Positive Based Training without using Harsh Collars- Prong, Chain and Shock Collars

[Marla_100]

I’d like more input from experienced trainers here using all positive re-inforcement in lieu of using harsh collars.

I’ve scheduled a series of training sessions for my adult son and rescue dog. So far I’ve only used positive training w/

verbal praise and very mild corrections. She’s done well using these methods.

But we’re about to embark on training my son in basic obedience and hopefully move on to correcting the dog’s leash

reactivity to strange dogs when out in public.

In talking with this new trainer, he has several times mentioned he may try a chain or prong or “training” collar which

I’m now concerned he may mean a shock collar. This is not what I wanted. I’d like her training to be done only using

her normal flat collar that she wears every day. I don’t want the dog handled with any pain provoking methods.

But before I call and discuss this or cancel the training session if he insists, I wanted input from other to see if I’m

off base here.

If you didn’t see my other thread, this is a rescue GSD/Husky female, 2yrs. old who is very good when on my farm,

but is strange dog reactive in public. she’s a gentle, sweet dog and can get anxious due to her suspected sheltered

upbringing.

Am I being too protective to insist on methods used to train her or is it normal to insist on only gentle, positive methods?

[S1969]

In my opinion? Yes. Positive reinforcement is never the only, best way for everything. Nor is negative reinforcement. And there is very little need for positive punishment, although on rare, serious occasions it might be ok if done properly (e.g. a dog lunging aggressively, for example, and the “punishment” could be a loud yell or sound).

I would be surprised if a trainer would use an e-collar for on-leash training. It’s not normally used that way.

But a martingale, choke or prong collar can be very useful if used correctly.

I have posted this question several times over the last two weeks and no one has answered it – why do we think it’s ok to use negative reinforcement on horses but not on dogs?

I would definitely ask about the training collar and methods used. I took obedience classes with a trainer that used a variety of negative reinforcement methods in addition to positive reinforcement. None were harsh or painful. They were much more like how we train/communicate horses with leg pressure. As they become more and more trained, very little “touch” is necessary to communicate to the dog.

[DarkenStormy]

Sometimes you have a “soft” dog who does not take well to negative reinforcement and that can just have the opposite effect that you want when training. There are several ways to handle a leash reactive dog. One way, is to try to use a high value food as a distraction or a reward when the dog does not react negatively to another dog coming by. There are several good methods out there on the internet - Patricia McConnell and Suzanne Clothier. I would try the positive training before starting with the prong collars - although used correctly can work if needed.

[XXS]

Trainer has to find out, why she is dog reactive. Is she naughty, is she insecure, is she protecting herself or your son e.g.? Training for a naughty dog is different to training of an insecure dog. And the trainer has to consider the part of the dog owner.

There is dog training between ‘cotton ball’ method and prong collar. I’d judge the trainer on his willingness to explain and find solutions that work for all of you.

[Simkie]

Is she respectful of her flat collar?

All things are relative–a quick correction that the dog “hears” in a sharper collar is far more kind than a protracted tug of war battle in a flat collar. If she’s so reactive that she tunes out the flat collar, wanting something that can get through that and say “I’m here, hello, let’s work together” isn’t a bad thing.

If she’s mindful in her flat collar, and the trainer is still making this suggestion…it may be worthwhile to look around for another trainer that’s a better fit.

[Marla_100]

Simkie, she is respectful of the flat collar with me here on the farm when we do beginner obedience practice. However my son uses

a harness when he takes her out hiking, into stores and all public places because he likes the security of it and it allows

her to walk him and pull him around without hanging on her collar. The dog leads him, no joke.

There should be no reason at all for any other collar when teaching my son to work with her on the farm. It’s when we get to the stage of ‘public’ work.

[Simkie]

Teaching her that it’s okay to pull you all over the place when she’s out and about isn’t helpful. You’re training her–for good or for bad–in every interaction. There is no reason to allow that, and not having a handle on her in public (especially with a reactive dog!) is really setting her up for failure. You want her MORE in control and responsive in public…not tuning you out and doing whatever she wants.

If the trainer has seen her out of control in a harness, it’s understandable why she might suggest a training collar of some sort. It’s probably worth a conversation to discuss your desires and why the trainer made the suggestions she did before booting her to the curb.

[Houndhill]

It’s actually a pretty major debate among dog trainers/behavior people- those who are “Purely Positive” and those who view themselves as “Balanced” I.e. they use punishment and/or negative reinforcement as well. You may be interested to read “Culture Clash” by Jean Donaldson and “Don’t Shoot the Dog” by Karen Pryor. Denise Fenzi has a large number of online classes offering positive-based methods of training dogs in a variety of disciplines.

Academic and veterinary Behaviorists such as Patricia McConnell and Ian Dunbar tend to be positive in orientation, and have had an extensive influence on dog training and solving behavior problems. You will find a pretty large literature on working with “reactive” dogs using positive methods. Perhaps your son might be interested in consulting with an animal behavior professional that your nearest veterinary teaching hospital could offer or refer him to.

