Marilyn,
People will say things in a forum that they would never say in person to the owner of a stallion.
That’s why I am opposed to the concept in another thread of hashing over stallions.
Tom,
It’s funny that you think that Hunters are horses who don’t have the scope or talent to do the jumpers. Die hard hunter people think jumpers are horses that are just too hot and hard to ride and that’s why they have to become jumpers.
From watching Popeye K jump, I think he has the scope to do Grand Prixs. His jump is exceptional. He jumps the 4 foot with room to spare and with a bascule that his rider can scarcely stay with. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see him in the jumpers in a few years, after he’s won everything there is to win in the hunter world.
[QUOTE=llsc;1867504]
Tom,
It’s funny that you think that Hunters are horses who don’t have the scope or talent to do the jumpers. Die hard hunter people think jumpers are horses that are just too hot and hard to ride and that’s why they have to become jumpers. [QUOTE]
–and/or that horses are made into jumpers because they jump high, but not in good enough form to compete as hunters.
Remember Tom Boy at the Atlantic Olympics? Clearly a horse need not have much in the way of jumping form to win show jumping medals!
A hunter= a horse with talent over fences who is “too pretty to be wasted in the jumpers.” (Quote from an A-circuit rider of both hunters and jumpers regarding a recently acquired horse he was showing as a hunter).
Dogs neither carry weight, nor are prone to founder.
“Obesity in horses can negatively impact the respiratory, digestive, and skeletal systems, causing serious conditions such as colic, laminitis (founder), gastric ulcers, and lameness problems.” www.fda.gov/cvm/september.htm
And, for heavens SAKE, people! Why, why, why do horse women have to be so sensitive skinned about their beasties? Take a step back and BREATHE. Why even CARE what a few internet crackpots (or whatever–I include myself in that group) think? Freedom of speech, girls. Get used to it or stay out of the public’s eye.
Dogs neither carry weight, nor are prone to founder.
“Obesity in horses can negatively impact the respiratory, digestive, and skeletal systems, causing serious conditions such as colic, laminitis (founder), gastric ulcers, and lameness problems.” www.fda.gov/cvm/september.htm
“Overfeeding of high-calorie feeds results in obesity in horses and may contribute to developmental orthopedic disease in growing horses. Obesity increases the risk of laminitis and colic due to strangulation of the small intestine by pedunculated mesenteric lipomas. Obese horses and ponies have decreased insulin sensitivity and reduced heat and exercise tolerance.” http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182606.htm
And, for heavens SAKE, people! Why, why, why do horse women have to be so sensitive skinned about their beasties? Take a step back and BREATHE. Why even CARE what a few internet crackpots (or whatever–I include myself in that group) think? Freedom of speech, girls. Get used to it or stay out of the public’s eye.
Dogs neither carry weight, nor are prone to founder.
“Obesity in horses can negatively impact the respiratory, digestive, and skeletal systems, causing serious conditions such as colic, laminitis (founder), gastric ulcers, and lameness problems.” www.fda.gov/cvm/september.htm
“Overfeeding of high-calorie feeds results in obesity in horses and may contribute to developmental orthopedic disease in growing horses. Obesity increases the risk of laminitis and colic due to strangulation of the small intestine by pedunculated mesenteric lipomas. Obese horses and ponies have decreased insulin sensitivity and reduced heat and exercise tolerance.” http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182606.htm
And, for heavens SAKE, people! Why, why, why do horse women have to be so sensitive skinned about their beasties? Take a step back and BREATHE. Why even CARE what a few internet crackpots (or whatever–I include myself in that group) think? Freedom of speech, girls. Get used to it or stay out of the public’s eye.
Shoos and Rio,
that was basically what I was alluding to, but I went off on a rant (first visit from AF after my son’s birth, but only a little more than 2 weeks after I “dried up” from major pstpartum complications…sorry, I’m pretty crabby)
It just seems like a lot of people are coming in saying this VERY NICE and successful hunter stallion is too fat and wasn’t ridden dressagey (sp) enough to be included in the NA studbook…unless it was strictly as a hunter stud. That last part being stated like it would “prove” he’s an inferior stud. At least that’s how it appeared to come across to me.
Also, hunters, their talent and their extra weight started coming up in a very negative way, which is why I brought up that horses in other disciplines aren’t perfect, either.
