonymous experts and admit I am wrong.

Here, I’ll make it easy for them…go to
http://213.239.208.29/cms/index.php?idcat=32&lang=1

Now contrast these photos from the Holsteiner Verband with the photos proposed below as showing optimal form. Optimal form for hunters, fine! Hunter people like dangling legs, fine. Optimal form for showjumping, no!

Thanks agan for intervening.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

I really do believe with jumping form in many cases, we are fighting over apples and oranges.

How many horses that tuck that landing gear up to the extreme, with the knees pointing down to add an inch of clearance do that over a 4’, hunter type jump?

How many lovely perfect form Hunters would learn to adjust their legs a bit differently when they are nearing their maxed out over the big jumper fences, to avoid hitting?

My guess is the answer to both would be a lot.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Tom, your link just proved good hunter form! MOST of those stallions knees are UP, above their elbows. The line from elbows to knees goes higher, not lower.

The folding up of the lower legs is from what I have seen a direct result of the jumps getting higher.

So, until we see Popeye K over a 5’6" jump, no way of comparing his form over something that he was not asked to do.

[tom]

Darlyn,

The question on the table is not what do many or most showjumpers or hunters do.

The question is, what is optimal form for hunters and showjumpers?

I posit that what is optimal for a hunter is not optimal for a showjumper. That is why I don’t want to see hunter-style stallions being approved for the KWPN’s RP studbook.

The “experts”, some of whom are anonymus and some of whom are simply mis-guided, claim that the hunter form is THE OPTIMAL form for BOTH showjumpers and hunters. They show photos of one or two successful international jumpers with dangling legs from years ago and ignore the technique that world-class showjumping studbooks require today.

Signing off…

Tom

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

I do agree that a horse that is not tested to show the jump form for jumpers, should be entered into what he is - the Hunter book. I do not see being entered into the Hunter book only as a problem. Jump style over bigger jumps can be shown in a weekend keuring. If a stallion is seeking RP approval instead of Hunter Book approval, then they need ask him the right questions.

[DMK]

@DownYonder;1869601

I absolutely agree that good form is there for a good reason. Rox Dene’s form is gorgeous - no one is arguing that point. I am simply trying to point out that the European jumper breeders / trainers don’t focus as much on whether a horse jerks its knees to its eyeballs as American hunter breeders/trainers do. My understanding is that they place more emphasis on scope, power, speed, agility, courage, than on picture-perfect form.

I think we agree and are simply using different terms, or I’m just not explaining myself well (happens here and there ). As long as European breeders continue to reward a jump like CdlB, they ARE rewarding picture-perfect form. Because picture-perfect form IS the ultimate expression of scope, power and agility (especially in a jumping shute - designed to throw the worst possible combination of distance and approach and see if the horse can save himself, or better yet, save himself in style).

I don’t know, maybe it’s something you have to see in person. I know even the TV can distort your perception of a round, so it’s a rare thing for us to see a truly classic jumper just toying with a huge, technical FEI CSI/CSIO 5* course. Even better is to first watch a horse who is as tight as a tick below the knee over damn near every fence (I agree that it is unfair to judge the whole horse by one picture), but betrays his front end by that ever so slight rolling of his shoulder past the optimal point. Right then and there, even if the horse clears the jump, you know he is signaling a problem. If he were to throw a bascule into the mix, the whole operation would go ass over teakettle at the first less than optimal distance.

But then if you see a horse that can yank up his shoulders, maintain his balance at or behind his shoulders up until the apex of his jump, and truly bascule his body… wow. For most of us, even given a clean round by both types, THAT is the horse we most aspire to own/breed or simply watch. It’s a thing of beauy, because this horse will truly give you the impression he is toying with the course. Bring it on, ratchet it up a hole or two and then maybe he might feel challenged.

Sure, as long as the jumpers remain an objectively scored sport, a horse with less than ideal form can always rise to the top, but as long as breeders are paying some attention to the ideal standard, they can avoid the pitfalls of some exclusively performance driven registries (the JC suffers from this, although the yearling sales is a moderating force for proper form, unfortunately the 2 year old sales destroys all the good work of the first sale).

[Home_Again_Farm]

@ynl063w;1869247

I have no idea if it’s true, but I did read that somewhere. I think it was here on this forum.

Well that MUST make it true. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Spoilsport]

I can’t add much to what DMK said.

To Tom: You have some gorgeous horses. I don’t know why you get defensive or feel you need to attack.

There is a whole range of jumping styles, some closer to the ideal than others. As others have said, jumping form is just one part of what makes a great jumper anyway. In hunters, it’s essential. I’m not a breeder. I opened up the thread because I 'm a fan of Popeye and Tommy Serio. I was surprised by what I read.

The reason I got involved in the discussion is that Tom suggested that the ideal jumper is the one that hits the chest with it’s hooves. I don’t agree. I looked at all the photos in Tom’s link. Lots of beautiful horses. The ones that have the tighter knees and better bascules are not the ones almost hitting their chest with their hooves.

Since Tom suggested that Jet Run, Touch of Class, etc, are old-fashioned horses that wouldn’t win today, I looked up photos of the two top horses at the WEG. You can judge for yourself:

Cavalor Cumano

Cavalor Cumano

Authentic

Authentic

[omare]

As an aside -I do not think it is very helpful to judge any horse based on one still photograph-that photograph may be reflective of the horse’s style but also may reflect that nano second when the landing gear is starting to unfold --or even that the horse is unfolding a nano second early because the horse sees it must land and jump again – or that horse is jumping with speed (as in a jump-off) so has not had the time to fully rotate the forearm or shoulder–or that the rider may have found a close take-off spot - again- not giving the horse the time needed to rotate the shoulders and forearms knees up…

I think TOC folded as tightly as she had too-she was very clever girl. I have seen photos of her curled over a fence with no room for a “family of four.” (And her 1/2 brother also has excellent technique with good use of shoulders/forearms and below the kneees…) So I do not think she is old fashioned…

Similarly I would not judge Tom’s boy off one photo either…he certainly has the below the knee technique-his shoulder and forearm techique may actually be just as stunning --really – who can say off one photo…?

Certainly the most efficient form for a jumper is too have both the upward/forward rotation of the shoulder/forearm and to be tight below the knees. We have photos sampling a little of both. As for bascule-as Black Forest pointed out- while desired in both hunter and jumper rings–too much bascule leaves a jumper with too much time lost over the fence…

I would agree that most hunters, while having the forearm/shoulder technique- do not have the tight below the knees- maybe because they do not have to? The fences are not big enough. And the perfect hunter bascule —may be a hinderance in the jumper ring…but again how much of that is the lack of pace…? Of course the other quality, not discussed, in addition to form over the fence is a horses demeanor between the fences…

(One horse that succesfully competed in both was the GP jumper of Anne Kursinki’s whose name I am forgetting…)

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;1869916]
Well that MUST make it true. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

Ya think???

I don’t know where I saw the conversation about it, but the person was saying that in the pecture posted here, the horse’s body had been moved to a higher angle compared to the jump. If you do a google image search, you can find the same picture, but the body IS at a very slightly different angle. I’m not sure why anyone would alter it, because it doesn’t change the fact that the horse’s form is impeccable.

[pwynnnorman]

“…it does disturb me to see a fine horse criticised so freely…”


“…Unless you have personally seen a stallion go (in this case Popeye K), you have no right to judge what he could or could not do, nor what he should or should not be approved for…”

Honestly, people!
But those incredibly unAmerican sentiments aside, this has been a very intriguing thread. I think there should be a smiley for “Gee, great discussion!”

Why is the html code showing up in all of my posts???