Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[KaraAD]

[QUOTE=CBoylen;1865843]
The 4’ regular conformation division that Popeye shows in is generally small, but at the larger shows is very competitive in talent. It is unfortunate that the division has lost popularity in the last decade. However, at many shows it is combined with the green conformation division, so Popeye has the opportunity to compete against different horses and a larger field. He’s also consistently the top or close to the top scorer for the show at the WCHR shows, out of all the divisions. The majority of competitors will tell you that he is one of the best, if not the best, horse showing at the shows right now, regardless of division. To that purpose, it’s really his rounds that matter more than his record on paper, so while it would be nice to see him show in a larger division, it doesn’t have any effect on his reputation within the discipline. The 4’ working division is generally as small if not smaller, and Popeye is the model winner, so doing the regular conformation is really the best option for him.[/QUOTE]

Also, as Chanda mentioned, before hunters get to the 4’ foot division (either working or confirmation) they compete in the Green Confirmations or 1st Year Hunter at 3’6" and 2nd Year Hunter at 3’9". The 3’6" and 3’9" divisions that the Working horses do on their way up to the Workings can be quite large (except for some of the top shows, like Devon, where only the top X qualify/ are invited). Many many horses that start out in these professional divisions stop before they get to the 4’ Workings and become A/O horses (and stay at 3’6") - some because the price is right but many because while they may do very well at 3’6", it takes a very special horse to make 4’ look effortless. While the Working divisions aren’t huge, they are, especially at the big shows, the absolute best of the best for hunters.

[avery]

As a horse, Popeye K is solid gold, molded into perfect hunter form. I’d take that over a silver horse, molded into imperfect dressage form any day. Style can be changed by trainers/riders. Substance is something a horse is born with; it’s in the genes. I hope the inspectors put substance before style.

Why I’d choose Popeye K the Hunter Horse as My Dressage Horse

Popeye K has mastered the fundamentals of the dressage training scale that many experienced dressage horses have not, which should allow him to eventually progress further than most in his training. Relaxation is just one. Suppleness is another. Impulsion from behind and the top. He is a “happy athlete.” His ears and ears are alert, while his lips, nostrils, and tail are not at all tense. Those qualities make him a champion.

I compared the dressage trot photos from the 3 stallions. Popeye’s topline is rounded, not roached. Popeye (like any hunter) and the dark bay don’t seem to engage their hocks as much as the chestnut, but Popeye still makes a clean track because he is so engaged at the stifle. The chestnut doing the dressage big money trot…behind the bit and the verticle. But it’s just one photo at one moment. I’m not accusing the chestnut’s trainer of using rollkur or even skipping the basics. The horse might be having a nervous day, but approval day is judgement day. If I idealized very collected, stiff, horses with flashy gaits and nervous tails, I’d still be riding saddleseat. The dark bay does have the best natural freedom in the shoulder, but Popeye’s rider/frame isn’t in the best position to allow that to happen.

But if you’re still not convinced: Look at Popeye’s canter photo and look at his back leg and look at his reach under himself and his rider!!! That is Grand Prix reach without the Grand Prix frame and the Grand Prix rider.

[Underdog]

Tom

"For a stallion the age of this one to be approved for the RP section of the studbook, he should be an international grand prix horse; ideally he would be a successful nations cup/world cup/European Championship/Olympic etc. horse. Hunter classes, no matter how many and how advanced, cannot be a substitute.

The best hunters are good-looking horses with excellent rideability that make a bascule over the small fences they jump but are not required to exhibit the scope and technique in the shoulders and front legs that international showjumpers tend to have: a hunter’s landing gear usually does not go up. Hunters also do not display the technique with their hindlegs that many excellent international showjumpers exhibit. Hunters, although correct movers, lack the elasticity that many of us look for in showjumping (and, of course, dressage) sires"

When you crunch the numbers…how many ppl ride GP level in the end? Really…how many? not to mention how many have deep pockets to get there. Personally…I look for a great all rounder that a kid can handle in the end, or us 40+ something riders that don’t want to get jumped out of the irons. I think the demand/market here is larger for a horse to fill those shoes. And I think it’s more realistic.

