Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868461]
Yes, and the European studbooks are always encouraging breeders to use TB sires. But many breeders are short-term focused and are not willing to take the risk of producing an F1 colt or even if it is a filly having to wait several years to produce a foal from her (assuming that she is good for breeding).

DownYonder understands well these issues.[/QUOTE]

She understands well because she agrees with you.

However, I do agree with many of your points too.
It is your sweeping statements that are killing you.

Have you owned many TBs Tom? Good ones? Tell me they cant jump. Of course they dont have the big expressive movement. Not everyone likes or wants that you know. And there you are. We have gone full circle back to hunters.

[mazu]

Really I think there’s a lot of insult being read into the term “residual” that just isn’t there. It’s merely a type of horse that doesn’t meet the breeder’s intended goals. The term doesn’t say anything about the talent or worth of the horse–just that it wasn’t planned to end up doing whatever it does, be it hunters or eventing or trail riding. Obviously the horse could still be very talented and competitive, it’s just not doing exactly what its breeder had had in mind with that particular cross. A horse bred for the hunter ring who ends up showing no talent for that discipline, but does well as a jumper, would too be a residual. And a hunter breeder would probably be disappointed with this outcome. Why the defensiveness?

Again, the fact that successful hunters have such a defined type and way of going says to me that bringing a hunter focus into a warmblood registry could definitely impact the gene pool as a whole.

[DMK]

@tom;1868612

DMK,

Do hunters wear guards to protect their chests from the studs put in their shoes?

Are these guards full of nicks and gouges? That’s my definition of proper technique in the front – snapping those legs up.

How many jumpers require them at 4’0? This is comparing apples and oranges at the two different heights plus the pace PLUS the hunter gap. I daresay if you rode a potential jumper up to a 4’0 fence on a hunter stride and he expressed his front end as you described, one might think him topped out in his scope.

The approach, packaging and type of jump creates the style of the jump. But just for $hits and grins, I actually saw a picture of my hunter… jumping a 3’0 vertical of all things where yes, he did look in dire need of a belly guard. Fortunately I do know he wasn’t scoped out, but it was a real rolleyes moment. Such drama over such a little fence. :rolleyes:

And we all know that some of those belly gouging jumpers may be as tight as a tick with their lower leg, but are dangerously inadequate with their shoulder and forearm, which is a far greater sin in my eyes (talk about not getting the landing gear up) - the deeper the distance the more dangerous this horse is. So I’m not sure the belly guard is the defining piece of tack for determining a good front end or at least not in my version of Webster’s…

[showjumpers66]

As long as it can be proven that the stallion has plenty of scope with the style and technique of hunter, than no worries! But, I think it would put minds at ease if the hunter stallions were required to prove it. A stallion can still have the style and technique of a hunter and yet be successful in the jumper ring, too. Maybe we should list the stallions who were successful as hunters before moving to the Grand Prix ring. Why has Voltaire been so successful as a hunter sire? Watch his video and you can easily see the qualities that make a good hunter there even in the Grand Prix ring. But, Voltaire is the whole package. We need to find stallions who are the whole package for hunter sires.

We are about to jump into this feet first with Vallado. If we go the Young Jumper route with him, then we break his Green and make him ineligible for the anything but the Working Hunters as he is a stallion and can’t be ridden by a Junior and we don’t have an Amateur rider for him.

So, we go the route that Popeye K went - stallion testing, then working through Green Hunters to Working Hunters. Although, our ultimate plan is to move him up to the jumpers after proving his success in the hunters.

[LLDM]

Wow - DMK vs Tom - I ought to sell tickets!

Although you both have valid (IMHO) points, I’m calling the match for DMK - as her style is so much more polished and less offensive (always helpful in making one’s point).

But, really, is there an answer to this? Of the things that make a spectacular hunter, jumper, dressage horse or eventer - it is so much more than physical attributes or even style. So much is mental, is it not?

For example, I think TBs are less popular now as top hunters because many don’t do well standing in 10x10 stalls 5 or 6 days a week, weeks on end - which is the reality of today’s show curcuit. Probably hurts them in the jumpers too, but not as much (since they don’t need to look “soft” in the ring to win).

Heck, they have to have the right raising, the right training, the right trainer (not all trainers work for all horses - no matter how good they are). The must have the right management, the right maintainence, and most of all the right luck to make it big time - to even have a shot at it.

It’s all a tough bunch of things to bet the gene pool on. :yes: :winkgrin:

I do think these discussions are worth having though. And are entertaining as well.

SCFarm

[Centerline_Farm]

Some people have mentioned that the TB needs to be bred into the Warmbloods because they get heavier after successive generations.

I disagree with that statement and would be most interested in seeing proof of this. I have several imported mares that have not had any TB within the last 5 generations and they are extremely refined. I have also bred them to stallions that have not had any TB in them in the last 5 generations and the resulting foals are lovely. Substantial, yet refined - if you know what I mean.

Further, there is no genetic reason for this to happen.