My opinion based on my experience is that it is perfectly possible to solve problems with “reactive” dogs such as you describe using positive methods, providing that the owner is under the supervision of a competent and well-trained practitioner. It is also possible to make the problems worse using any tools, with or without punishment, so it is critical to work with someone who is experienced and successful in working with this type of problem and with this type of owner and dog.

[Bicoastal]

Before you give a trainer money, be sure you are comfortable with his/her methods. Ask all of the questions you need.

I take a different approach than positive punishment for leash reactivity. I feel there are too many potential negative side effects to attempting to “correct” reactivity. It is easy to our timing to be off or the reason for the dog’s behavior is misinterpreted. SUPER easy to make the behavior worse.

As a trainer, I’d want to know what would happen if the dog made contact and what is the dog seeking from her display?

“Reactivity” is thrown around A LOT now and is often a euphemism for aggression. For training and for long term safety, I would want to know if she is reactive or aggressive. Basically, what would happen if she were permitted to make contact?

Not that I would! Most dogs would take offense to being approached by Hannibal Lector :D. It isn’t fair or safe for either dog. To that end, I would not permit son to take dog in public if he is not handling her appropriately. Letting her drag him through public spaces is not safe and not helping her learn the behavior you’d like to see. The more she practices displaying, the stronger the habit becomes and the tougher to remediate.

[XXS]

I’d not ask from a farm dog to be a city dog ‘over night’. Leaving the farm step by step and increasing requirements (and shorten distances to other dogs) can be an exciting task for your son.

Harness can be a good choice for some dogs, for some not. Some dogs may have read somewhere that a harness is there for pulling a sledge ;-).

[Marla_100]

@Simkie

Teaching her that it’s okay to pull you all over the place when she’s out and about isn’t helpful. You’re training her–for good or for bad–in every interaction. There is no reason to allow that, and not having a handle on her in public (especially with a reactive dog!) is really setting her up for failure. You want her MORE in control and responsive in public…not tuning you out and doing whatever she wants.

If the trainer has seen her out of control in a harness, it’s understandable why she might suggest a training collar of some sort. It’s probably worth a conversation to discuss your desires and why the trainer made the suggestions she did before booting her to the curb.

I was describing the way my son, who has had no dog training experience, allows the dog to jaunt around and he follows.
The whole purpose of this trainer experience is 1) to have an outside trainer teach my son how to do basic obedience,
and to instruct son on proper behavior of dog in public and 2) eventually teach son and dog how to overcome reactiveness in public and educate dog on focusing on handler.

the trainer has not been out yet and hasn’t seen dog. I explained to trainer via phone how dog acts, where she is in her training with me on the farm, and that I’d like to pursue a positive approach without harsh methods or tools.

I personally have never worked one on one with a dog trainer. I’ve done numerous basic and intermediate obedience
classes over the years with numerous dogs. I’ve never had a dog with her behavior with strange dogs so that part is new to me.

This dog was introduced carefully to my son’s large Huskys and things went fine. I say carefully because my dog was
very puppyish and immature when I brought her home and she was very rambunctious w/ his elderly dogs without careful
introduction (on leash). Socially she was fine but she obviously didn’t know the proper nuances in meeting them.

[Saskatoonian]

Hard to know if the trainer is apt to leap into harsh collars more quickly than you’d like (understanding that ever leaping into them is your preference) or if he’s just being totally honest with you about the toolbox. I don’t know how you’ll really know the answer without watching him teach others or just giving training with him a shot knowing you might decide it’s not for you. What about doing a session with him yourself before turning your son and dog over to him?

It would be interesting to know what else is in his toolbox in terms of collars and the like. When i took my pup to obedience classes, the first thing that the instructor and her assistants did was quickly assess the dogs and walk around with a variety of collars and harnesses designed to deal with different issues. One harness, for example, has an attachment for the leash in the front, so that contact doesn’t make the dog pull, but turn toward the handler. Pretty cool. Maybe these are in his repertoire but didn’t come up in conversation because they’re not controversial?

ETA I love your plan and your dedication to this dog, who sounds like she deserves every bit of it.

[Marla_100]

@Salo

I’d not ask from a farm dog to be a city dog ‘over night’. Leaving the farm step by step and increasing requirements (and shorten distances to other dogs) can be an exciting task for your son.

Harness can be a good choice for some dogs, for some not. Some dogs may have read somewhere that a harness is there for pulling a sledge ;-).

yes and looking part Husky, makes her even more adept at it!! She’s a natural and is more inclined to pull than any dog I’ve ever had.

You’re exactly right, this dog has had an accelerated introduction to the big world, considering I really think she was raised
in a cloistered environment. I say a shed. On her first few trip out in the truck, she was fascinated by everything. She
studied cars, their tires, stop signs, buildings, mailboxes. It was funny, but sad too. Again, none of my many dogs had
been this sheltered. And to end up in a crazy, noisy shelter w/ strangers and have her puppies taken away. She went
through some frightening experiences in her short life.

[XXS]

@Saskatoonian

ETA I love your plan and your dedication to this dog, who sounds like she deserves every bit of it.

Me too!

