Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[tom]

Riggs, Please read my posts more carefully. I said that hunters form a valuable part of the residual. The vast majority of hunters are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses – why is this a controversial statement? And the vast majority of international showjumpers and dressage horses do not possess the skills needed to be hunters.

In the same vein, I’d argue that there is no top international eventing horse competing today that has the ability to compete successfully in international showjumping at a comparable level (3*, 4*, 5*). But likewise I know of no top international showjumper that could compete sucessfully at that level in eventing. A difference skill set and mental attitude is required.

I would not expect a typical international showjumper or dressage horse to put in a winning round in a hunter competition. And vice versa. But for a studbook whose stated strategic objective is to win the WBFSH rankings for international showjumping and international dressage where is the wisdom in purposefully breeding horses designed to jump no higher than what, 1.25 m., and to do so without the electricity, scope, and technique required for international showjumping (to limit the description to showjumping)?

The KWPN is conducting an experiment and is using US breeders and horses as their lab rats: Can you build a successful “hunter studbook” without totally screwing up the main studbook where showjumping and dressage horses go? The hunter market in the US is huge and the Netherlands is an exporting country. Why have they not created the hunter studbook in the Netherlands as well, thereby assisting their Dutch breeders in putting hunter prospects on the ground for export across the Atlantic?

The answer to me is crystal clear. The KWPN is experimenting in the US and will not risk damaging their own valuable gene pool, and the progress they have made over the last two or three decades, by promoting the breeding of sub-optimal traits.

You may not like me saying these things but this is the harsh reality.

llsc, I am not ging to comment on the particular stallion’s potential to compete as a showjumper.

All GPs are not the same. I am not talking about 1.30 - 1.35 m GP; I am talking about 4* and 5* 1.60 m. technical GP that mature stallions are expected to be successful at if they have any hope of being approved by the KWPN. Can a hunter stallion do it? Before he is approved for the RP section of the studbook he should have to prove it. In any case, it is an academic deiscussion because the KWPN simply cannot approve a 9-y-o hunter for the RP studbook if it has not shown successfully in international showjumping or dressage – unless the KWPN leaderhip has gone so far off the rails that they are willing to damage the RP studbook in the USA, with the knowledge that for all intents and purposes 99.9% of the traffic of breeding stock between the Netherlands and the USA goes in the direction favorable to the Dutch.

mazu and showjumpers66 – thank you. Voices of reason and analysis.

[nhwr]

tom,

I find your arguement to be a bit irrational. But I understand that it is developed as an outsider to the US hunter market.

One could use the same arguement about allowing a stallion whose primary talent is dressage to be entered into the same book as jumpers or allowing jumper blood to mix with dressage lines. I’ll cite as example the stallion Bolero, who couldn’t jump over a line in the dirt, yet his blood his prized in dressage horses. I am sure that there are a number of jumper sires wouldn’t be considered as gait improvers either. History has shown that the market adjusts to these issues just fine.

Reality check; any mating is an experiment. Some of the most influential sires (Cor de la Bryere, Furioso II, Ladykiller, Donnerhall, Rubenstein) started out as experiments that didn’t look very appealing on paper. There is a huge demand, in terms of number of horses and amount of money spent, for hunters in the US. It far ourstrips the demand for dressage horses or jumpers. It is silly to suggest that European breeders aren’t interested in this market. Many of them drool at the thought of having acess to it. But they don’t really understand it. You may see development of a hunter program as a “tail wagging the dog” experiment. But the reality is that if this isn’t addressed by registries, US breeeders who allign themselves with them will be denied breeding access to the most lucrative sport horse market in the country, maybe the world. Stallion owners won’t be hurt because people who breed hunters in the US don’t care much about papers. It is the registry-loyal mare owners who will be burned if this isn’t worked out.

You say “The KWPN is experimenting in the US and will not risk damaging their own valuable gene pool, and the progress they have made over the last two or three decades,” a gene pool that is strongly influenced by stallions thought to be “experimental” in their day. I say kudos to the KWPN for helping breeders by providing a structure to respond to the demands of the US market.

[tom]

“Some days you’re a Louisville Slugger. Some days you’re the ball.”

And some days you’re the lab rat!

So please answer my question:

If a hunter studbook is such a great idea why hasn’t the KWPN created one in the Netherlands?

[ise]

Tom - BINGO!! Well said.

