[QUOTE=Tiki;1869092]
Spoilsport - with legs hanging everywhere??? You prefer them???[/QUOTE]
Huh? I was asking Tom if that is what HE preferred 
. The horse with the knees hanging is from his website 
.
[QUOTE=CBoylen;1869101]Gem Twist is another good example of a jumper with good form:
http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/g_twist.htm[/QUOTE]
Just wanted to mention Herocity xx too as a prime example of a modern TB. And the Europeans loved him. I am sorry I didnāt get off my sorry butt and breed a mare to him :no:
[QUOTE=CBoylen;1869101]
Proper form is proper form, for a hunter or a jumper. The first horse is hanging its knees and jumping over its shoulder. It may be scopey and careful, but itās an ugly jumper.
Gem Twist is another good example of a jumper with good form:
http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/g_twist.htm[/QUOTE]
I freely admit that I am not an expert in either hunters or jumpers, but Iām not sure I can agree 100% with your comment. For hunters, form is almost everything. For jumpers, form means nothing if they canāt clear the fences in the fastest time.
Besides, I have heard some of the European jumper breeders just shrug off concerns about a horse that doesnāt jerk its knees way up. They donāt seem to think it as important as big scope, a big kick over the fences, and a big heart to tackle the daunting combinations found on international GP courses.
While it is true that good hunters and jumpers do share many traits, they are really apples and oranges. Could Condios win a big hunter classic? Could Rox Dene win a big GP?
And the standard that all are held to -
CBoylen is correct - proper form IS proper form, whether the horse is a hunter or a jumper. The difference is that a jumper with bad form can still win if it is scopey and careful (and fast) enough. A hunter cannot.
Edited to add: I have heard that the photo posted above was altered in some way.
holy crap - who is That?
Cor de la Bryere
The photo was altered??? This stallion was the standard and has highly used in Holstein as he passed on his bascule to his offspring.
And the Corde son, Caletto I -
[QUOTE=nhwr;1869112]
Sorry but this is just wrong. Florestan and Sandro Hit have TB prominently in their sire lines (great grandsires, I am thinking, making them at least 1/8 TB in their immediate pedigree). Donnerhallās damline has TB the 3rd generation back and his his sire had Marcio xx upclose as well as being line bred to Der Loewe. Rubensteinās dam was 1/2 TB. And Flemmingh is actually 7/16 TB (that is almost 50%) in his first 4 generations [/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps we have different criteria. I do not consider a horse that is 1/8th Tb or 1/8 Anything to be a significant influence. And to get into the 16ths is just ridiculous.
Donnerhall is 1/8 Tb.
Florestan is 1/4 Tb.
Sandro Hit is 1/8th.
Rubinstein is 1/4.
Flemmingh is 1/8th through Ladykiller.
And Weltmeyer does not have any Tb at all.
(I picked these stallions because they are the most predominant sires of the 5 and 6 year old World Champions that were just announced.)
It is all right here in my German Sires books and the Dutch Stallion books. They make it easy because all the Tbās are in Red Type
At any rate, the only reason I posted was because of that myth of āheavy successive generationsā. Not to quibble over Tb blood saturation percentages in the Modern Warmblood.
I have no idea if itās true, but I did read that somewhere. I think it was here on this forum.
You are not incorrect but what you describe is not necessarily a good thing (case in point is tomās example of tight lower legs totally ignores that this attribute could be attached to a horse with a quite dangerous front end). Form is there for a Very Good Reason, and in this case it is generally to improve the odds of survival for the rider. Thus we should always preserve the idea that function should follow form, and this is what CBoylen is talking about.
Ideally the horses with the best form should be the best horses. Jet Run defined it back in the day and currently Arko III oozes this concept. But we all know when it comes to āidealsā some horses clearly did NOT get the memo. One only had to watch Rodrigo ride Tomboy to realize not only did Tomboy not get the memo but he stomped it to death and put it in the muck heap. Baloubet de Rouet probably put the memo on a solid obstacle and threw a rider headfirst into it then jumped the whole affair just out of spite.
I know in some USDF breed classes I have seen some beee-yutiful walks and trots on a weanling I know was going to be a disaster to ride, his neck set was so incorrect.
If you really want to see function plus lack of memo, go check out a picture of the great TB filly Moccasin. :eek: And yes, she was co-champion horse of the year back during the day of the much vaunted, greatly over-hyped āold styleā TB. She mocks the experts with her form. Thank god her son Apalachee didnāt get what she had in the looks department (but that didnāt mean he didnāt pass it on, with considerably less talent, because that is the risk associated with function that does not follow form).
And I am equally confident that somewhere in the dressage world, some poorly āformedā horse that didnāt get the memo is exceeding every expectation ever set for it. Might even be that godawful stovepipe necked baby I saw at a USDF showā¦
The point is, form should follow function but as long as the sport is objectively scored, some individuals will always exceed expectations. Historically some have done it in a spectacular way (Touch of Class leaps to mind). But most followers of Tesio recognize that these individuals are outliers if your breeding program designed to improve your odds of success, because the one thing you can count on the outliers is tha tthey will pass on their form (such as it is) without passing on the ability to exceed their form.
Stroll through that showjumping hall of fame.
Note horses who showed both in the hunters and grand prix jumpers.
Idle Dice
Since most European registries consider 5 generations of pedigree to be the relevent standard, I was trying to be conservative by staying within 4 generations, for the most part. But Centerline Farm, even by using your own standards (excluding less than 1/4 in the immediate pedigree as meaningless) your analysis is flawed. 5 and 6 year old horses are not yet GP material in any discipline. Isnāt that what we were talking about here?
