Popeye K @ KWPN inspection?

[siegi_b]

Tom,

just a little clarification…
Foals do not have to be inspected - that’s correct. hey will be in the FOALBOOK regardless. However, they will need to be inspected before they are included in the STUDBOOK, something that happens at age three or later.

Foal inspections in my mind give the breeders an opportunity to get an independent opinion of their stock, something that can help prevent the ever popular “barn blindness” in this country.

The Hunter Horse Division of the KWPN-NA will give breeders and riders the chance to track Dutch bloodlines that are successful in the sport. Hunter riders typically don’t care about a horse’s background, but you and I know how important it is to have that information in order to be able to breed for the traits necessary to be good in any discipline. Hunters are a huge part of the horse economy in this country, and to ignore them would not be a good business decision.

[fish]

All I have to say is that it would be really nice if you registry people would decide whether you want hunters in your books or not. If you do, it would seem pretty ridiculous to down grade Popeye K because his connections have elected to present him as he is rather than make him “dressagey” (a characteristic which would get him downgraded in the hunter ring) for a single event which will affect his career not one iota. If you decide you don’t want hunters in your registries-- which is definitely the way it’s looked for many years-- I, for one, would really appreciate it if you’d stop criticizing and complaining about the owners of well-bred, highly successful hunter stallions who appeal to you but have not been presented at approvals. In like manner, if you’re going to fault hunters for not showing at approvals a carriage and style of movement which is undesireable in their own arena, it would be nice if you also stopped complainting about people shopping for hunters because they don’t show much respect for “premiums” and other awards given out at inspections.

As things stand, I don’t know how hunter people can avoid feeling “damned if they do, and damned if they don’t” when it comes to dealing with a lot of registry representatives.

P.S.-- edited to add: Seigi, how can the Dutch (or any other registry) track what bloodlines are successful in the hunters when no one has established a database tracking the show results?

[CBoylen]

@pwynnnorman;1866678

Hear, hear!!! :yes: :yes:
WHAT! You must be kidding or “sport-blind,” madam–and with all due respect for your history in the sport. There are a TON Of weight related issues constantly being struggled with in tons of hunter barns from founder to joint problems. And, no, I’m hardly talking just ponies! Sheesh, CBoylen, I’m really shocked.

I said we don’t see any weight-related issues. And we don’t. Popeye is as sound as a horse can be. On that same note, Rox Dene was probably fatter than he is throughout her career, she was constantly on a diet to keep her from being over-plump, and she jumped two divisions for six years straight without ever taking a lame step or injecting any joints.
We don’t have any more soundness issues in our barn than jumper barns or dressage barns, or anything that isn’t just related to being a sporthorse in general. I think the same is true for most top hunter barns.
It is possible for a horse to keep a hunter body type and stay sound and at the optimum fitness level for his job. They don’t have to be as fit as a jumper or event horse, but to jump well and round and high they need to have a level of fitness.

[Justbay1]

I was glad to see Popeye presented and have seen him many times in person. He will be an asset to the KWPN whether in the Main book or the Hunter book. I don’t feel like commenting on his testing from a few photos posted on a BB at Iron Springs since I was not there, but I did want to point out, especially for those interested in Olympic discipline bloodlines and “paper”, that Popeye K has some great blood flowing in his veins being by Voltaire and out of a mare by L Ronald, who was by the great G Ramiro Z, and out of a Farn dam. Farn was also the sire of the VDL’s Nimmerdor and Wolfgang. I think you find many of these names in top show jumpers and dressage horses such as Olympic Ferro.

Here is some more info on Farn:
http://www.capriolefarm.com/reference.php?id=5

[ise]

I don’t believe that a top hunter stallion (performance and breeding) cannot work in a dressage frame. The stallion Ragtime is a good example. He is an extremely successful hunter and hunter producer but at the 100 Day stallion testing - his work undersaddle with both bereiters and guest riders (all dressage riders) was exemplary. He was extremely talented with respect to responding to various disciplines.

So to somehow say that because Popeye K is a fabulous hunter but being ridden in by a dressage rider in a dressage frame would ruin him - doesn’t hold water for me.

As I read this thread I understood he was being presented for FULL licensing - not just HUNTER licensing. If that wasn’t the case - then I’m sure he did was required for the hunters.

[tom]

Siegi,

Why is it important for a filly (or a colt) to be in the studbook rather than the foalbook. It makes no difference whatsoever. A foalbook mare can be bred to produce a foalbook foal.

Foal inspections can be helpful for novice breeders, I agree.