[nhwr]

No guts, no glory.

And some days you’re the lab rat!

So please answer my question:

If a hunter studbook is such a great idea why hasn’t the KWPN created one in the Netherlands?

It seems rather obvious that most breeders in the Netherlands breed for the market in their region, rather than exclusively for export across the Atlantic. And that makes sense. Since there is no hunter market in their region (and many europeans don’t really get what makes a good hunter), the demand for hunter breeding doesn’t exist in the Netherlands.

Hey, no one is saying that breeders should have to use hunter stallions. If they don’t work in your program, skip 'em. Most breeders are knowledgable enough to tell what a stallion’s strengths and weaknesses are and do that already anyway. I think it is a good thing that the KWPN is looking at what breeders need in the US market. It is the only way a registery can remain relevent in the US. Look around on this board. There are threads all the time questioning what value registries offer, about whether european registries are necessary in the US. These are valid questions. If european registeries won’t respond to and/or serve the demands of our market, their future is limited here. And I think the KWPN knows that.

Breeding isn’t for the faint at heart :yes: Where would the KWPN program be today without “experimental” sires like the ones I mentioned earlier?

[ynl063w]

[QUOTE=tom;1868146]
The vast majority of hunters are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses – [/QUOTE]

I know nothing about breeding OR registries, but I do know genetics and I’m guessing that the vast majority of horses being bred for international showjumping and dressage are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses. There are probably many more that don’t make the cut than those that do. Of the ones that don’t make it, a few may have what it takes to become successful show hunters, but most will just be average at best at whatever their owners choose for them, whether it be jumpers, dressage, hunters, eventing, or trail riding. Some won’t be good at anything.

[Spoilsport]

[QUOTE=tom;1868146]
Riggs, Please read my posts more carefully. I said that hunters form a valuable part of the residual. The vast majority of hunters are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses – why is this a controversial statement?[/QUOTE]

To me, because it’s a gross generalization and based on wrong information. That’s the way it might look to you on your side of the Atlantic. Here in the USA I’ve owned and shown both hunters and jumpers (mostly hunters) and worked with trainers that worked with both (mostly hunters). I am sure there are hunters that would not be able to handle a Grand Prix jumper course, just as there are a heck of a lot of jumpers that would not be competitive in the top levels of the hunters. The word “residual” suggests that hunters are inferior, and I don’t agree.

My horse that ended up as a jumper (and a very successful one) was scopey and athletic, but didn’t have the form over fences that he needed to be competitive in the hunters. How many horses look like Rox Dene over a jump? There are a multitude of reasons why a good jumper might not make it as a hunter - too hot, hanging knees, not a “wow” bascule.

I am not suggesting that jumpers are hunter rejects. I know many hunters that couldn’t jump the more technical jumper courses. I agree with you that you are looking for different qualities, but, in America, it often makes more sense to steer a horse that could do both to the hunters, especially in light of the huge market for junior hunters.

As far as breeding for the hunters, in my junior days here were a lot of successful thoroughbreds on the hunter circuit (there still are). You could buy a TB cheaply and make it into a six-figure horse. It took some hunter trainers a while to warm up to WB’s and WB-crosses.

[fish]

[QUOTE There has been evidence that breeding hunter to hunter can create a loss in scope and athletic ability based on the breeding programs of successful hunters on the line. .[/QUOTE]

What evidence are you referring to? Is there a tracking system out there I don’t know about?

I’d also llike to point out that many of the arguments being used against allowing hunters into a main(?) studbook could also be used against dressage horses vs. jumpers, and vice-versa: i.e., I’ve heard that some stallions who are extremely successful in dressage are themselves downright dangerous over fences and tend to pass that deficiency to their offspring (e.g. Laurie’s Crusader)-- and likewise the other way around: I haven’t heard of Galoubet’s or Alme’s doing much in dressage. This hasn’t prevented even a jumper-oriented registry like the Holsteiner Verband from using Laurie’s Crusader or the Dutch from including many horses leaning heavily toward one discipline and away from the other in their books.

Hence, it seems clear that the concerns over including hunters come from a comparative lack of respect for the discipline, not recognition of the fact that it makes different and equally respectable demands on a horse.

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=mazu;1868071]
I think you misread him. It’s a comment made by someone who simply has no interest in breeding for hunters, who thinks the skill set required by the discipline is quite different, and who is concerned about the direction the registry is going in bringing hunters in under its umbrella.