[MagicRoseFarm]

I heard ( RUMOR) his xrays were clean, and his scores were wonderful.The owner may not choose the actual numbers to be public knowledge at this time…buti thought they were dang good

[2Dogs]

It is diffucult to be a contrarian on this board, particulary with a conceived superstar, a popular stallion and a popular connected person, but, heck , I am in the mood. I have seen Popeye K on several occasions and believe he is a horse made great by a great rider. I do not love his movement, think he is thick and believe his jump is created in part by the brilliant ride of Mr. Serio. So flame suit on, but there are many other hunter stallions I would pick above this stallion, but that is my opinion, and only my opinion.

[Riva]

I think that Popeye and Tommy Serio did a really good job. Maybe the test could’ve been practiced a bit more, but I think they did the right thing not messing with his training (now that I’ve thought about it after reading all the comments). He is very successful and I wouldn’t want to mess with that if he was mine, either. Rachel Spenser is very nice and I think it was a great thing that she brought him. As a Voltaire son, does anyone know why he wasn’t registered with the KWPN-NA (or NA/WPN as it was) when he was a foal?

Avery…don’t know if this helps in your comparison, but here is another shot of Obadiah that I got. I really liked him…airs above ground and all. And, yes, I have to agree that his rider was amazing. I don’t think I could’ve been that unflappable!

[shoos]

I think it’s great he was presented and he is very successful in the ring.
Congrats, it sounds like was well presented by the observers comments.

I have to see more foals by him out of different mares though, it’s hard to judge what line to cross him best with? He is large boned, as 2dogs stated, and curious if a TB/WB cross or a larger boned TB would be the best cross with him? Are there undersaddle offspring people have pictures of? I would love to see more mature offspring photos and the bloodlines of the dam side. He’s one to watch for the future. Call me chicken, but offspring crosses are a big deal for me deciding breeding crosses.

[HSGF]

2 dogs you seem to be in the mood a lot lately… as I recall you did not like Escapade either?

Popeye always showed great talent even at an early age…I have a video of him doing the CWBHA stallion inspection as a 4 year old and he had the same style over the jumps, they were just smaller in height and no Mr.Serio was not even in the picture yet.
I do agree… Popeye crosses best with a finer mare with a good trot…but no stallion can correct or pass on everything!

I respect other people’s taste in stallions just because I happen to not like a certain stallion and believe me there are many…I would prefer not to be ignorant to the people that have bred their mares to him or have offspring by that particular stallion.

If we all liked and bred our mares to the same stallion there would be a huge problem.
Popeye has produce so far awesome young Champion conformation line horses and they are now showing promise in the A show ring’s due to their ages…oldest being 5 they are just starting their career.

I would breed my mare again to him without question!!

Go Popeye!

[Tiki]

Riva, even though your pictures are fabulous, you haven’t captured the ‘essence’ of Obadiah. He was incredible, ‘airs’ and all. He just flowed and glowed. He used his body so well and showed so much grace. I think he looks a little ‘compacted’ in the photos because he was so naughty in the ring, but at the same time he had so much reach, power and grace in person that I really enjoyed watching him.

[HSGF]

Shoos here is a picture of my Popeye mare last year as a 3 year old http://pets.webshots.com/album/414926948tpihdG She won the CSHA Tripple Crown series last year and was unbeatable in her conformation/line division last year. She was top year end Canadian Sport horse (line show’s) and came 3rd out of 58 enteries in the 3 year old under saddle Cup class.

Here is also a picture of her full brother as a 2 year old winning his 2 year old class at the Royal last year. http://pets.webshots.com/album/550451413exewfZ
He is also doing excellent showing on the line this year and like his sister has been Grand Champion at the last 2 shows. His under saddle training is also going excellent and he is really starting to turn heads. Both my Popeye babies have been a joy to work with/around and their temperments have been wonderful.

There are a few people on this board that have BEAUTIFUL Popeye babies…maybe they will see this thread and post more pic’s for you.
One of my Fav’s is Chef’s colt PJ…he is STUNNING!

I will try to get some more recent pictures of both of them to put in my webshots. I will make sure there are some under saddle pictures too!

There Mom is a lighter boned full tb (Briarticxx/Dawn Flightxx) and is currently in foal to Voltaire. We will however repeat The Popeye cross with her again next year.

[tom]

@Underdog;1866001

When you crunch the numbers…how many ppl ride GP level in the end? Really…how many? not to mention how many have deep pockets to get there. Personally…I look for a great all rounder that a kid can handle in the end, or us 40+ something riders that don’t want to get jumped out of the irons. I think the demand/market here is larger for a horse to fill those shoes. And I think it’s more realistic.