I think that is merely a wives tale.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Nicolette, I totally agree. Would love to see this as a separate thread.

[Tap2Tango]

[QUOTE=fish;1867153]
. …Unfortunately, many of the best lines (e.g. Bon Nuit and Good Twist) have died out …[/QUOTE]

Just wanted to clarify this…
The Good twist line has def. not died out. The group of twist horses that competed 5+ years ago now have offspring that are anywhere from 1-4 years old. Probably why people think the line has died out, there aren’t many showing right now that still have “twist” in the name. They are out there though, I assure you! Give it about 4 more years and the babies will be grown up. There are several that are 6 years and up that are doing very well in the ring.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=fish;1868470]
When did I become “a writer”?
And I repeat, if “almost all TB stallions active today…”, why is the Holsteiner Verband continuing to stand them and approve them, not to mention prominently featuring one on its website (as of about 4 months ago)?[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I had a senior moment and confused you with Tri…

Are you suggesting that the Holsteiner Verband is approving TB stallions because they are superior in movement or jumping ability to WB stallions?

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=nhwr;1868507]
Prince Thatch died only recently, what 3 years ago? I’d say his blood is still definitely active, though he has more reknown as a broodmare sire.
Mytens is a jumping sire and is still alive. How about Coconut Grove?

I’d disagree with Chris’ point that they are used primarily as refiners, as well. Prince Thatch certainly wasn’t a reliable refiner! They are often used to improve gaits, specifically canters, which is important in all disciplines. This is certainly the case for Lauries Crusader. My experience with breeders in Europe is that their opinions are similar to many American breeders. They either view TB as a necessary, but not always desirable influence, or they absolutely love them. It is often harder to see TB influence quickly because they don’t come into the registries through the regular stallion selection process. TBs don’t get the breeding hype or “buzz” from their ranking in stallion testing and because they are older when they enter the studbooks, their breeding careers are shorter, so they have fewer offspring in the books. But their impact is felt. If you think this isn’t true, ask a german dressage breeder if they wish there was more Angelo blood around.

But with TB blood, whether the past or present, one legitimate concern is the lack of genetic variability in the bloodlines. Since the registries have been closed for so long and the original stallion population was so small, every horse born in the last 75 years or longer is so closely related, it hardly matters whether they current or past contributors to the gene pool. You can see this if you compare photos of horse like Abendfrieden, Cardinal, Cottage Son or Marlon to the TB of today, they look pretty similar to TBs in type.[/QUOTE]

Prince Thatch’s BLOOD may still be active, but HE isn’t - which is what Tom’s statement was all about. You are right that, in the past, TB’s often did improve canters - but as Tom pointed out, not too many of the new style TBs do.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Centerline Farm;1868794]
Some people have mentioned that the TB needs to be bred into the Warmbloods because they get heavier after successive generations.

I disagree with that statement and would be most interested in seeing proof of this. I have several imported mares that have not had any TB within the last 5 generations and they are extremely refined. I have also bred them to stallions that have not had any TB in them in the last 5 generations and the resulting foals are lovely. Substantial, yet refined - if you know what I mean.

Further, there is no genetic reason for this to happen.

I think that is merely a wives tale.[/QUOTE]

I would hardly categorize it as a wive’s tale when the breeding directors of several major German registries have stated it.

And, as has been said many times before - most German and Dutch breeders understand the importance of bringing in refining blood via TB and/or Anglo-Arab blood (although very little of the latter in recent years), but no one really wants to be the one to do it. Europeans breeders regard the F1 as a step in the process - not the end result. Many, many F1 crosses are failures (rejects, residuals - whatever) in their eyes, but occasionally there is one that proves of value in the gene pool. The problem is that most European breeders, just like most American breeders, need to sell their young stock to make room for new foal crops, and it often takes years to recognize the value of an F1 cross. Sometimes that good F1 cross has already been sold across the ocean as a hunter prospect.

[Centerline_Farm]

I would hardly categorize it as a wive’s tale when the breeding directors of several major German registries have stated it.

Commonly held beliefs are often untrue.

There is absolutely no reason genetically for this to happen. And we have ample proof that it does not.

I think this ‘superstition’ was based upon the problem in the 40’s or 50’s when all the Warmbloods were much heavier than today and the only refinement blood there was existed in Tb’s. However, nowadays the Modern Warmblood is extremely refined and infusion with Tb’s for this purpose is no longer needed.

This is very obvious in modern stallion’s breeding, especially Dressage breeding. All the top breeding/producing stallions today - Florestan, Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Sandro Hit, Flemmingh, etc., etc have very little Tb in them, and none close up at all.

This is not a comment upon the merits or liabilities of infusing Tb blood.
It is merely an observation of an incorrect myth being bandied about as fact.

[tom]

Genotype versus phenotype.

The modern warmblood sire and mare may look like a “blood” horse but he may not be at all.