I have had the opportunity to watch Popeye show (before I moved across the country), and I’m well aware he’s a special man. I love watching him! And I, personally, hope he gets full approval because I think he belongs there.
My apologies for the negative posts. I just get tired of hearing hunters bashed.
[QUOTE=Sabovee;1865046]
That’s not true - I’ve been on Popeyes back! ;)[/QUOTE]
And also Ian Millar who rode Popeye before Tommy did. And that was before Rachel Spencer bought him.
[QUOTE=KaraAD;1865160]
Well if anyone out there can get any 3 year old to go like Popeye in 1 month, please let me know - you’re my new best friend. I was at ISF, and the Dutch inspectors certainly seemed pretty happy with Popeye. Sure, the dressage test wasn’t very dressage-y but he was also the only stallion who did both parts. Obediah didn’t jump (except straight up in the air in the dressage ring) and Voodoo only did 2 of the smaller fences. (Of course, I heard Voodoo’s “jumper” rider tell the jury that Voodoo had only ever done 10 fences before.) While Popeye wasn’t dressage-y, he did the dressage test like a perfect hunter - which of course is what he is - and he made the jumping look like a walk in the park. I think it was great that Tommy and Popeye gave the dressage test a shot. I’m not sure how it works, but if a performance record means that you don’t have to do the part of the keuring that is not your specialty, then clearly Popeye would have been able to opt out of the dressage as well.
Also, while I’m sure Rachel Spencer would love to have Popeye get high marks in all parts of the keuring, I can only guess that neither Rachel nor Tommy are interested in messing with Popeye’s way of going. Sure, they could have practiced a pretty easy dressage test more, but perhaps they prefer to keep him prepped up for winning his 4’ hunter courses instead.[/QUOTE]
Well said. These people werent born yesterday! Tommy has been up, down and around the block more than most people could ever dream of.
You can bet they strategized and decided to show him via the training he has and needs in his current career.
[QUOTE=meghan1963;1865200]
The Dressage portion of the IBOP is not supposed to be ridden like a “dressage test”. The judges are looking at the horses movement & way of going.
from the KWPN-NA entry booklet - section on the IBOP:
Dressage
The test is not judged movement by movement,
but receives an overall score based on
general evaluation of gaits, willingness,
impulsion and boldness. Accuracy is secondary,
errors are not counted. Trot may be
ridden sitting or rising.[/QUOTE]
Another reason why maybe people should not criticize what they do not know.
[QUOTE=SpongeBobSquarePants;1865663]
It will be certainly very interesting to see what the KWPN jury does with a hunter stallion who was presented for the regular book in the manner of a show hunter. I can’t remember that being done in previous years, but again so much has changed recently with the KWPN it is hard to keep up. :winkgrin:
While he certainly has the ‘oooh, look, shiney’ prettiness of a sparkly sabeeno, he looks downright obese in those photos. :no:
I have never understood why they hunter people like their horses so obese. I would think it would lead to some longterm unsoundness issues from carrying the extra weigh over fences.
Can anyone tell me how many horses are generally in the division(s?) that Popeye shows in? Are they huge divisions?[/QUOTE]
Ever been to WEF? Horses that win everything show there. And he wins there. Very tough company.
[QUOTE=tom;1865734]
The KWPN simply cannot approve a hunter stallion for the riding horse (RP) section of the studbook (where showjumping and dressage sires go).
For a stallion the age of this one to be approved for the RP section of the studbook, he should be an international grand prix horse; ideally he would be a successful nations cup/world cup/European Championship/Olympic etc. horse. Hunter classes, no matter how many and how advanced, cannot be a substitute.
The best hunters are good-looking horses with excellent rideability that make a bascule over the small fences they jump but are not required to exhibit the scope and technique in the shoulders and front legs that international showjumpers tend to have: a hunter’s landing gear usually does not go up. Hunters also do not display the technique with their hindlegs that many excellent international showjumpers exhibit. Hunters, although correct movers, lack the elasticity that many of us look for in showjumping (and, of course, dressage) sires.
The KWPN has climbed out on the slippery slope of “hunter breeding” because is is a vast market in the USA. But I cannot envision the stallion inspectors approving for the RP studbook stallions that lack the scope, technique, and elasticity required for international showjumping.