Your point about breeding for traits is precisely the problem. Does one really want to breed for sub-optimal scope, sub-optimal techique in the front (landing gear that don’t go up), sub-optimal technique in the back, and lack of elasticity in movement? I don’t think so.

Successful hunters should be viewed as “happy accidents” – good-looking and athletic horses that are just not good enough for top showjumpering or dressage careers. I think one is destined for grief to actually breed with the aim of producing hunters.

If I am correct that when breeding with the goal of producing international showjumpers or dressage horses a portion of the residual not good enough to be international horses will be horses with apititude for the hunter ring then what is the residual in hunter breeding? Are international showjumpers and dressage horses the residual? I think not; those would be “ecstatic accidents”! I assert the residual will be horses with even less jump and even less elastic movement then the hunter parents have that are used in the hunter breeding program.

I am not for ignoring hunters. Rather I do not like the fact that a studbook to which I belong and register a lot of foals is chasing the cash rather than pursuing sound breeding policies.

Tom

[carosello]

They don’t have to be as fit as a jumper or event horse, but to jump well and round and high they need to have a level of fitness.

As a total outside looking in who is ignorant about most of the Hunter lingo that has been throw around…after seeing the photo’s I though he was a retired horse. To my eye he looks too fat and not muscular to be in what I thought would be “show shape”. I guess I was wrong :eek:

I think that Popeye and Tommy Serio did a really good job. Maybe the test could’ve been practiced a bit more, but I think they did the right thing not messing with his training

How would a little dressage test ruin his training? I thought DRESSAGE meant training…and was good for ALL horses? What would be bad about it?

Popeye K is successful in our most popular discipline here in the US. I am sure his breeding shed booking are not lacking even without the stallion approvals. But he is a product of the Dutch warmblood breeding program and I think it is “right” that he is officially part of their system.

I agree also. Glad to see someone in the Hunters may be interested in papers for their foals. So many times on this board you hear people are not.

[Justbay1]

IBOP Test (flat-work portion)

Here is the IBOP test and how it is scored below. It looks to be a Training Level test to me, and I would not expect a horse to be required to be “in a frame”, but rather to be allowed some length of neck. I see no collection being asked for in this test when I glanced at it. Dressage peeps can correct me if I am wrong. Interesting that it is titled “flat work portion for Riding Horses” not Dressage test for Riding Horses.

IBOP Test (flat-work portion) for Riding Horses

Enter at A at a working trot
Between D and X walk, ant between X and G halt and salute
Move forwards in working trot. Track right at C
MBFA working trot
A, serpentine three loops finishing at C
C track right. From M to K change rein at medium trot
K working trot
Between A and F walk
F to H change rein at free walk
H medium walk. C working trot
B working canter -circle right 20 diameter
BFAK working canter
K to H medium canter
H working canter
Between C and M working trot
MBFAK working trot
K to M change the rein at medium trot
M working trot
MCHE working trot
E working trot-circle let 20m diameter, allowing the horse to stretch neck
EKA working trot
A medium walk
B working trot
Between M and C working canter left
H to K medium canter
K to A working canter
Between A and F working trot
Between M and C walk
H to F change the rein in free walk
A down the center line and between D and X halt and salute

At the request of the jury certain parts of the test may be repeated.

The IBOP test will be scored as follows:

Dressage
a. quality of the walk
b. quality of the trot
c. quality of the canter
d. talent as a dressage horse (2x)

[siegi_b]

Fish - I have never said that Popeye K had to be a dressage horse in order to be approved for the Hunter division, and I also don’t think that you will find that in the KWPN-NA rules. Just because some posters think he should doesn’t make it necessarily so…

Tom - I don’t believe that you would be happy with Foalbook mares? Remember, it’s almost an unwritten requirement for the dam of a stallion prospect to have some kind of predicate and also come from a mareline that’s not lacking in them. So no, you don’t HAVE to present your fillies for studbook, but I would consider that a rather shortsighted view.

As far as good hunters being a “by-product” of standard breeding goes… well, yes that’s the way it’s been handled by the European breeders thus far. Here in the US however, breeding specifically for hunter qualities is considered a speciality. Just ask Trish Quirk who owns several well-known hunter stallions and is quite active in the showing of their offspring. I also submit to you that as a European you may not have quite the full understanding of what makes a good or great hunter. In addition to the performance classes there are also huge hunter breeding classes, with Devon, Upperville, etc. at the forefront. I would recommend you attend a few of those in order to get a better understanding of the discipline.

Also, just because a Hunter has been put into the Hunter Book of the KWPN-NA doesn’t mean that all breeding for hunters will only occur within that division. Breeders, with the advice of judges, will be able to designate which of their foals go in what book.