If you look at the recent crops of KWPN stallions, for example, many/most are very blood-like in type and appearance. But do they possess genetically the attributes that are looked for in TB sires? Refining is only one desired attribute. Others are quick reflexes and stamina.

Horses that are being bred to produce a particular “blood-like” type (such as in the KWPN) will look more and more like “blood” horses but will ride less and less like “blood” horses unless the right kind of TB blood is periodically infused into the gene pool.

A silly analogy: go to the airport and randomly pick out 12 men that fit the physical profile of NBA players: very tall and carrying weight appropriate for their height and build. How many of them would be truly athletic? They “look” like ball players, so why aren’t they? Looks can be deceiving in people…and in horses.

[Spoilsport]

@tom;1868612

DMK,

Do hunters wear guards to protect their chests from the studs put in their shoes?

Are these guards full of nicks and gouges? That’s my definition of proper technique in the front – snapping those legs up.

I’m not sure what you mean, so I’ll just ask.

Is this (from your website) what you consider the proper technique?

Ranked # 297

I prefer this:

Rox Dene

Or this famous former TB jumper:

Touch of Class

[Tiki]

In this country at least, the classic TB horse has been destroyed by the great god Money. The modern TB in America is no longer the classic disttance horse. The TB breeders and trainers are more interested in the quick buck and have bred for short, explosive speed and quick money with the early runner. The modern TB in this country is built downhill, with a butt like a working QH, a neck that comes up out of the chest instead of rising up from the wither. I will never, ever, for the life of me understand why TB breeders are ruining the TB. If they want sprinters, why don’t they buy QH’s instead of trying to turn the TB into a QH type and ruining the breed. These modern American TBs will NEVER make good sporthorses.

[Tiki]

Spoilsport - with legs hanging everywhere??? You prefer them???

[CBoylen]

Proper form is proper form, for a hunter or a jumper. The first horse is hanging its knees and jumping over its shoulder. It may be scopey and careful, but it’s an ugly jumper.
Gem Twist is another good example of a jumper with good form:
http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/g_twist.htm

[nhwr]

Prince Thatch’s BLOOD may still be active, but HE isn’t - which is what Tom’s statement was all about. You are right that, in the past, TB’s often did improve canters - but as Tom pointed out, not too many of the new style TBs do.
I’d say that since Prince Thatch, like most TB sires, didn’t enter the studbook as a 3 year old and only breeders who are willing to take a bit of a gamble bred to him initially, it reasonable to assert that we don’t yet understand the full extent of Prince Thatch’s (or other contemporaneous TBs) real influence. I’d like to add the most hu-mongo horse I have ever ridden was an 18.2 hd Hannoverian gelding with a 2die4:eek: canter and a walk with a 24" overtrack by Prince Thatch. He was fabulous but beefier than most drafts. I have never seen a mature Prince Thatch offspring (and I have seen a lot of them) that I would call refined.

All the top breeding/producing stallions today - Florestan, Donnerhall, Rubinstein, Sandro Hit, Flemmingh, etc., etc have very little Tb in them, and none close up at all.
Sorry but this is just wrong. Florestan and Sandro Hit have TB prominently in their sire lines (great grandsires, I am thinking, making them at least 1/8 TB in their immediate pedigree). Donnerhall’s damline has TB the 3rd generation back and his his sire had Marcio xx upclose as well as being line bred to Der Loewe. Rubenstein’s dam was 1/2 TB. And Flemmingh is actually 7/16 TB (that is almost 50%) in his first 4 generations :yes:

A silly analogy: go to the airport and randomly pick out 12 men that fit the physical profile of NBA players: very tall and carrying weight appropriate for their height and build. How many of them would expect to be truly athletic? They “look” like ball players, so why aren’t they? Looks can be deceiving in people…and in horses.
tom, you ask some of the funniest questions The answer is because humans don’t engage in managed (and enforced) breeding and training practices for themselves But they do with their horses :lol:

[Riva]

wow…there is a statement. Yes, many TB breeders who are breeding only for racing breed the wrong traits. I did hear a breeder on tv say they only breed for three things - “speed, speed and speed” which is definitely a horrible way to breed (i.e. how about feet? temperament, etc…)

However, I would say that there are still a large number of TB breeders out there who care about what they breed. I have a 5 year old TB that is absolutely awesome. He is built like a brick sh*thouse and has the speed that he probably could’ve made it as a racehorse if he had been sold early enough. He is going to make an unbelieveable sporthorse in any discipline.

Also, yes I think some WBs still need an infusion of TB. Aside from the refinement many of the older-type WB stallions need, brains are added. (ok…the brains part MAY be opinion, but I am a TB person first and think TBs are much smarter than most WBs and that is just my opinion.)

I love the American TB and will always do so. I think they are way underrated and should be utilized more.

Not to mention, there are some lovely TB stallions currently standing that are doing wonderful things for the Sporthorse industry - i.e. Innkeeper, Coconut Grove, A Fine Romance and Salute the Truth.

[Spoilsport]

Double post. Sorry.