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Positive Based Training without using Harsh Collars- Prong, Chain and Shock Collars

The Menagerie
#21

I’ve ordered the book “Feisty Fido” by Dr. Patricia McConnell. So many here and online recommend her methods and her books. She is against chain, prong and shock collars. Her methods of gradual de-sensitiizing and reward based training whether the rewards are food, clicker or verbal praise are the foundation of re-training. And of course good basic obedience training. This makes the most sense for me and will be the path we follow.

For now, I’ve cancelled the training sessions since I wasn’t totally comfortable with his methods and don’t think he had
experience with my dogs behavior problems.

I’ve also learned there are numerous organizations nationwide promoting Positive Counter-Conditioning Training and
there’s at least one local vet leading the way nationally for re-training vets in Fear free vet care.
Behavioral Re-training for dogs is a whole field that’s getting much attention. I’m excited to read and study about what
these groups are doing. If you’ve never had a pet with a serious behavioral problem, you’d never know what’s
going on behind the scenes.

Right now my plan is to bump up her basic obedience training to 2 or 3 short sessions per day. Continue with simple
positive/praise rewards. Set a mini goal of being able to walk around my neighborhood without the dramatic over-reaction
to strange dogs, burros,etcs. Entice my son to learn basic obedience from me.

I’m optimistic that this dog will overcome this problem and I look forward to working with her to help her.

Thank you for all the input and suggestions on reading materials and trainers.
It’s fascinating learning more about training using simple positive, force free methods.

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#22

What’s her name? Will you keep us updated?

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#23

Heidi.
Of course I’ll let you all know how it goes. Patricia McConnell says allow 6 mo. to totally eradicate the behavior. Online

reviewers say they started seeing some results in a week or two. Many called this book a “Gamechanger”.

The book is devoted to this exact problem dog-dog reactivity. It’s only 63 pages but it’s a hands on how to, step by step,

and the work is progressive week by week. I ordered my son his own copy. :winkgrin:

for anyone curious about this author’s work, she’s written 14 books on the subject of Canine Behavior.

2 Likes
#24

Oh, the book is only $8. on Amazon. Much cheaper than the $600. quoted by the trainer.

#25

oh, Heidi is short for Adelheid, means nobility, classy. May she grow into this name and behave like a lady ;-), best of luck!

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#26

I am pleased you chose to work on this more yourself. However, you DO, IMO, insist your son is on the same page and that he watches you and learns and practices. OR I wouldn’t allow him to take the dog anywhere. IMO, the son is 90 percent of the problem.

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#27

Totally agree! :yes: :yes:

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#28

Yup, I do realize this :mad:. It’s coming to that.

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#29

Sniffing nose to nose often causes reactivity when dogs are on a leash, and it is often quite hard to know who started it.
So for that reason I do not allow it when my dog is on her leash. If they go to sniff the back end, it is usually safe. On the beach where there is unlimited space, tides and dozens of loose dogs, never a rumble.

I use a chain on my dog as she runs through her regular collar. Being a Boxer with no hair on her throat I’d never use an electric or prong collar and she is biddable in her chain (training) collar. I do not think it is harsh.

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#30

Late to the thread but–you are your dog’s advocate. You should be comfortable with whatever training your dog receives. If you are not, it is your prerogative to remove the dog from the situation. This was the best advice I ever received when embarking on new territory (training for a discipline) with my pupper. I take it to heart and always follow it and haven’t ever been sorry.

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#31

Good to hear, Marla - you are definitely on the right track (and using all the best resources :encouragement:”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹), Patricia really is the best.

As mentioned, I’m not a fan of prong collars - though have had a few students with Mastiffs/Bull Mastiffs who used them - and choke chains are very often used incorrectly by most people, unfortunately. E-collars have their use (off leash), but for basic obedience I find they tend to cause dogs to shut down or obey out of fear - you want a dog who is positively motivated to comply (“look for the yes” and reward frequently with good timing to shape the desired behavior), not afraid of an unpleasant consequence.

Try a Gentle Leader, I have found them to be truly helpful “training wheels” for many dogs who are strong pullers; bonus is that they tend to also have a calming effect. Once the dog has fully learned the “incompatible behavior” and alternative response to the trigger (and is walking calmly and politely on-leash, checking in frequently), you can wean off to a regular collar or FRONT snap harness.

And get that dang son on board or else!

Consistency in training is essential to success…

Best of luck to you, I’m very optimistic that you will see some major improvements with your “program”! Please keep us posted.

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#32

Mini Update- Took Heidi out and up the road to just past my property to where there are several other farms with barking

dogs, burros, peacocks, pigs, geese BUT none of the critters were out and about. Probably too hot, heat index has been

105 this week.

Used her regular flat collar and made her stay in obedient mode, right beside me, not pulling ahead and paying close attention. We walked 5-6 steps and stopped and she stared around. Walk again and stop and stare. She did great,

until we got to corner and my son comes toodling down the hill in his truck. Heidi goes into ecstatic mode. But I held

her back, made her sit and stay til he drove away down to my farm. Made her stay til she was calm and paying attention and then unsnapped her leash and let her run home to him.

Now I realize I need something stronger to hold onto her when she flips out. Flat collar is not enough. I’m wondering about attaching a leash to both collar and harness. I’ve seen double clip types for this.

Dr. Doolittle, what do I need for these times when I need more control?

I’ll look up the Gentle Leader and see if it might help. I’m working with only one strong leg here so I’m handicapped a little.

But this was a good start. She enjoyed getting out and off the farm and I’m confident I can handle her if she goes off.

Dr. D., thanks for the tips, I’ll stay in touch.
edit: I ordered a Gentle Leader for her today.