Underdog, hunters are a huge and important market in the US but, in the final analysis, most top hunters are jumpers that do not have the scope or technique required for a career as an international showjumper and most top hunters are correct moving horses that do not have the elasticity and natural athleticim required for maximum collection to be an international dressage horse.

The fact that you and thousands of others like to ride the kind of horse that this stallion is has no bearing on the KWPN studbook’s goal of being the #1 studbook for producing international showjumpers and the #1 studbook for producing international dressage horses. To approve a successful hunter stallion such as this for the RP section of the studbook would cause a rebellion in the Netherlands.

The whole idea of a “hunter studbook” that approves stallions is extremely suspect to me. The KWPN is promoting the breeding of horses that lack scope, proper technique, and elasticity…and they are doing this purely for the cash. It will be interesting to see if horses like this stallion that have been genetically-designed to jump with scope, proper techique, and elasticity can become sires that consistently pass on sub-optimal attributes in all three categories.

It would be like the Jockey Club starting a studbook for stallions that failed at the track because most people don’t like to gallop at 40 mph!

[bingbingbing]

Can anyone tell me how many horses are generally in the division(s?) that Popeye shows in? Are they huge divisions? I didn’t see an answer to this with actual numbers, at WEF there were 3-8 horses in Popeye’s division.

The whole idea of a “hunter studbook” that approves stallions is extremely suspect to me. The KWPN is promoting the breeding of horses that lack scope, proper technique, and elasticity…and they are doing this purely for the cash. It will be interesting to see if horses like this stallion that have been geneticially-designed to jump with scope, proper techique, and elasticity can become sires that consistently pass on sub-optimal attributes in all three categories.

I agree. The whole idea of dummying down the requirements to approve hunter stallions is definitely “suspect”. It is, IMO not neccesary. We are still buying plane loads of hunters from Europe. They are bred by a system which has not made concessions for hunters. Yet they still are out breeding us.

[tom]

bingbingbing, the fact that Europe is “outbreeding” the USA in hunters is a function of two things, I think.

First, numbers. Many more horses are bred in Europe than in the USA. Every sport horse studbook creates each year a percentage of horses that will possess the attributes of successful hunters. That fact that so many foals are produced each year in Europe means that many hunter prospects will be produced. Yes, breeders and studbooks in Europe don’t make “concessions” to produce hunters – I know of not a single breeder or studbook in Europe that is trying to breed hunters. But hunters are a valuable part of the residual after the showjumpers and dressage prospects are gleaned.

Second, the focus on rideability in stallion selection. Approximately 1/3 of the stallion performance test index score is derived from assessments of the stallion’s rideability and trainability. Many prospects that do not have the scope, technique, or eleasticity to become a top showjumper or the elasticity and ability to collect to become a top dressage horse have the basic athleticism, rideability and trainability to become successful hunters.

The KWPN’s hunter studbook is a poor decision. But its leaders know that US breeders love the mare “approvals” (even though mares do not have to be “approved” to enter the KWPN studbook!) and foal inspections (even though foals do not have to be “inspected” to enter the KWPN studbook!), and there is a lot of money to be made from these activities. I believe sport horse breeding is better served by focusing on the Olympic disciplines and steering the good horses that don’t have the requisite aptitude for the Olympic disciplines toward the hunter market.

I would like to know what happens if a KWPN hunter breeder produces a filly sired by a “hunter sire” only approved for the hunter studbook and later on breeds that filly to a showjumping sire. Can that foal be entered into the RP studbook (the KWPN’s Riding Horse studbook for dressage and showjumping horses)? If so, the KWPN is encouraging the entry into its main RP studbook mares that do not possess the genetics most associated with the organization’s strategic goals – dominating the WBFSH rankings in showjumping and dressage.

[pwynnnorman]

@sixpoundfarm;1865816

I
There are several rather defensive posts on this thread in regards to some honest criticism.

Unfortunatley, we are unable to discuss the good and the bad of stallions here in this country. I think this does breeders a dis-service, as if we are unaware of negatives, how are we to breed a better sporthorse and not reproduce those negatives?

Hear, hear!!! :yes: :yes:

Speaking of which…

While he certainly has the ‘oooh, look, shiney’ prettiness of a sparkly sabeeno, he looks downright obese in those photos. :no:

I have never understood why they hunter people like their horses so obese. I would think it would lead to some longterm unsoundness issues from carrying the extra weigh over fences.

