Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[nhwr]

snort

It will require the infusion of too much TB blood, and almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.

tom,

The more you post, the sillier you get. Tb blood is highly prized in many warmblood breeding programs.

Ladykiller xx
Cottage Son xx
Furioso xx
Show me a KWPN or Holsteiner jumping pedigree of note that doesn’t include a lot of the above listed blood.

Cardinal xx gait improver and jumper sire
Prince Thatch xx gait improver
Lauries Crusader xx gait improver
Der Löwe xx jumper sire
Mytens xx jumper sire
Abendfriedenxx sire of
Pik As xx gait improver and jumper sire
and Perser xx gait improver
Angelo xx gait improver

I am most familiar with german thoroughbred lines, but I know the Dutch love them too

Breeding a good hunter to a good hunter is just like breeding a good jumper to a good jumper or a good dressage horse to a good dressage horse. You get what comes out. The exceptional horses are the exception in any breeding program or in any discipline. That is why all breeding is essentially experimental.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Spoilsport;1868359]
Wasn’t Rox Dene bred to Popeye? I think it was fairly recently, so too soon to tell how sucessful the foals will be.

I am not a breeder and don’t mean to give the impression I know about all the factors that go into breeding. Maybe it is too tricky to breed a top hunter. I simply disagree with Tom’s suggestions that the hunters are the residuals. My opinion is based on working with horses two and older, not on breeding.[/QUOTE]

If hunters aren’t the residuals from Dutch and German breeding programs, then why are so many Dutch and German horses ending up in the hunter ring in N.A.? I think we can all agree that very, very, VERY few of those horses was intentionally bred to become a hunter.

As has been said, the Dutch and German breeders breed for top international quality showjumpers and dressage horses - not hunters. Yet hunter trainers are flocking in droves to northern Europe to scoop up the horses that don’t have what it takes to be a top showjumper or dressage horse, but that do have desirable qualities for the U.S. hunter ring. Some folks may not like the term “residuals”, but what else would you call these horses? You certainly don’t want to see them referred to as “rejects,” do you? (And I say that very facetiously - I don’t consider them rejects, but their European breeders might.)

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=nhwr;1868380]
tom,

The more you post, the sillier you get. Tb blood is highly prized in many warmblood breeding programs.

Ladykiller xx
Cottage Son xx
Furioso xx
Show me a KWPN or Holsteiner jumping pedigree of note that doesn’t include a lot of the above listed blood.

Cardinal xx gait improver and jumper sire
Prince Thatch xx gait improver
Lauries Crusader xx gait improver
Der Löwe xx jumper sire
Mytens xx jumper sire
Abendfriedenxx sire of
Pik As xx gait improver and jumper sire
and Perser xx gait improver
Angelo xx gait improver

I am most familiar with german thoroughbred lines, but I know the Dutch love them too

Breeding a good hunter to a good hunter is just like breeding a good jumper to a good jumper or a good dressage horse to a good dressage horse. You get what comes out. The exceptional horses are the exception in any breeding program or in any discipline. That is why all breeding is essentially experimental.[/QUOTE]

Helen, most of the stallions you mentioned are no longer breeding. Re-read Tom’s comment -
“… almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.”

I think most of the European registries use TB stallions these days primarily to lighten and refine, NOT to bring in big gaits or a big jump. Sure, there might be one or two TB stallions out there that can jump like gang-busters, or that have super gaits (one of the by-products of using Prince Thatch was that he often improved the walk), but the majority are not going to do a better job of improving or keeping movement and/or jumping ability than one of the thousands of WB stallions in the studbooks.

The German breeders I have talked to use TB stallions with a bit of trepidation - they understand that they may lose some movement or jumping ability, but sometimes they need to go to a TB because they have a mareline that just gets heavier and heavier each generation. They always regard the TB stallions as improvers of type, NOT as improvers of gaits or jumping ability.

[fish]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;1868428]
Helen, most of the stallions you mentioned are no longer breeding. Re-read Tom’s comment -
“… almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.”[/QUOTE]

Funny, last time I looked at the Holsteiner Verband website, it prominently featured a lovely grey TB jumper recently approved for breeding… shown in spectacular form over fences, of course.

I must be on your ignore list, because you certainly did not respond to my comments on the “residuals” insult.

Perhaps we should be noting that the WB registries have made quite a bit of use of “residuals” from racing, carriage horse and other stock. Seems to me that intelligent horsepeople take good horses for their purposes wherever they can find them, with prejudices being pretty counterproductive.

[tom]

nhwr,

Stop and read. I said:

“It will require the infusion of too much TB blood, and almost all TB sires ACTIVE TODAY destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.” (emphasis added)

What stallions are your list other than Lauries Crusader are active today?