Hunters typically HAVE been drawn from the ranks of jumper and dressage “dropouts,” among European warmbloods at least, with no real consequences for the individual registries (since their breeding focus didn’t change). What happens when you start breeding for hunters specifically–what was in the past “residual”? Does that affect the registry as a whole? I can’t see how it WOULDN’T.

You say that the disciplines are “extremely different.” I think that’s the point. The Dutch have traditionally bred for dressage and jumpers, and when you bring a whole different discipline focus into your studbook there are going to be consequences. Good, bad, or indifferent I don’t know, but it’s to be entirely expected that Dutch breeders would want to think it through.

No need to be defensive–no one said otherwise. Hunters are great at what they do.[/QUOTE]

I have no interest in being defensive - I dont even own a hunter any more.
I simply disagree with what I read. And if I misread him I apologize, however the broad brush statements he made are indicative of a lack of understanding of what is required and came across as quite derogatory.

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868146]
Riggs, Please read my posts more carefully. I said that hunters form a valuable part of the residual. The vast majority of hunters are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses – why is this a controversial statement? And the vast majority of international showjumpers and dressage horses do not possess the skills needed to be hunters.

In the same vein, I’d argue that there is no top international eventing horse competing today that has the ability to compete successfully in international showjumping at a comparable level (3*, 4*, 5*). But likewise I know of no top international showjumper that could compete sucessfully at that level in eventing. A difference skill set and mental attitude is required.

I would not expect a typical international showjumper or dressage horse to put in a winning round in a hunter competition. And vice versa. But for a studbook whose stated strategic objective is to win the WBFSH rankings for international showjumping and international dressage where is the wisdom in purposefully breeding horses designed to jump no higher than what, 1.25 m., and to do so without the electricity, scope, and technique required for international showjumping (to limit the description to showjumping)?

The KWPN is conducting an experiment and is using US breeders and horses as their lab rats: Can you build a successful “hunter studbook” without totally screwing up the main studbook where showjumping and dressage horses go? The hunter market in the US is huge and the Netherlands is an exporting country. Why have they not created the hunter studbook in the Netherlands as well, thereby assisting their Dutch breeders in putting hunter prospects on the ground for export across the Atlantic?

The answer to me is crystal clear. The KWPN is experimenting in the US and will not risk damaging their own valuable gene pool, and the progress they have made over the last two or three decades, by promoting the breeding of sub-optimal traits.

You may not like me saying these things but this is the harsh reality.

llsc, I am not ging to comment on the particular stallion’s potential to compete as a showjumper.

All GPs are not the same. I am not talking about 1.30 - 1.35 m GP; I am talking about 4* and 5* 1.60 m. technical GP that mature stallions are expected to be successful at if they have any hope of being approved by the KWPN. Can a hunter stallion do it? Before he is approved for the RP section of the studbook he should have to prove it. In any case, it is an academic deiscussion because the KWPN simply cannot approve a 9-y-o hunter for the RP studbook if it has not shown successfully in international showjumping or dressage – unless the KWPN leaderhip has gone so far off the rails that they are willing to damage the RP studbook in the USA, with the knowledge that for all intents and purposes 99.9% of the traffic of breeding stock between the Netherlands and the USA goes in the direction favorable to the Dutch.

mazu and showjumpers66 – thank you. Voices of reason and analysis.[/QUOTE]

No, no Tom. It is the way you said it and the way I as a reader interpreted it. You say they are not good enough for x. You meant they are not appropriate for x. Maybe you should have said what you just said about jumpers and dressage horses - they possess a different skill set. Or you could have said just now that dressage and jumpers are not good enough to be hunters. See what I mean? Your biases were showing through. That is what I felt was inappropriate in your statement, not that I didnt read carefully enough. Perhaps I read too carefully. And I take my hat off to anyone who speaks the truth. As you can see, I too call a spade a spade. But I believe one has to be very careful about wording things as people with less knowledge do read this board and may interpret exactly as I did.

I have absolutely no problem with hunters being chosen from jumper or dressage stock. (My show hunter was by an Olympic medal winning dressage horse). But no need to speak in a negative fashion while doing so about something that you do not know about (by your choice).

There are breeders out there who are breeding excellent hunter stock btw in North America. Flavour of the month is still the European WB and I think the NA market will have to do some organized campaigning to change this.