Specialization has been implemented, and as much as you may or may not agree with it, consider the Hunter Book simply an addition to the Jumper and Dressage books in this country.

Any other justifications will have to come from somebody more knowledgable when it comes to hunters. As it is, I may have already stepped on several toes with some of my statements regarding that subject.

[tom]

Siegi,

I do not judge the value of my horses by predicates and which book they are put in (foalbook versus studbook). The only predicate that really matters to me is Prestatie – the rest is window-dressing. In any case, for me to chase these things I would have to ship my foals and youngsters to the Netherlands or the UK, where inspections are done. But as I wrote in an email to a COTH poster here in Ireland who asked if I’d be interested in bringing foals to KWPN inspections here in Ireland, my reply was “no”. Logistically it would be a nightmare for me (20 foals this year) plus I am not sure what the value added would be for me. I know my stallions and my motherlines better than any judge could.

You are perfectly correct: “in this country” – the USA. Don’t expect to see a KWPN hunter studbook in the Netherlands anytime this century. Why don’t KWPN breeders in the USA wonder why there is no hunter studbook in the Netherlands?

If breeding specifically for hunter qualities is a specialty, why are almost ALL the leading “hunter sires” and “hunter breeding sires” in the USEF rankings classically-bred (for showjumping or dressage) sires, many of which are very popular showjumping or dressage sires? Hunters are residuals. Valuable residuals, but residuals nevertheless. In a hunter breeeding program, what do you expect the residuals to be? International showjumping and dressage competitors?

BTW, last time I checked I still had US citizenship!

Tom

[cherham]

To answer a question posted about two pages ago Popeke K was foaled in Canada and registered and approved for breeding with both the Canadian Sport Horse Association and the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association. Both of these organizations are full members of the WBFSH.

The owners of the stallion had no desire to register with a European registry (including a North American counterpart) and so chose to retain his Canadian citizenship by registering and approving Popeye with the two Canadian sport horse breeding associations instead.

I might also add that one of the breeders and past owners of Popeke K is the National President of the Canadian Sport Horse Association.

[fish]

#1-- no one ever said it would “ruin” Popeye (or any other horse) to be ridden in a dressage frame. Personally, I like to cross train my horses and have been known to show the same horse in dressage and hunters in the same month. In these days of increasing specialization, however, I do not think that kind of cross training should be mandatory for approvals-- if it becomes so, I think the dressage and jumper stallions should be expected to show and be graded for their talents as hunters as well in order to keep a level playing field for that general stud book (or whatever it’s called). I wasn’t present at the approvals, but from the posts here, I have the impression that Popeye K was the only stallion of the 3 presented who actually performed in a calm, professional manner all phases of the tests. This is the sort of thing one expects of a show hunter. I hope he was given good marks for it. Although I do, as I said above, believe in and practice cross-training, I can also see where trying to put Popeye into a modern “dressage frame” and show “engagement” (let alone “brilliance”) for the purposes of this one event definitely could have compromised his calm, professional, hunterly attitude and demeanor. As someone else said, that test was supposed to have been very elementary-- like training level, where engagement, etc. is not supposed to be required. As any of us know who’ve shown training level (or attended inspections), however, there is little doubt that horses showing more “advanced” frames (usually regardless of tension) tend to place higher than those who don’t. I fully understand why and how the owners of any good hunter would not want to start playing that game.
#2) On the weight issue: Perhaps Popeye K and many other conformation hunters are “overweight.” I know I’ve read that Popeye is frequently put on a diet because he is an easy keeper. Nonetheless, as Chandra points out, he, and all the others showing week after week remain remarkably sound. IMO this has a lot to do with the fact that they do have excellent “conformation”: well-balanced horses with good toplines and correct legs (please let us emphasize correct legs) happen to stand up a whole lot better under stress --including carrying weight over course after course of 4’ fences-- than crooked ones. This is one of the reasons why I prefer hunter breed shows over USDF ones: in the latter, flashy movement is given so much precedence over conformation that I’ve seen horses given championships that I wouldn’t expect to withstand training given the weakness of their underpinnings. If I were breeding for soundness (which I am), I’d select an overweight but successful conformation hunter stallion over a dressage horse any day!

What I’m trying to say here (and thank you for the help, Seigi) is that hunters are NOT just lucrative, but essentially inferior by-products of a system designed to produce dressage horses and jumpers. They are horses that meet the quite rational standards of a different arena and different manner of training which deserves to be understood and respected in its own right. If you cannot and do not respect what the hunters do, I don’t think you should expect to be collecting their/our money at inspections and registrations.