Now please name TB sires ACTIVE TODAY that are contributing jumping and/or movement. You can find several TB sires other than Lauries Crusader that MAY contribute some movement but please do point me in the direction of those that contribute to the jump.

fish,

Prince Thatch has been dead for several years.

Every studbook and serious breeder in Europe is searching long and hard for a TB stallion that will contribute to the jump and/or movement…or at least destroy not too much of the jump or movement as it adds other desired qualities. This is why the F1 cross, if it is a colt, has no market value in Europe ex-Ireland and ex-UK unless it is a stallion prospect. (Ireland and the UK, of course, have big eventing markets so F1 crosses are valued either as colts or fillies.)

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=fish;1868445]
Funny, last time I looked at the Holsteiner Verband website, it prominently featured a lovely grey TB jumper recently approved for breeding… shown in spectacular form over fences, of course.

I must be on your ignore list, because you certainly did not respond to my comments on the “residuals” insult.

Perhaps we should be noting that the WB registries have made quite a bit of use of “residuals” from racing, carriage horse and other stock. Seems to me that intelligent horsepeople take good horses for their purposes wherever they can find them, with prejudices being pretty counterproductive.[/QUOTE]

Again - read what Tom posted, and what I re-posted.

“ALMOST all TB stallions active today…”

Come on now, you are a writer - you should be able to read for comprehension better than that.

And I don’t have anyone on my ignore list (although God knows, I have been tempted at times…):lol:

[tom]

Yes, and the European studbooks are always encouraging breeders to use TB sires. But many breeders are short-term focused and are not willing to take the risk of producing an F1 colt or even if it is a filly having to wait several years to produce a foal from her (assuming that she is good for breeding).

DownYonder understands well these issues.

[fish]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;1868451]
Again - read what Tom posted, and what I re-posted.

“ALMOST all TB stallions active today…”

Come on now, you are a writer - you should be able to read for comprehension better than that.

And I don’t have anyone on my ignore list (although God knows, I have been tempted at times…):lol:[/QUOTE]

When did I become “a writer”?
And I repeat, if “almost all TB stallions active today…”, why is the Holsteiner Verband continuing to stand them and approve them, not to mention prominently featuring one on its website (as of about 4 months ago)?

[tom]

Read post 165 and learn"

“Every studbook and serious breeder in Europe is searching long and hard for a TB stallion that will contribute to the jump and/or movement…or at least destroy not too much of the jump or movement as it adds other desired qualities.”

[fish]

[QUOTE=tom;1868477]
Read post 165 and learn"

“Every studbook and serious breeder in Europe is searching long and hard for a TB stallion that will contribute to the jump and/or movement…or at least destroy not too much of the jump or movement as it adds other desired qualities.”[/QUOTE]

And if TB stallions are not there to be found, why are those breeders looking so hard-- specifically among TB’s-- to find ones that “will contribute to the jump and/or movement” in addition to providing “other desired qualities”? Why do they continue searching among TB’s rather than other breeds for improvement stock, not to mention pursuing the obvious alternative of staying within their own books? As anyone who’s shopped at the racetracks and/or TB sales for show horse prospects knows, it’s always been whole lot more difficult to find the right type among animals bred for racing than it is among horses produced by breeding programs which have done the selecting for you. The Europeans continue to do the hard work involved in finding the right TB’s to continue improving their show horse stock-- and IMO, that’s one of the many reasons their programs continue to be so difficult to compete against.

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;1868420]
If hunters aren’t the residuals from Dutch and German breeding programs, then why are so many Dutch and German horses ending up in the hunter ring in N.A.? I think we can all agree that very, very, VERY few of those horses was intentionally bred to become a hunter.

As has been said, the Dutch and German breeders breed for top international quality showjumpers and dressage horses - not hunters. Yet hunter trainers are flocking in droves to northern Europe to scoop up the horses that don’t have what it takes to be a top showjumper or dressage horse, but that do have desirable qualities for the U.S. hunter ring. Some folks may not like the term “residuals”, but what else would you call these horses? You certainly don’t want to see them referred to as “rejects,” do you? (And I say that very facetiously - I don’t consider them rejects, but their European breeders might.)[/QUOTE]

Indeed, if the Dutch and German breeders are trying to produce top international quality showjumpers and dressage horses, why are they in fact producing top quality show hunters? What is going wrong with their breeding programs that is causing hunter trainers to flock in droves to Europe to scoop up their horses?

Perhaps some of you are asking the wrong questions.