Yeah, I was kinda surprised by his look in the photos, too. Not the hunter type I grew up with, that’s for sure (at least not in the photos–I’m not saying he’s not different in better weight or whatever). Those shots make him look like an overgrown pony to my eyes. And, IMO, definitely not the “traditional” type of typeline, especially the front end (head and neck). Oh, well, we all know TB-typiness is no longer the hunter standard, boo-hoo.

We don’t see any weight-related soundness issues.

WHAT! You must be kidding or “sport-blind,” madam–and with all due respect for your history in the sport. There are a TON Of weight related issues constantly being struggled with in tons of hunter barns from founder to joint problems. And, no, I’m hardly talking just ponies! Sheesh, CBoylen, I’m really shocked.

Meanwhile, though, history certainly has solidly proven that stallions with all the right incredients PLUS chrome (like Alla C/zar before PopeyeK) are the ones which really make the waves. He’s a sabino, yes? So he should throw it pretty consistently.

I’m really looking forward to seeing him in the flesh this winter.

Oh, oh! I must add something. I hope the US-branch (???) of the KWPN makes the hunter thing work AND then uses the extra funds to initiate a better performance tracking system in this country.

[Cartier]

[QUOTE=tom;1866622]
Underdog, hunters are a huge and important market in the US but, in the final analysis, most top hunters are jumpers that do not have the scope or technique required for a career as an international showjumper and most top hunters are correct moving horses that do not have the elasticity and natural athleticim required for maximum collection to be an international dressage horse.

The fact that you and thousands of others like to ride the kind of horse that this stallion is has no bearing on the KWPN studbook’s goal of being the #1 studbook for producing international showjumpers and the #1 studbook for producing international dressage horses. To approve a successful hunter stallion such as this for the RP section of the studbook would cause a rebellion in the Netherlands.

The whole idea of a “hunter studbook” that approves stallions is extremely suspect to me. The KWPN is promoting the breeding of horses that lack scope, proper technique, and elasticity…and they are doing this purely for the cash. It will be interesting to see if horses like this stallion that have been geneticially-designed to jump with scope, proper techique, and elasticity can become sires that consistently pass on sub-optimal attributes in all three categories.

It would be like the Jockey Club starting a studbook for stallions that failed at the track because most people don’t like to gallop at 40 mph![/QUOTE]
Tom,

You make some very important points in the quoted post and in your response to bingbingbing - post #73, which will soon be lost here (and are arguably off topic, so perhaps that is appropriate in the context of this thread). There are some serious issues facing American breeders looming on the horizon, which will impact us for generations to come. We would benefit from a forum that focused exclusively on intelligent informed discussion of these kinds of issues.
-Elaine

[tom]

Elaine,

Thanks. I’m happy to discuss these issues within this thread or in a new one. I do think they are important issues for US and European breeders.

Tom

[Cartier]

Tom
You have a PM.
Elaine

[ise]

Avery - when stallions are presented for approval the judging is not one stallion compared to the other stallions presented. It’s EACH stallion to the standards. It’s not a comparative evaluation.

If a stallion is being presented for the stallion book - I certainly want them judged as tough as possible for the licensing. Each stallion should be judged against the standard for each score he is given at the stallion licensing. What they have done in performance is a completely SEPARATE issue and not part of the scoring.

If a stallion isn’t moving over the back and engaged at the trot - that’s what they score - what they see on that day.

[Riva]

Tiki… I do know that I didn’t capture Obadiah as well as I could have. As I’ve said, I really liked him. I was in a conversation while trying to shoot pics of him and missed all the good airs-above-ground. Not to mention, sometimes photos just can’t replace being there. I will definitely be looking at Obadiah in the future

[shoos]

@pwynnnorman;1866678

WHAT! You must be kidding or “sport-blind,” madam–and with all due respect for your history in the sport. There are a TON Of weight related issues constantly being struggled with in tons of hunter barns from founder to joint problems. And, no, I’m hardly talking just ponies! Sheesh, CBoylen, I’m really shocked.

This comment surprised me as well. Extra weight can cause unsoundness issues. That’s a no brainer.

HSGH, really nice filly. He thru a LOT of substance on your mare. Good information to know. Would love to see them under saddle, thanks for sharing. Do you have a photo of your mare? Looks like a good nick.