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#33

This sounds like progress, :slight_smile: Heidi clearly has some impulse control issues - most dogs do before they receive structured training (and when young) - so that’s what you will need to focus on. Teaching emotional regulation is important and key.

You are doing many of the right things, so yes - it sounds like you would benefit from more control and influence while on leash - particularly if you are a bit “handicapped!” Strong dogs can really pull hard, especially when they’re excited. Try a GL, they really are extremely effective for many dogs (have been a game changer in many cases), just be sure to watch the DVD (or Youtube videos) on how to fit it and how to acclimate the dog to it. Most dogs hate them at first; they are like a snug halter on a horse and take some getting used to, so you will need to pair treats and praise/attention/petting with wearing it, then remove it and leave - all the “good stuff” goes away when the Leader comes off. (In this way, acclimating to it is similar to counter conditioning.) It takes skillful timing and finesse, just like having good hands when working with and riding a horse. :wink:

The CCI Service dogs all wear them when they are puppies and teenagers since they help so much with focus and impulse control; they wean off them as they get further into the program and wind up being placed. I have a good friend who is a Puppy Raiser and has had several that have gone through regular training classes with me along with their CCI training. They are almost ALL Labs and Goldens, so benefit from the calming effect and the extra control GLs provide.

https://www.cci.org/get-involved/advocate.html

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#34

^^^^ Dr. D., very, very helpful. I need to keep your advice handy and re-read every few days even if just to remind myself

that her behavior isn’t unusual. Yes, emotional regulation, focus and impulse control says it perfectly.

Heidi has a bit of an independent streak (Huskyesque ?) and gets a look on her face that tells me she hears me and

understands but- " make me". But she knows now that I can read her so we wait it out, the brain cells are burning and then

she suddenly says “Oh, alright, I’ll do it.” But she really does enjoy the structured activities- after we’re finished she’s more

snuggly and affectionate for several days.

She is very challenging at times, but her very deep, sensitive personality makes it fun. She’s trying hard to be a good

student and is learning quickly that life is not all about ‘recess’ time but serious work also. Definitely the most complex

dog I’ve ever worked with, but it keeps me thinking and studying also.

Great advice from you again. Thanks so much!

edit- I hope others can benefit from Heidi’s journey as she develops into a mannered,

civilized good citizen. There are so many other dogs sitting in shelter cages who

may have some behavioral issues but with some training and education could make

wonderful, lifelong companions.

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#35

Do keep in mind that a harness–a regular one, anyway–is designed so that they CAN pull safely. It’s not something that offers you any control and will only allow the dog to pull hard.

Dr D’s advice about the gentle leader is great, but def pay attention to the “dogs often hate them at first” part :wink: This too shall pass!

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#36

How about a front clip harness? It would swing her back around to face you when she pulls.

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#37

Yes indeed! To both :wink:

Marla, you know what they say about female dogs (no, not that - LOL), but they CAN be “Little Princesses” and can be passive-aggressive (“what - you’re taliking to MOI??”) Be patient and wait. Them. Out.

I would also load the clicker and then start using it (paired with a warm, enthusiast YES!) so as to have another way to “mark” her behaviors. A well-timed click and a yes (then a treat - but not always unless you’re loading) is quicker than “good girl!” and fumbling in your treat back to produce a reward. It will really help with the precision of your timing/reward.

Also, try not to “talk her ear off” and repeat commands; she will learn to tune you out. Use happy, warm voice tones for “Yes!” and “good girl”, and cheerful, enthusiastic, singsong voice tones for “let’s go” and “with me”, command tones for “sit, wait, stay and down”; no question marks at the end of commands.

I find that “pup pup!” often works much better than her name to get her attention.

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#38

I have a female that sounds similar to yours, OP. Reactive, but really wants to play. However, can get aggressive if I’m not careful. She has come a long way in the 3 months we’ve had her, but I’m still working on her learning to properly greet other dogs. She is a social moron when meeting other dogs, but has had successful play dates with a few dogs. Last night she met my parent’s Husky and it did not go well at first. What helped was going for a walk on opposite sides of the road. Mazie was distracted by the new sights and smells and after a short time they were able to walk closer together. I know this approach doesn’t help for most situations, but keep in mind that distance is always your friend. Treats do not work to distract my dog when she is that aroused, so I have to go with the retreat method. Punishment also does not work. I did use a prong collar on her a few times before we got her front clip harness, in those situations when I knew she would pull like a maniac.

And I bought a lovely fanny pack to hold treats. Not fashionable at all, but I’m old enough to not care, and it works really well.

And I commend you on finding an approach you are comfortable with.

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#39

Mini Update- the Gentle Leader head halter is pure MAGIC…when she’s not fighting it. Will wear it at sit and stay and down, indefinitely- no problem. but up walking and moving it has pinpointed her primary problem- her desire for independence,
lack of focus and pesistence in getting the dang thing off. But if we reach a point of acceptance this will be golden.
She will be a different dog by all accounts now. Holy Moly, I’m so impressed.

Thanks Dr. D. for suggesting this, I can tell it will be a HeidiChanger.

thinking ahead to how this will transfer to ‘off the farm’ antics.

edit-
2nd try today- inside the house she’s much, much better so we’ll get used to this inside first then move outside again. baby steps.lol she’s learning real fast- “will work for treats”.

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#40

cloudy18- thanks for chiming in. One thing our dogs teach us is that each dog is different and what works for one may not work for another. I think this is where temperament and personality come into play.

Arousal level- agree with you that initially retreat is our friend and treats won’t work. You might enjoy reading the Feisty Dog booklet from P. OConnell, even though it sounds like you are doing well on your own.

What breed (s) is Mazie?

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