[nhwr]

Prince Thatch died only recently, what 3 years ago? I’d say his blood is still definitely active, though he has more reknown as a broodmare sire.
Mytens is a jumping sire and is still alive. How about Coconut Grove?

I’d disagree with Chris’ point that they are used primarily as refiners, as well. Prince Thatch certainly wasn’t a reliable refiner! They are often used to improve gaits, specifically canters, which is important in all disciplines. This is certainly the case for Lauries Crusader. My experience with breeders in Europe is that their opinions are similar to many American breeders. They either view TB as a necessary, but not always desirable influence, or they absolutely love them. It is often harder to see TB influence quickly because they don’t come into the registries through the regular stallion selection process. TBs don’t get the breeding hype or “buzz” from their ranking in stallion testing and because they are older when they enter the studbooks, their breeding careers are shorter, so they have fewer offspring in the books. But their impact is felt. If you think this isn’t true, ask a german dressage breeder if they wish there was more Angelo blood around.

But with TB blood, whether the past or present, one legitimate concern is the lack of genetic variability in the bloodlines. Since the registries have been closed for so long and the original stallion population was so small, every horse born in the last 75 years or longer is so closely related, it hardly matters whether they current or past contributors to the gene pool. You can see this if you compare photos of horse like Abendfrieden, Cardinal, Cottage Son or Marlon to the TB of today, they look pretty similar to TBs in type.

[Tiki]

If you read some of the other breeding posts, you will see that some of the TB stallions recently approved by European WB societies have ‘qualifications’ on them in breeder’s eyes. You will see people asking about the TB stallion ‘X’ or ‘Y’ or ‘Z’ who was grabbed and inducted into Registry ‘X’, ‘Y’ or ‘Z’, and how they will cross with mares and what they will produce. The answer, generally, is that you CAN get a really outstanding foal, but your mare absolutely better be a really good mover, really correct and athletic in her jump, have really good legs, or whatever, and that if those criteria are met with the mare, TB stallion ‘X’ or ‘Y’ or ‘Z’ will refine the mare and add ‘zip’ to her without taking anything away. Rarely do you hear that these stallions will improve the mare.

AND, just because the hunter market in the US might be the biggest and the most lucrative does NOT mean that that is what all breeders in the US are breeding for. I, for one, am not. I have had a foal or 2 that turned out to look and move like a hunter and I have no idea what to do with them. I am NOT involved in hunters, have no contacts for hunters and am not really looking for any contacts with hunters. Each to his/her own taste. If any or all of the registries go through with hunter books, I’ll probably never even look at them. There’s nothing wrong with hunters, I just have no interest in them, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

As far as crossing good jumpers and good dressage horses goes, a good jumper can add a good engine to a good dressage horse that’s a little weak in the hind end. A good dressage horse can add a bit of rideability and elasticity to a good jumper that’s missing a bit in that department. I can’t see any advantage to adding back hunter type to either. Hunters are hunters. It does not seem to be heritable like movement and jump.

[nhwr]

AND, just because the hunter market in the US might be the biggest and the most lucrative does NOT mean that that is what all breeders in the US are breeding for. I, for one, am not. I have had a foal or 2 that turned out to look and move like a hunter and I have no idea what to do with them. I am NOT involved in hunters, have no contacts for hunters and am not really looking for any contacts with hunters. Each to his/her own taste. If any or all of the registries go through with hunter books, I’ll probably never even look at them. There’s nothing wrong with hunters, I just have no interest in them, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I am pretty much in the same boat. But I don’t object to adding hunters into our studs books because I think it will open up channels within the registries to help breeders like me who may produce the occassional hunter.

As far as crossing good jumpers and good dressage horses goes, a good jumper can add a good engine to a good dressage horse that’s a little weak in the hind end. A good dressage horse can add a bit of rideability and elasticity to a good jumper that’s missing a bit in that department. I can’t see any advantage to adding back hunter type to either. Hunters are hunters. It does not seem to be heritable like movement and jump.

Actually jumping style is the one of the most heritable traits in horse breeding. It can be reproduced much more reliably than movement. I have read a couple of studies on this. I will try to post them later. Gotta go to a show now.

Thanks for the interesting discussion

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Improvement in the canter is a huge reason the Europeans add TB blood. Last I heard, canter was a gait. :winkgrin: And I believe THE most important one.

[tom]

Mytens died a year ago.

We know nothing about the ability of Coconut Grove to pass on jumping ability. Hopefully he will.