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868186]
“Some days you’re a Louisville Slugger. Some days you’re the ball.”

And some days you’re the lab rat!

So please answer my question:

If a hunter studbook is such a great idea why hasn’t the KWPN created one in the Netherlands?[/QUOTE]

Because they dont have the hunter discipline in Netherlands!

This is a N.A. phenomenon.

This is starting to change with the advent of small hunter shows being created in Netherlands to ready hunters for the hugely lucrative N.A. market.

[tom]

I am sorry but you are wrong. It is for the same reason that the KWPN studbook (and the Holsteiner studbook) do not have the breeding of eventing horses as a strategic objective: it will take detract them from what they do best and damage their gene-pool. It will require the infusion of too much TB blood, and almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.

If you honestly believe that stallions that can quietly jump 1.25 m. courses on a loose rein should be approved for the RP section of the KWPN studbook, then god bless you. Work away. And I have a bridge to sell you…

[Riggs]

[QUOTE=tom;1868324]
I am sorry but you are wrong. It is for the same reason that the KWPN studbook (and the Holsteiner studbook) do not have the breeding of eventing horses as a strategic objective: it will take detract them from what they do best and damage their gene-pool. It will require the infusion of too much TB blood, and almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement.

If you honestly believe that stallions that can quietly jump 1.25 m. courses on a loose rein should be approved for the RP section of the KWPN studbook, then god bless you. Work away. And I have a bridge to sell you…[/QUOTE]

Tom, did I say that? Now, now, please dont put words in my mouth. It appears as if you are trying to change the context of what I was saying and I am sure you wouldnt be wanting it to be seen that way.

As for the reasoning as to why they dont have a separate book. You know this how? If you are giving your opinion, fine. But don’t say I am wrong unless you have proof.

And, how can having a separate hunter book ‘damage’ their gene pool? You have different lines. Some for hunters, some for dressage, some for jumpers.

Horses are a huge sport in Netherlands as you no doubt know since living in Ireland I am sure you have been there often and know many breeders. Hunters are a teeny tiny part of the European focus. Why would they open a seperate book over there for something that is not centre stage for them?

I met a KWPN breeder/sales agent from Netherlands in Fla (actually we both stayed at mutual friends’ home). He sells to the top AA show trainers (I could give you a list of recognizable names, but wont). He was telling me that there are FLOCKS of sales agents at WEF and they are bumping into each other all over WEF. While at home in the Netherlands, it is not even on the meter at shows. Europe is historically very slow to change in matters like this and as well, there is no interest in it for the Netherlands itself. They focus on the traditions and the Olympics. It is a North American thing. Leave it to KWPN-NA.

[carosello]

How many horses look like Rox Dene over a jump? There are a multitude of reasons why a good jumper might not make it as a hunter - too hot, hanging knees, not a “wow” bascule

So maybe this is too simple a question to ask…but does breeding a top hunter to a top hunter automatically give you a top hunter? (I think we all have a better idea with dressage and jumpers already)

Since you used RD I will use her too…if she was bred (I think she has been??) to a top hunter stallion are her foals out there competing to the same level as she? Or was she the lucky combination but that those wonder hunter things about her are not produced again until a few more generations? I know jumping is something that can be passed down but what about those knees and the bascule, is that something that can be inherited also?

[CBoylen]

I don’t see how you can determine, without seeing the horse, that just because it makes a good hunter it doesn’t have the same scope as the rest of the stallions in the registry.
Some hunters of course don’t have an ideal amount of scope.
They aren’t the good hunters.
It takes a tremendous amount of scope to be able to jump a 4’ oxer that is banked up with walls and brush and flowers from the gap on a slow long canter on a loose rein. These horses don’t have the luxury of having the scope ridden into them to the strong basey distance. They have to jump off their own power, and do it in ideal form with as much air to spare as possible. They can’t rub. They can’t skim the jumps. They can’t deviate from the desired striding in the lines or swap leads off the ground or shift in any direction. And they have to do it carrying more weight than your average showjumper.

[LLDM]

@ynl063w;1868235

I know nothing about breeding OR registries, but I do know genetics and I’m guessing that the vast majority of horses being bred for international showjumping and dressage are not good enough to become international showjumpers and dressage horses. There are probably many more that don’t make the cut than those that do. Of the ones that don’t make it, a few may have what it takes to become successful show hunters, but most will just be average at best at whatever their owners choose for them, whether it be jumpers, dressage, hunters, eventing, or trail riding. Some won’t be good at anything.