[tom]

@fish;1867002

What I’m trying to say here is that hunters are NOT just lucrative, inferior by-products of a system designed to produce dressage horses and jumpers. They are horses that meet the quite rational standards of a different arena and different manner of training which deserve to be understood and respected in their own right. If you cannot and do not respect what they do, I don’t think you should expect to be collecting their/our money at inspections and registrations.

Fish, I agree completely with hunters must meet rational standards and their training has some different elements. What I am unclear about is why you think they are not residuals of breeding programs focused on showjumping or dressage.

Again, almost all of the top “hunter sires” and “hunter breeding sires” are classically-bred showjumping or dressage sires. Where are the “hunter sires”? Where are the dams that produce hunters but not progeny that can compete with some measure of success in other disciplines? Where is your empirical evidence? Is there a genetic pool of hunter sires and broodmares that consistently produce progeny that compete successfully in the hunter ring but rarely are successful in showjumping or dressage? I think not.

The goal of these arguments is not to “disrespect” hunters or hunter breeders. But we need clarity on the genetic propensity of sires and dams to produce for this sport/discipline. If we cannot differentiate “hunter sires” and “hunter dams” from showjumping and dressage sires then what do we have except residuals? And why is the KWPN approving sires that lack world-class jumping ability/potential or world-class dressage ability/potential?

Tom

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

I think much of what you see in Popeye K is a product of his training. His genetics are there to make a really elasitc mover with a scopy jump. Did he free jump? 5’ with a big spread? What was his testing like in Canada? What are his free gaits like? (Admittedly, his weight will not help in that department). I would probably like to see the Licensing be the same, with the PERFORMANCE requirements being met with Hunter shows for the Hunter book. Hunters DO move VERY elastic. Did Popeye K win the hack in the larger divisions when he was younger? Would his hack photos have been better if his rider was just riding him as he usually does, and not trying to do what hunters think of as dressage? My feeling is he would have been much more impressive in his gaits. Just as Dressage people think Hunters are not elastic movers, and Jumpers think Hunters do not have an athletic jump, Hunter riders think Dressage riders over control their horses. Was his rider going for that “control”?

With a horse of his talent for the hunters, I would certainly not mess with his training. I am a hard core Dressage proponent, but from my knowledge of the Hunters, riding them like a dressage horse - even for a short time can really mess them up. The stallion testings are much worse, cramming the frame, and the rider holding up the front end of a stallion to show off the elevation in the gaits. IMO, there are FEW dressage riders that actually do real dressage. We all preach back to front, but almost every single trainer wants to frame up the front with the HANDS first. They are worried about getting that nose down. THAT is front to back training. The horse should come on the bit by himself from a longer rein, not a shorter one. That is how you tell your training is right. LONG neck. “Framing them up” (boy I HATE that term) can’t be done correctly in a week or so, and this stallion is in the middle of a show season.

Hunters have been extremely fat for decades. They are also the horses that are maintained on bute, sometimes even 2 different drugs to keep them going, and I am NOT talking about performance horses in their early twenties. LOTS of Hunters horses are maintained on drugs before they are 10. :eek: The weight can’t NOT have a large impact on their longterm soundness. Just ask any overweight person. We are NOT athletes! Combine that weight with the hours of longeing done to calm them down, and it is just not fair to the horse. I bet if the Hunter drug committee ruled that Hunters could only be shown on a dose of 1 gram of bute a day, and NO other drugs - esp banamine that can pretty much cover up severe ringbone, I bet you would have a mutiny - even amoungst the committee members :winkgrin:

[pwynnnorman]

I can see the trouble the hunter book concept might cause down the line, but hasn’t it been done before? Don’t the Dutch have a book for the high-steppers and another for the dressage-jumper types? (I’m not sure if it’s the Dutch, but some widely respected registry does. How do they handle crossbreeding?) After all, we live in an age of specialization. Hunters are specialists. I’m not thrilled with how AQHA crosses can do so well in pony hunters these days, but you gotta admit that the AQHA of the right type and step sure has the temperament and flat-knees and autoswap tendencies to be a lot easier on trainers than the TBXs.

And, Fairview, thanks for saying what I would have about the weight issue. It simply cannot be defended, so widely recognized is it…and it’s not the barn’s faults at all. It’s the judging that does nothing about it. All they have to do is knock down the obese ones, once and for all, and show hunters would last a lot longer.

Great point about front to back, too. I heard somewhere about how even those three- and four-year olds being prepped for the big auctions get pulled and lifted into a frame and pushed for the big trot.