Weltmeyer is a particularly interesting specimen. He is definitely an old type stallion. You are right he has no TB in his closest pedigree. And after being billed as the āstallion of the centuryā and having been bred to literally thousands of mares, he has a fairly disappointing record in terms of the performance of his offspring at high levels of sport, with a very few notable exceptions (like Weltall whose dam has a lot of TB blood). Does that support your argument? Not in my book
[QUOTE=nhwr;1869295]
Since most European registries consider 5 generations of pedigree to be the relevent standard, I was trying to be conservative by staying within 4 generations, for the most part. But Centerline Farm, even by using your own standards (excluding less than 1/4 in the immediate pedigree as meaningless) your analysis is flawed. 5 and 6 year old horses are not yet GP material in any discipline. Isnāt that what we were talking about here?
Weltmeyer is a particularly interesting specimen. He is definitely an old type stallion. You are right he has no TB in his closest pedigree. And after being billed as the āstallion of the centuryā and having been bred to literally thousands of mares, he has a fairly disappointing record in terms of the performance of his offspring at high levels of sport, with a very few notable exceptions (like Weltall whose dam has a lot of TB blood). Does that support your argument? Not in my book ;)[/QUOTE]
Actually nhwr I wasnāt talking about bloodlines or GP horses or even TB saturation.
So to recap I am responding to refinement arguments, not athletics.
I was actually talking about the āheavy horseā myth.
I am not at all interested in debating Tb merits/shortcomings.
I only mentioned these stallions since I donāt consider any of them heavy (with the possible exception of Weltmeyer) and some of them are considered refining, and they are the most popularly used stallions today - but they are not at all predominantly Tb by any stretch of imagination ā¦ or wishful thinkingā¦:lol:
[QUOTE=cherham;1866991]
To answer a question posted about two pages ago Popeke K was foaled in Canada and registered and approved for breeding with both the Canadian Sport Horse Association and the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association. Both of these organizations are full members of the WBFSH.
The owners of the stallion had no desire to register with a European registry (including a North American counterpart) and so chose to retain his Canadian citizenship by registering and approving Popeye with the two Canadian sport horse breeding associations instead.
I might also add that one of the breeders and past owners of Popeke K is the National President of the Canadian Sport Horse Association.[/QUOTE]
I was confused by the information contained in this post, since I know for sure that Popeye showed against A Fine Romance in the Sport Horse Stallion classes at the Royal Winter Fair, the first of which was for CSHA F0 or Foundation Stallions - those registered with another registry and inspected and approved by the CSHA. Thank you for the clarification mirrabrook.
There is a lot of interesting discussion here, and I understand that much of it concerns the rules and regulations of the KWPN and KWPN NA. Which is fair.
However, it does disturb me to see a fine horse criticised so freely, especially when much of the criticism is based on a few tiny pictures. No one horse is perfect for all mares, or all disciplines, and no one horse is āthe bestā in everyoneās eyes.
He is a beautiful horse and his owners should be justifiably proud of his accomplishments. Congratulations to all of his connections and best of luck with him.
Whether he is approved by the KWPN or not will have little effect I imagine on the popularity of the horse with mare owners. Registry approval is not the measure of a stallion: his prepotency, his ability to improve upon his mares and most importantly, the performance of his offspring, is.
Fairview - thank you for posting the pics of Idle Dice.
What a great horse he was.
Good post DMK. It would be great if someone could post a pic of Jet Run
and SJ66, thanks for the pic of Corde. There is talk that that pic is ādoctoredā. I have no idea, but his influence is undeniable, as is that of Ladykiller. Any pics of him jumping?
Not of Ladykiller, but here is Landgraf I -
hmmmmm Rubenstein sure and Sandro Hit maybe
So to recap I am responding to refinement arguments
Sandro Hit is too young (he is maybe 11 or 12) yet to say.
You are saying that Florestan, Donnerhall, Flemmingh and Weltmeyer are refiners? Not really, in the offspring I have seen. My experience is that Flemmingh is a sometime refiner and the others are not, definately not.
But this thread is about whether a hunter can perform well enough to be included in a European studbook. Even though I am primarily interested in dressage, I say a hunter can perform and TB blood is not a hinderance, IMO This is backed up by bloodline analysis and performance statistics :yes:
Unless you have personally seen a stallion go (in this case Popeye K), you have no right to judge what he could or could not do, nor what he should or should not be approved for. I have seen Popeye go - numerous time actually (and I have never seen him on a lunge line. Heck I donāt think he would need lunging if he hadnāt been out for weeks - heās just that naturally laid back.) - and I think he happens to be one of the most athletic stallions I have seen. Why is he not a GP jumper by now? Because his owner doesnāt want him to be. And THAT is actually the bottom line.
Why is there no hunter book in the Netherlands? How many times does it have to be said that since there is not a hunter market in the Netherlands it would be rather pointless to have a hunter book there wouldnāt it? Yes, they are selling boatloads of horses to the US as hunters. But I believe that is more because American trainers/dealers/whatever are able to go to Europe and look at a ton of horses in a few days and pay reasonable prices for them. I have no doubt that quite a few of the horses imported to be sold for big $$ as hunters could just as easily stay and make it to the big jumper ranks. But guess what? People in the US are willing to pay the money for the hunters and the breeders are smart enough to take their money. Itās called businessā¦
Oh, and whomever it was saying that horses donāt revert to old blood needs to come have a look at my trainerās horseā¦ He is a dead ringer for his great-great grandsire - looks nothing like either parent.
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