Have you seen today’s TBs canter? TBs are not bred to canter; they are bred to gallop. In the old days many TB sires would improve the canter but today, no. Consider these statistics…

Data from the 2005 Holsteiner Verband breeding index:

Sire / Index score for canter / index score for loose-jumping

Amigo xx / 61 / 73
Barnaul xx / 62 / 79
Esteban xx / 77 / 76
Exorbitant xx / 87/ 80
Feenspross xx / 47 / 50
Heraldik xx / 98 / 82
Lauries Crusader xx / 108 / 57
Mytens xx / 92 / 91
Painter’s Row / 66 / 56
Parco xx / 79 / 69

These are all the TBs possessing index scores in the 2005 document.

Every single TB sire scored below the average in the free-jumping scores received by their progeny. All TB sires destroyed or damaged free-jumping ability. (The average is 100, so Lauries Crusader’s progeny are 100 - 57 = 43% below average.)

With respect to the canter, every single sire harmed the canter except Lauries Crusader. Heraldik essentially had no impact (98) and Mytens had a small detrimental effect (92) but the rest were canter destroyers.

A lot of opinions are being expresed in this thread with no basis in data or analysis.

[DMK]

@DownYonder;1868420

Yet hunter trainers are flocking in droves to northern Europe to scoop up the horses that don’t have what it takes to be a top showjumper or dressage horse, but that do have desirable qualities for the U.S. hunter ring.

Hunters from Europe? Absolutely. Jumpers and dressage horses just as much, maybe more.

Americans flock to Europe to buy horses of all disciplines at all levels - top, bottom and middle because they find that they can get what they want for a price the market will bear. If it were just hunters we were buying, I’m confident the market would have shifted to produce exactly that which we desire and there would be a huge shift in what is being bred by Europeans. Money talks quite loudly that way. But we “desire” (and buy) everything from superstars like Authentic and Brentina all the way down to some local 2’6 hunter or somebody’s glorified 2nd level schoolmaster.

tom, some pages ago you mentioned how hunters were not all that with their front ends. I’m afraid you betrayed your lack of knowledge of american hunters with that opening statement. In this part of the world, if a jumper gallops around a course with a world class front end and makes the jumps look easy, he is said to have “hunted the course”. Hunters are deadly serious about how athletic the front end of a horse is over a fence. It’s truly Job 1 and goes hand in hand with rideability. Now if you had said that excess reliance on breeding a hunter style horse would have compromised the back end style, somone familiar with the sport would most likely agreed with you. Back ends do not have to be nearly as athletic as one would prefer in a jumper, and frequently that difference between a front and back end style can determine which career path a young horse may follow.

But make no mistake, a talented 4’0 hunter is an extremely talented animal, and nobody should be taking that away from him or her (although “winning” is just a function of who you beat, so you need to evaluate the individual’s style rather than look at his ribbons). Now at the lower levels, of course these animals are not the most talented examples (or perhaps they are not being shown to their full potential). How is that different from all the horses slogging around at 3rd level or less in dressage or Level 6 jumpers or less? They are no more or less a “residual” of the breeding program than some hunter. Or in truth they are probably why that breeder can continue to aim for the stars try and produce aa longshot like Authentic, Brentina or Strapless.

The business only survives because of those “residuals”…

[tom]

DMK,

Do hunters wear guards to protect their chests from the studs put in their shoes?

Are these guards full of nicks and gouges? That’s my definition of proper technique in the front – snapping those legs up.

From what I’ve seen a horse can be a very successful hunter and have people ooh and aah over it on this board without its landing gear ever going up.

I am not taking away from hunters. And yes, the low-level jumpers and dressage horses are residuals also. If residuals are easy to ride they have some value; if not they are destined for French dinner tables.

If they are easy to ride, have correct conformation, can pass a vetting, and can make a terrific bascule over a low fence then it becomes a VALUABLE part of the residual – what I said pages ago!

But the questions are: Is it wise to have a breeding program to produce such a horse? Is is wise for a world-class studbook to promote the breeding of residuals? And if it is such a great idea why isn’t the KWPN doing it in the Netherlands?

Tom

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868324]
and almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.

…[/QUOTE]

What??? That made me laugh! Are you kidding??
I can name several that do very well to infuse athleticsm into their get.
And how many Warmblood registries have not used TBs to refine their colder clunkiness???

Tom, really now! You are starting to sound like a troll…

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868461]
Yes, and the European studbooks are always encouraging breeders to use TB sires. But many breeders are short-term focused and are not willing to take the risk of producing an F1 colt or even if it is a filly having to wait several years to produce a foal from her (assuming that she is good for breeding).

DownYonder understands well these issues.[/QUOTE]

She understands well because she agrees with you.

It is your sweeping statements that are killing you.

Have you owned many TBs Tom? Good ones? Tell me they cant jump. Of course they dont have the big expressive movement. Not everyone likes or wants that you know. And there you are. We have gone full circle back to hunters.