Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[KaraAD]

[QUOTE=little miss;1864953]
I hate to say this because he is a nice hunter, BUT he does look like a 1 month broke 3 year old in those photos (and they are lovely photos they just don’t have the expression the other horses show in the other photos). No doubt that the Dutch inspectors went back to their hotel rooms scratching their heads over that IBOP test. I mean I have seen SEVERAL 3 year old stallions that are ‘further along’ in their dressage training, although they were in the direction of jumping and dressage. I’m extremely interested to see the outcome of that. And why didn’t they practice the test at least enough to get it down for the IBOP?, it’s like an “B” level in Holland = the LOWEST and easiest level test a young horse can do. Has Tommy really not ever payed attention to dressage?? I’m sure with one week of training he could have done a nice test, it’s a shame Tommy didn’t show him off better. (do I need to put my flaming suit on??)[/QUOTE]

Well if anyone out there can get any 3 year old to go like Popeye in 1 month, please let me know - you’re my new best friend. I was at ISF, and the Dutch inspectors certainly seemed pretty happy with Popeye. Sure, the dressage test wasn’t very dressage-y but he was also the only stallion who did both parts. Obediah didn’t jump (except straight up in the air in the dressage ring) and Voodoo only did 2 of the smaller fences. (Of course, I heard Voodoo’s “jumper” rider tell the jury that Voodoo had only ever done 10 fences before.) While Popeye wasn’t dressage-y, he did the dressage test like a perfect hunter - which of course is what he is - and he made the jumping look like a walk in the park. I think it was great that Tommy and Popeye gave the dressage test a shot. I’m not sure how it works, but if a performance record means that you don’t have to do the part of the keuring that is not your specialty, then clearly Popeye would have been able to opt out of the dressage as well.

Also, while I’m sure Rachel Spencer would love to have Popeye get high marks in all parts of the keuring, I can only guess that neither Rachel nor Tommy are interested in messing with Popeye’s way of going. Sure, they could have practiced a pretty easy dressage test more, but perhaps they prefer to keep him prepped up for winning his 4’ hunter courses instead.

[KaraAD]

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;1865133]
Little miss - I agree that the photos unfortunately show a gorgeous horse and appears to be pleasant to ride but definitely not “in front of the leg”. If he had been - the rounding in front and movement over the back into the top line would definitely be there. It will be interesting to see if he gets full licensing.[/QUOTE]

So, I don’t know that much about the process. (I read the booklet that I got at the Keruing at ISF about the process but I found some parts confusing.) Does a stallion with a performance record have to do all of the parts? I’m wondering because the other two stallions didn’t jump - either at all or didn’t do an actual course. Does that mean they can’t get approved for breeding/ full licensing?

[meghan1963]

The Dressage portion of the IBOP is not supposed to be ridden like a “dressage test”. The judges are looking at the horses movement & way of going.

from the KWPN-NA entry booklet - section on the IBOP:

Dressage
The test is not judged movement by movement,
but receives an overall score based on
general evaluation of gaits, willingness,
impulsion and boldness. Accuracy is secondary,
errors are not counted. Trot may be
ridden sitting or rising.

[CBoylen]

@little miss;1864953

I hate to say this because he is a nice hunter, BUT he does look like a 1 month broke 3 year old in those photos (and they are lovely photos they just don’t have the expression the other horses show in the other photos). No doubt that the Dutch inspectors went back to their hotel rooms scratching their heads over that IBOP test. I mean I have seen SEVERAL 3 year old stallions that are ‘further along’ in their dressage training, although they were in the direction of jumping and dressage. I’m extremely interested to see the outcome of that. And why didn’t they practice the test at least enough to get it down for the IBOP?, it’s like an “B” level in Holland = the LOWEST and easiest level test a young horse can do. Has Tommy really not ever payed attention to dressage?? I’m sure with one week of training he could have done a nice test, it’s a shame Tommy didn’t show him off better. (do I need to put my flaming suit on??)

No one was interested in changing Popeye’s training in order to do one dressage test. They’re either going to take him as he is or not. He’s a hunter, he’s trained like a hunter, and you don’t fix what’s not broken. He’s perfectly trained to do his job. That’s why Tommy did the test and not a dressage rider. No one has ridden the horse other than Tommy in the four years he’s been in the barn, other than Rachel hacking him once. And no, none of us have payed any attention to dressage, it’s not our discipline. Tommy practiced the test as much as his schedule allowed, and adapted Popeye’s way of going as much as he though suitable and not detrimental to the horse’s real career.

[cherham]

Having spoken to Rachael at length at last years Royal Agricultural Winter Fair in Toronto I think she and Tommy did exactly what needed to be done to prepare him adequately for the inspection.

We are all very proud of him here in Canada and are watching his numerous offspring now competing under saddle. My hubby has had the privledge of showing two of Popeye K’s kids in the line classes here in Ontario and done very well (Multiple Championships) with both.

I am quite sure we will see quite a few of Popeye K’s offspring in the Cup classes again at this years Royal Horse Show. Can hardly wait!