These comments are not meant as criticism of the stallion. He is a hunter and a very successful competitor. From what I know of the horse he certainly deserves to be approved for the HUNTER section of the KWPN studbook … but definitely not the RP section.[/QUOTE]
Quite right Tom. Hunters are not supposed to use themselves strongly because of their originating purpose. They are to look like they would be comfortable to ride all day. That is why the daisy cutter trot wins over the big expressive trot every time in Hunters. However, balance, rhythm, elasticity, responsiveness are all traits of good hunters as well.
I am a person trained in eventing, with an interest in jumpers, but I have owned a successful show hunter and do see the difference in GOOD hunters and jumpers.
Since many of the studbooks are originating in Europe where hunters do not exist, this makes them invisible to the European books. It does not mean that they must be a jumper or a dressage horse to be any good.
Europe is now changing. In the last few years Europe has awakened to the recognition of this ‘hunter’ discipline and the huge dollars for breeders, though what interest there is is solely to ready them for the North American market.
[QUOTE=spacely;1865856]
Not Popeye, but I can think of a few SO’s on this BB that seem to think their boy is a perfect match for every mare. Whether it be dressage, jumpers, hunters or eventers…:winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
Well, that would be scarey and doing their stallion a serious disservice. A stallion owner who wants to stay in business and have his or her stallion be a success would want to breed only to mares that would result in a foal that improves the type. I think you want to watch carefully for what strengths are being brought to the table and what weaknesses must be improved upon.
Otherwise, you are being very shortsighted.
I am one of those fussy DQs.
Regarding Popeye K; his pedigree is impeccible, his offspring are impressive. I think he is fabulous. IBOP tests are supposed to evaluate gaits, not rider technique. Even the best stallions must be paired with the appropriate mares for optimum results. But, IMO, if the KWPN decides not to approve Popeye K, it is their loss.
[QUOTE=tom;1867077]
hackinaround,
I don’t read anyone throwing a fit or talking about rejects.
If you seriously think that top hunter competitors usually have ability to be international showjumpers or dressage horses then you need go out and see the kind of fences and courses 4* and 5* international showjumpers are confronted with.
I have no problem with the KWPN approving this stallion for the hunter studbook. In fact, assuming he passes the x-rays and vet exam and progeny inspection, it would be a great thing.
However, I am raising the fundamental question about the wisdom of purposefully trying to create a genetic population of “hunters” by breeding sub-optimal traits into the genetic population of showjumpers and dressage horses. This is unwise and unlikely to be successful, in my opinion.
And I would still like to be hear about the group of hunter sires and dams that are differentiated from showjumping and dressage sires and dams both in their own bloodlines and in what they produce. They don’t exist.
Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom, let’s see a top dressage horse or grand prix jumper put in a winning hunter round.
We are talking three different disciplines. Even I, who am not a dyed in the wool hunter person, saw your comment about hunters being hunters only because they are not good enough to be a dressage horse or a jumper as a comment made by someone who cant know much about hunters.
They have to do the course on a loopy rein, no swapping leads except near the corners, even rhythm, and an easy going lope-all-day style. Their head carriage must be low, natural and easy. Their jump must use themselves but not with a huge effort. As a former rider of jumpers and trained in eventing, I can tell you that it is extremely different. I would get on my show hunter (I had a pro riding him) and he would turn around and look at me like ‘what the fuh?’ It is very different and different traits are looked for.
Yes, in Europe the horses that cant do the big jumps are often bought by North Americans for the hunter circuit. But it is because the traits needed for hunters are not required by jumpers - they are just very, very different. Not lesser. Just different needs for the two. So not all ‘loser’ jumpers will be suitable as hunters. Not at all by far. The horses that are looked for are a very specific style of jumping and movement. Not just something that cant jump very high.
[QUOTE=ise@ssl;1866871]
I don’t believe that a top hunter stallion (performance and breeding) cannot work in a dressage frame. The stallion Ragtime is a good example. He is an extremely successful hunter and hunter producer but at the 100 Day stallion testing - his work undersaddle with both bereiters and guest riders (all dressage riders) was exemplary. He was extremely talented with respect to responding to various disciplines.
So to somehow say that because Popeye K is a fabulous hunter but being ridden in by a dressage rider in a dressage frame would ruin him - doesn’t hold water for me.