[kkj]

Popeye K is fat. Most good hunters are. You do not want a hunter fit like you need a good dressage horse fit or an eventer or jumper. They like them fat, mellow and easy. I worked for a BNT and we did not want the hunters really fit. They need to be quiet and lazy (from a dressage horse perspective) and not so reactive. Most of the riders are total amateurs who pay for the easy ride. That is what sells in the hunters. We would just lightly hack the fancy hunters and keep them mellow but not too fit between shows.

Popeye is an excellent hunter. Lots of people in the US breed specifically for this type and there is a ton of $$ in it. A very fancy young hunter will fetch a lot. The KWPN is smart not to ignore this market. ( I don’t think they should ignore the eventing market either)

I think he should be in the hunter book. He should have been in there a long time ago. We bred two mares to him when he was still up in Canada and before he became famous. They both produced very nice (now 4 years old) hunter types. They are not dressage horses and neither is he. I don’t think he belongs in the main studbook because he is a total hunter and not the dressage or jumper type which the KWPN puts in the main studbook.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Oh and training a horse to do a competitive dressage test can be detrimental to his way of going as a hunter. Sad but true. I rode hunters for years and now do dressage. The hunter needs to be more mellow, fat, even keel, strung out than the dressage horse. If you mess with this too much, you can create a hunter with too many buttons that is too reactive, forward, up etc and this is not what you want in hunters. Jumpers or eq horses benefit from proper dressage to third level more than hunters do. A hunter needs to be the basic mellow super fancy point and shoot variety.

[Lynnwood]

IMHO people take offense to the saying “hunters are residuals left over from the breeding efforst twards dressage and jumpers”; I think for the people who love and appreciate a good hunter with elastic movement and great form and style over fences and is a joy to ride. Saying that their horses are someone elses leftovers is a slap to the face.

30 years ago hunters were mostly TB’s off the track. Hand picked by trainers for their way of going and jumping style. Then like in all things people sat up and took notice of which bloodlines were producing those top TB’s and rather than wait took action twards producing horses speacilized for that job.

Todays hunters are no diffrent people have taken note which WB lines produced nice hunter type consitantly and have worked very hard to reproduce more top shelf hunters. Europe may not have a hunter division but dont blink twice if it were to take off there the horses they used would not be considered residuals of their other programs.

Alot of the horses in todays USA hunter markett are not just Europes regects sent here to do something else. They are horses that people have put alot of time money and thought into creating in the art of producing the perfect hunter horse.

The fact is that some of the top dressage and jumping bloodlines when crossed with others often produce fantastic hunters. Not horses that just would not measure up by other standards. Many of those hunters are capable enough that they could be jumpers or suited to dressage they are just best at being a hunter.

As for Popeye K Im pretty sure that had he been sent for approval prior to his hunter career nobody would be throwing such a fit. He has great form over fences and pleanty of scope. His bloodlines are some of the best out there. Come on people really are you throwing a fit because he doesnt fit the profile of an approved stallion or because he has become such a great hunter stallion. I think its the later.

[tom]

hackinaround,

I don’t read anyone throwing a fit or talking about rejects.

If you seriously think that top hunter competitors usually have ability to be international showjumpers or dressage horses then you need go out and see the kind of fences and courses 4* and 5* international showjumpers are confronted with.

I have no problem with the KWPN approving this stallion for the hunter studbook. In fact, assuming he passes the x-rays and vet exam and progeny inspection, it would be a great thing.

However, I am raising the fundamental question about the wisdom of purposefully trying to create a genetic population of “hunters” by breeding sub-optimal traits into the genetic population of showjumpers and dressage horses. This is unwise and unlikely to be successful, in my opinion.

And I would still like to be hear about the group of hunter sires and dams that are differentiated from showjumping and dressage sires and dams both in their own bloodlines and in what they produce. They don’t exist.

Tom

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

I just wanted to point out that fat does not have as much to do with exercize as with feeding. I have seen plenty of horses that are not fat be easy and mellow. I have also seen fat horses that are hot and reactive.

[ise]

Come on Fairview - not “every single trainer wants to frame up with the hands” as you put it. That’s just an incorrect sweeping statements. And it won’t ruin a HUNTER to be ridden in front of the leg into the bridle for a First Level Dressage Test - if it does - there’s something seriously wrong with the horse.

And registries DO ACCEPT hunter performance for licensed stallions that are going the performance route for lifetime licensing. If Popeye K gets full NAWPN licensing it will be interesting to see that happen - given the many stallions that have been turned down by them over the past decades.