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@Tiki;1864744

Obadiah was absolutely gorgeous. Beautiful gaits, gorgeous color, and amazing ‘airs above the ground’. Man oh man did he have a good rider on him. Absolutely nothing fazed her and he did some things that would have had me bailing off and running for cover!

I’ll pass on your compliment!—she is quite a good rider (and nothing like that would faze her) although it doesn’t sound like Obadiah was his normal good self! He’s usually very good–I’ve even gave him a bath at a show once (helping them out) and he was a pussy cat. I don’t normally like stallions but he is a cool boy.

[AC_Ty]

[QUOTE=Oakstable;1864375]
Very handsome.

What’s his web site? Does he throw his chrome?

Sally[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen 2 or 3 “littleuns” in the breeding classes, most recently at the Keswick summer show…where there was a STUNNING chesnut colt with a wide white blaze and 4 over-the-hock-and-knee white stockings…and the others I’ve seen have been similiar. Of the ones I’ve seen, even if they only had 2 white legs, they’ve been stockings. So I’d say he stamps them.

I would give my left boob to breed a mare to him. And that’s about 2500 bucks worth. :lol:

And just because I want to throw in my 2 cents…why in the world would they change Popeye’s entire way of going for ONE dressage test? And I’m sure he was moving forward, and boldly. No doubt about that…and I wasn’t there!

POPEYE K RULES!

[Tiki]

bornfreenowexpensive. She was INCREDIBLE!!! He had the most beautiful gaits, … when he wasn’t bucking, leaping, rearing, or levading. She…just…sat…there like he was walking quietly on the buckle. No look of fear or surprise, just quiet and calm and just kept riding. He is a gorgeous horse.

[SpongeBobSquarePants]

It will be certainly very interesting to see what the KWPN jury does with a hunter stallion who was presented for the regular book in the manner of a show hunter. I can’t remember that being done in previous years, but again so much has changed recently with the KWPN it is hard to keep up. :winkgrin:

While he certainly has the ‘oooh, look, shiney’ prettiness of a sparkly sabeeno, he looks downright obese in those photos. :no:

I have never understood why they hunter people like their horses so obese. I would think it would lead to some longterm unsoundness issues from carrying the extra weigh over fences.

Can anyone tell me how many horses are generally in the division(s?) that Popeye shows in? Are they huge divisions?

[tom]

reality check

@SpongeBobSquarePants;1865663

It will be certainly very interesting to see what the KWPN jury does with a hunter stallion who was presented for the regular book in the manner of a show hunter.

The KWPN simply cannot approve a hunter stallion for the riding horse (RP) section of the studbook (where showjumping and dressage sires go).

For a stallion the age of this one to be approved for the RP section of the studbook, he should be an international grand prix horse; ideally he would be a successful nations cup/world cup/European Championship/Olympic etc. horse. Hunter classes, no matter how many and how advanced, cannot be a substitute.

The best hunters are good-looking horses with excellent rideability that make a bascule over the small fences they jump but are not required to exhibit the scope and technique in the shoulders and front legs that international showjumpers tend to have: a hunter’s landing gear usually does not go up. Hunters also do not display the technique with their hindlegs that many excellent international showjumpers exhibit. Hunters, although correct movers, lack the elasticity that many of us look for in showjumping (and, of course, dressage) sires.

The KWPN has climbed out on the slippery slope of “hunter breeding” because is is a vast market in the USA. But I cannot envision the stallion inspectors approving for the RP studbook stallions that lack the scope, technique, and elasticity required for international showjumping.

These comments are not meant as criticism of the stallion. He is a hunter and a very successful competitor. From what I know of the horse he certainly deserves to be approved for the HUNTER section of the KWPN studbook … but definitely not the RP section.

[Harold]

If Obediah is still ridden by Karen Karkow (and I’d be very suprised if he’s not) she is an incredible rider. She mainly does dressage now, I think, but has one of the most accurate eyes for a jump I’ve seen ! She’s known Buddy since he was foaled and she is one of the best trainers of young horses I know. A really good horseperson and a terrific person to boot!

[Spoilsport]

Oh, I wish I could have been there. Please, someone post the results when they are available.

I’m a Tommy Serio fan from way, way back :). As a hunter-jumper rider transplanted to a mostly dressage barn, I’ve been chuckling at some of the comments here :lol: :lol: :lol: ! When I look at the photos, I can just imagine the look :eek: :eek: :eek: on the dressage fanatics’ faces!

[SGray]

@CBoylen;1865232

No one was interested in changing Popeye’s training in order to do one dressage test. They’re either going to take him as he is or not. He’s a hunter, he’s trained like a hunter, and you don’t fix what’s not broken. He’s perfectly trained to do his job. That’s why Tommy did the test and not a dressage rider. No one has ridden the horse other than Tommy in the four years he’s been in the barn, other than Rachel hacking him once. And no, none of us have payed any attention to dressage, it’s not our discipline. Tommy practiced the test as much as his schedule allowed, and adapted Popeye’s way of going as much as he though suitable and not detrimental to the horse’s real career.

as long as they are satisfied with approval for the hunter book that is fine ---- everyone would understand not wanting to mess with his success

Buuuuuut - if they wanted approvals for the main book then wouldn’t they want to present him in the manner that would be most likely to gain said approval? would it not be a disservice to the horse to do otherwise?