Thank you and well said. And while we can “load the dice” to a certain extent by using quality breeding stock, the fact is there are no garantees - just better and better odds.

Which leads me to my next post…

[Spoilsport]

[QUOTE=carosello;1868343]
So maybe this is too simple a question to ask…but does breeding a top hunter to a top hunter automatically give you a top hunter? (I think we all have a better idea with dressage and jumpers already)

Since you used RD I will use her too…if she was bred (I think she has been??) to a top hunter stallion are her foals out there competing to the same level as she?[/QUOTE]

Wasn’t Rox Dene bred to Popeye? I think it was fairly recently, so too soon to tell how successful the foals will be.

I am not a breeder and don’t mean to give the impression I know about all the factors that go into breeding. Maybe it is too tricky to breed a top hunter. I simply disagree with Tom’s suggestions that the hunters are the residuals. My opinion is based on working with horses two and older, not on breeding.

[LLDM]

@fish;1868254

I’d also llike to point out that many of the arguments being used against allowing hunters into a main(?) studbook could also be used against dressage horses vs. jumpers, and vice-versa: i.e., …

Good point. Most of the studbooks that went to an agressive specialization (as I understand it) in dressage or jumpers have now backed off that plan somewhat. It seems this creates its own problems and weaknesses can creep in in certain areas.

An athletic horse is and athletic horse for the most part. And there is no single thing or set of things that make a great horse great - in any discipline. There are horses that “should be” great, but are not - and those “should not be” great who are. Kind of like people, it isn’t so simple.

Genetics seems to encourage and reward diversity. And seems to punish those who get a bit too restrictive.

SCFarm

[fish]

[QUOTE=tom;1868324]
and almost all TB sires active today destroy jump and movement rather than contribute to jump and movement. /QUOTE]

And that’s why the top jumpers at the WEG were predominately of “modern.” lighter type with a heavy component of TB blood, with even the heavier Berlin having plenty of TB in his pedigree? (Wasn’t there a thread to that effect recently?)
And is this why the Holsteiner Verband continues to offer 17-20+ TB stallions and approve a few Hol/TB crosses as stallions every year?
And is it also why Prince Thatch xx is so sought after in dressage prospects?

[CBoylen]

@carosello;1868343

So maybe this is too simple a question to ask…but does breeding a top hunter to a top hunter automatically give you a top hunter? (I think we all have a better idea with dressage and jumpers already)
Since you used RD I will use her too…if she was bred (I think she has been??) to a top hunter stallion are her foals out there competing to the same level as she? Or was she the lucky combination but that those wonder hunter things about her are not produced again until a few more generations? I know jumping is something that can be passed down but what about those knees and the bascule, is that something that can be inherited also?

I think it’s about as effective as breeding a top jumper to a top jumper. Sometimes you get lucky, sometimes you don’t. Touch of Class, for example, never reproduced her talent.
One thing you do tend to get when you breed hunter type to hunter type is a hunter type. It may vary in talent, but for the most part you have a marketable horse that fits in at some level of the discipline. The same I suppose holds true for all breeding, your two GP horses may not produce a GP horse, but they probably produce a few childrens jumpers, a few junior jumpers, and maybe one national level GP horse. Where you’re getting the “residual” argument just stems from the fact that if the horse is pretty and moves well, it’s worth 10x as much as a mediocre hunter than it is as a childrens jumper, so that is what it becomes.

As for Rox Dene, she produced two foals bred to a TB with classic hunter lines. They got the jump, but we were not as pleased with the size (smaller than her) or the type (finer than her). We had been hoping to maintain her type without increasing her size or bulk, as she is a big mare. That is why we went with a TB sire. So, lesson learned. Both those foals were sold and the 7 year old gelding has a career in the A/O hunters while the 5 year old filly is starting its pregreen career. I would be interested to see what the filly produces if it is eventually bred.
Rox Dene’s final foal, by Popeye, is only a yearling, so it will be some time before anyone can determine if she will be as successful as either or both of her parents. We’re extremely pleased with her though, as she is very similar to the mare as a young horse, and has all the movement and temperament parts. There are pictures of her in my webshots link.