As I read this thread I understood he was being presented for FULL licensing - not just HUNTER licensing. If that wasn’t the case - then I’m sure he did was required for the hunters.[/QUOTE]
I have seen other successful hunter stallions work in a frame also. Perhaps that is not the way to ride this particular hunter (Popeye). In fact I see many hunters in general who are schooled this way to ensure elasticity and balance.
Personally I dont think we can read the owner and trainer’s mind in this. They showed him the way they felt comfortable doing and I guess the results will tell if it really mattered or not. I do have a concern if he was not being presented solely for the hunter book, but I am not the owner and trainer who surely did what they felt was best for their much loved horse and good on them. Who are we to decide from our arm chairs what they should or shouldnt be doing?
Evaluating gaits on the basis of “frame” is ridiculous
originally posted by ise;
So to somehow say that because Popeye K is a fabulous hunter but being ridden in by a dressage rider in a dressage frame would ruin him - doesn’t hold water for me.
Any dressage rider worth their salt ( I am including KWPN inspectors here) knows that riding a horse “in a frame” is the antithesis of dreassage and therefore meaningless for the purpose of evaluating native gaits. To evaluate the athletic nature of his gaits, “frame” should be irrelevent.
[QUOTE=nhwr;1867932]
originally posted by ise;Any dressage rider worth their salt ( I am including KWPN inspectors here) knows that riding a horse “in a frame” is the antithesis of dreassage and therefore meaningless for the purpose of evaluating native gaits. To evaluate the athletic nature of his gaits, “frame” should be irrelevent.[/QUOTE]
HA! Good one!
I am assuming you mean as a result of the horse using himself well and properly as opposed to being ‘forced’ in a ‘frame’ which wouldnt be as important as seeing how a horse moved and used himself…?
[QUOTE=Riggs;1867892]
Tom, let’s see a top dressage horse or grand prix jumper put in a winning hunter round.
We are talking three different disciplines. Even I, who am not a dyed in the wool hunter person, saw your comment about hunters being hunters only because they are not good enough to be a dressage horse or a jumper as a comment made by someone who cant know much about hunters.[/QUOTE]
I think you misread him. It’s a comment made by someone who simply has no interest in breeding for hunters, who thinks the skill set required by the discipline is quite different, and who is concerned about the direction the registry is going in bringing hunters in under its umbrella.
Hunters typically HAVE been drawn from the ranks of jumper and dressage “dropouts,” among European warmbloods at least, with no real consequences for the individual registries (since their breeding focus didn’t change). What happens when you start breeding for hunters specifically–what was in the past “residual”? Does that affect the registry as a whole? I can’t see how it WOULDN’T.
You say that the disciplines are “extremely different.” I think that’s the point. The Dutch have traditionally bred for dressage and jumpers, and when you bring a whole different discipline focus into your studbook there are going to be consequences. Good, bad, or indifferent I don’t know, but it’s to be entirely expected that Dutch breeders would want to think it through.
They have to do the course on a loopy rein, no swapping leads except near the corners, even rhythm, and an easy going lope-all-day style. Their head carriage must be low, natural and easy. Their jump must use themselves but not with a huge effort. As a former rider of jumpers and trained in eventing, I can tell you that it is extremely different. I would get on my show hunter (I had a pro riding him) and he would turn around and look at me like ‘what the fuh?’ It is very different and different traits are looked for.
Yes, in Europe the horses that cant do the big jumps are often bought by North Americans for the hunter circuit. But it is because the traits needed for hunters are not required by jumpers - they are just very, very different. Not lesser. Just different needs for the two. So not all ‘loser’ jumpers will be suitable as hunters. Not at all by far. The horses that are looked for are a very specific style of jumping and movement. Not just something that cant jump very high.
No need to be defensive–no one said otherwise. Hunters are great at what they do.
I agree that it is a great thing that Popeye K was presented and I also agree that the discussion is more about hunter stallions and their place in the studbooks then Popeye K himself.
As long as the hunter stallion also has the talent for either upper level jumping or dressage, I do feel that they should be considered for the regular studbook. But, I also understand the concern voiced by Tom and others. There has been evidence that breeding hunter to hunter can create a loss in scope and athletic ability based on the breeding programs of successful hunters on the line. Right now, there is not a formula for success. A hunter breeding database would go a very long way towards developing this formula. Track the pedigrees of the top 20 or so in each 3’6" to 4’ hunter division over the last 10 years. This would be the most useful means of finding what works.