[sixpoundfarm]

I would have to agree with Tom, the jury should judge what they see when they see it, against the standards set for the rest of the breeding population.

The horse is an individual, and he is what he is. The owners and trainers have found his suitabilty, and have done well with him in their chosen discipline. It reminded me of the statement in another thread of how boring things would be if we all liked the same type of horse. To each his own.
Is he the perfect match for every mare owner wanting to produce a hunter? Probably not, but I doubt there is a stallion out there that can fit that bill.

There are several rather defensive posts on this thread in regards to some honest criticism.
Unfortunatley, we are unable to discuss the good and the bad of stallions here in this country. I think this does breeders a dis-service, as if we are unaware of negatives, how are we to breed a better sporthorse and not reproduce those negatives?

Regardless, kudos to the owners for taking the time to present him and seek approvals for his offspring. Encouraging to see that not all ‘hunter/jumper’ people dont care about approvals and papers.

[Lynnwood]

Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt the hunter stallion Pinschallah the 1st stallion approved by the kwpn in NA. He was a grand prix jumper before bing imported to the US. But in the US he was a fabulous hunter just like Popeye K . Im pretty sure he was riden by Rodney Jenkins back when he rode hunters.

I know he was approved into the mane book based on his career as a hunter and sport horse sire. Our mare is by him and has full papers and is out of a TB.

Popeye K is at the top of his game kwpn or not. Is it really that important how dressagey his frame was for his IBOP pointing out he was the only stallion to complete both parts. I think he desreves kudos and utmost respect as well as Tommy for sticking there you know whats out and showing the jury what a top hunter looks like dressage or not!!

[vandenbrink]

I’ve seen Popeye in a more dressagey frame and he looked very good, but much more slender then his latest photos:) Boy…hunter trainers sure like them round.

I was at his CW stallion performance test as a 4 year old. Even at that time it was evident he had only ever had a hunter ride. The Performance test requires test riders to get on for them so he went in a more dressagey frame under a dressage and event rider and he looked a little confused at first, but handled it fine. I think he had 5 very different riders on him within 2 days…GASP!! He handled it very well, and did well at the performance test with the best jumping scores at the test.

I can understand not wanting to mess up his training, so I suspect the main goal in this case would be to enter him in the hunter book. That is what he is …and that where his market is.

[CBoylen]

@SpongeBobSquarePants;1865663

While he certainly has the ‘oooh, look, shiney’ prettiness of a sparkly sabeeno, he looks downright obese in those photos. :no:
I have never understood why they hunter people like their horses so obese. I would think it would lead to some longterm unsoundness issues from carrying the extra weigh over fences.
Can anyone tell me how many horses are generally in the division(s?) that Popeye shows in? Are they huge divisions?

Popeye is at the appropriate weight for a conformation hunter. He’s not any fatter than any other horse in the barn, actually. It’s the accepted body type for the discipline, and to be under the type would be detrimental to his success. We don’t see any weight-related soundness issues.

The 4’ regular conformation division that Popeye shows in is generally small, but at the larger shows is very competitive in talent. It is unfortunate that the division has lost popularity in the last decade. However, at many shows it is combined with the green conformation division, so Popeye has the opportunity to compete against different horses and a larger field. He’s also consistently the top or close to the top scorer for the show at the WCHR shows, out of all the divisions. The majority of competitors will tell you that he is one of the best, if not the best, horse showing at the shows right now, regardless of division. To that purpose, it’s really his rounds that matter more than his record on paper, so while it would be nice to see him show in a larger division, it doesn’t have any effect on his reputation within the discipline. The 4’ working division is generally as small if not smaller, and Popeye is the model winner, so doing the regular conformation is really the best option for him.

[spacely]

@sixpoundfarm;1865816

Is he the perfect match for every mare owner wanting to produce a hunter? Probably not, but I doubt there is a stallion out there that can fit that bill.

Not Popeye, but I can think of a few SO’s on this BB that seem to think their boy is a perfect match for every mare. Whether it be dressage, jumpers, hunters or eventers…:winkgrin:

[LLDM]

Regardless of what frame he was in, who rode him, or what studbook is appropriate - I am just very glad he was presented. And I appreciate that his owners made the effort to do so.

Popeye K is successful in our most popular discipline here in the US. I am sure his breeding shed booking are not lacking even without the stallion approvals. But he is a product of the Dutch warmblood breeding program and I think it is “right” that he is officially part of their system.

To me, it is a matter of respect - all the way around.

FWIW - it is not the training, nor the riding the inspectors should be looking at. It is the natural abilities (and trainability) that are likely to be passed on.

How happy would we all be if the training itself were passed through the blood? :lol:

SCFarm

[CBoylen]

Popeye K is successful in our most popular discipline here in the US. I am sure his breeding shed booking are not lacking even without the stallion approvals. But he is a product of the Dutch warmblood breeding program and I think it is “right” that he is officially part of their system.

I agree.
And I believe you are correct that the approval would be unlikely to affect his bookings, at least in numbers. His book has been full and many mares turned away for at least the past two years.