[Marla_100]

@Saskatoonian

Hard to know if the trainer is apt to leap into harsh collars more quickly than you’d like (understanding that ever leaping into them is your preference) or if he’s just being totally honest with you about the toolbox. I don’t know how you’ll really know the answer without watching him teach others or just giving training with him a shot knowing you might decide it’s not for you. What about doing a session with him yourself before turning your son and dog over to him?

It would be interesting to know what else is in his toolbox in terms of collars and the like. When i took my pup to obedience classes, the first thing that the instructor and her assistants did was quickly assess the dogs and walk around with a variety of collars and harnesses designed to deal with different issues. One harness, for example, has an attachment for the leash in the front, so that contact doesn’t make the dog pull, but turn toward the handler. Pretty cool. Maybe these are in his repertoire but didn’t come up in conversation because they’re not controversial?

ETA I love your plan and your dedication to this dog, who sounds like she deserves every bit of it.

Her collar does have that extra snap on the front but son has never used it.
I think I’ll play it like you said, here for first session and he can assess her. She’s actually pretty good here at home.
Some days she’s more focused than others but overall I’d give her a B+ on obedience. Good recall- A- usually.

I don’t think most trainers like to use harnesses because they teach dogs to pull. duh, like my dog.
But when I use her flat collar she quickly goes into better behavior. I think the trainer will quickly see she doesn’t normally
need more than her flat collar while she’s here on the farm.

My neighbors have hounds and other dogs that bark a lot so if they want to walk up the road a bit, they can proof her
out in public very quickly.

She’s really a fantastic dog, gentle and sweet, and I just don’t want someone to use harsh treatment on her.

[XXS]

Marla, I have to ask, because somehow I don’t get what you mean with dog reactive exactly? A mix at that age can be just uncouth/foolish? Does your dog want contact, avoid contact, is afraid or wants other dogs for dinner?

[Marla_100]

@Salo

Marla, I have to ask, because somehow I don’t get what you mean with dog reactive exactly? A mix at that age can be just uncouth/foolish? Does your dog want contact, avoid contact, is afraid or wants other dogs for dinner?

Great Question. When my dog spots another dog out in public, on the road, in a parked car, she reacts by barking wildly
and acting ferocious wanting to move toward the dog. She reacts to strange dogs she does not know. She acts aggressive but is she really? I don’t know. Like I said earlier she has only met my son’s 2 large Huskys. When she met them she was overly rambunctious, wanting to jump and play and run BUT they were elderly and way past the puppyish
play stage. I introduced her over several visits and had her on leash and once they were accustomed to each other
they were all fine.

She had no dog skills. She didn’t understand how to meet quietly, but she was excited and happy to be around them, she
just had to learn not to run and knock them over and be too rough. She was like a true puppy.

With my neighbors’ new dogs she runs the common fenceline and barks and scares the new dogs off and back to their homes. I haven’t seen them meet nose to nose yet so I don’t know what the reaction will be. Is she just being a punk
bully cause she can? Maybe.
Is she trying to be an alpha female? I don’t know.

She has taken her new job here of scouting and protecting the farm quite seriously. Had a utility repairman jump over my locked gate and come in to do a repair on a power pole and when she spotted him, she took off in what looked like
attack mode, but I called her off and she turned it off as soon as she reached him, then started wagging her tail at him.

Because she’s a rescue I don’t know anything about her history so I have only the behaviors I see to deal with.

[4horses]

My Aunt has two large therapy dogs with excellent manners but she doesn’t discipline them at all. She doesn’t believe in harsh collars like choke chains either. Thankfully her dogs are mostly well behaved, except they love chasing squirrels. They once took off after a squirrel and broke her fingers in the leash. Those really are two of the sweetest, most well behaved dogs I’ve ever met. So i think she was really lucky to find them. The squirrel thing is their only issue.

I think you need a stronger collar with a strong dog. My dog yanked me off my feet onto some rocks, and she once yanked so hard she broke her choke chain- all due to strange dog reactivity. If you are in a public place, you cannot control how close someone else decides to approach.

[XXS]

In my area social walks are quite popular. Dogs learn to relax when surrounded by other dogs. They learn to ignore the other dogs and sniff instead and people learn to keep individual distances and to focus on walking with self confidence because they are supported by a dog trainer.

[S1969]

Sounds like a lot of different things being described here. Reactive to dogs might be fear or just lack of socialization.

“Obedience” in general is a really loose term. It is typical for a trainer to watch you walk your dog at thr beginning if your first lesson. There is a huge difference between not wanting to be dragged around and wanting the dog to heel. It Will be necessary to come to agreement about your goals and the priority of those goals. Your trainer may see increased control on a leash to be necessary to be able to do work that will reduce reactivity to other dogs. (E.g. exercises might be to train in the same room with other dogs, and work up to getting nearer and nearer.)

I also find the discussion abiut not using negative reinforcement to be interesting. Anytime you check the dog with the collar it is negative reinforcement regardless of the type of collar. Even when you are trying to give positive reward - every time you have to communicate via the leash (to keep the dog from moving forward, turning around, or lagging behind) ud negative reinforcement.

If all you do is check the collar or the dog just leans on it, it may be worth it to move to a prong collar. Or something else.