I’m not a fan of the gentle leader, but good to hear, that it works for you. Do you use it combined with normal collar just to lead her head to look at you (asking this because I saw many people using it instead of a collar which is not the idea and can cause injuries in the neck). For acceptance: what about feeding her with the gentle leader from her bowl, so she learns to wear it like we are wearing sunglasses without thinking about it.
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Salo, right now we’re just figuring out what the GL will do and it’s under the best of circumstances, not off farm. Like you, I’d
like to see this used attached to and in conjunction with a flat collar. My first concern, due to the nature of the problem I’m
using it to re-train- reactivity and control- is that the GL could potentiall slip off or become twisted, lax or ineffective due to
slipping it’s position. So dog would be loose or without control.
People reviewing newer version of GL say they’re now skimpier, using narrower cord stock, than older version. I can
see where a wider strapping material may be more effective. Yes, I’ve considered feeding her in this, if necessary.
But so far, she gradually becoming more accepting of it. But we haven’t had a hugely non-compliant behavior or an
explosive reaction to anything, Still not so sure, I’d totally trust this off farm and in unfamiliar territory. I’m still thinking of
using a 2 leash method, one one GL and one on collar or harness for security.
I went back and looked at GL video of training dogs to use it and it’s a little misleading w/ their well trained, compliant
dogs happily walking along. HAH!
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I have used the Gentle leader in the past and would do so again if I needed it. I was able to walk three large German Shepherd Dogs at the same time using Gentle Leaders and never had issues with pulling.
However, this is important to note: the Gentle Leader or any type of head halter is not a training tool (also including front snap harnesses). It will not help train your dog. The minute you take it off, you are right back at square one. It is a management tool only. Also, remember to only use it with a traditional leash. Using it with a long line or retractable leash can result in serious neck injures to the dog. There has been anecdotal evidence that broken necks can occur when long lines or retractable leashes are used.
Sheilah
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The idea of the GL is to use it as a tool in addition to proper training. Again, I’m not a fan, but it may work for some dogs if used as a supportive aid in training. It is meant to be used combined with a harness or collar e.g. to teach the dog to look at you or not to stare at other dogs or to prepare to turn.
Correctly fitted it should not slip off; the backstrap should be snug and positioned right behind the ears. The nose loop is fitted by sliding it up the nose before closing the plastic snap - it should slide right up to the “leather” of the nose, no further. If looser, they can get it off with a paw swipe. You should be able to put a finger under it at the “Vee”, and remember to fit it so that it forms a V shape, not an L shape; if the backstrap is too loose it will twist on the dog’s nose.
What type of head conformation does she have? I’ve used Haltis on dog with wider heads:
https://www.chewy.com/halti-optifit-dog-headcollar-large/dp/117361?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=hg&utm_content=Halti&utm_term=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1L_YiqOM4wIVT1mGCh1AZQhqEAQYAyABEgKdcPD_BwE
and they are less restrictive and more “sturdy”, but also tend not to fit as snugly. The backstrap is often too loose, which is why there is an additional snap attachment that goes on the collar for safety - the leash goes on the ring.
You can always put a leash on the collar as backup, but then you have two leashes to keep track of - along with treats (and possibly clicker.)
IME the majority of dogs learn to accept them (if they never “love” them :lol:), and they are incredible effective as “training wheels” while dogs are learning leash manners, focus and “check in”, impulse control, and how to walk without pulling.
NO! Dear God don’t use them with retractible leashes (which are the devil anyway unless you have a very calm, slow, well-trained dog you walk by itself with no distractions), and they are not suitable for long lines.
There is a learning curve for dog and human and using one well is a skill, just like learning how to have soft rein or lead rope contact and proper timing and sensitivity when working with/riding a horse. I use the same advice I use with my horse students: “short rein and long arm.” The key is to keep your leash short but NOT tight, arm by your side with relaxed elbow and no pulling up, release pressure the instant the dog is closer to you (no yanking on the dog’s head, which can be tough when you’ve become used to engaging in a pulling match!), and instantly reward/mark check ins, head turns, and the moment the dog puts a little slack in the leash. This is an example of negative reinforcement since if your timing is good, the dog “self rewards” - though a reward from you at the right moment is also important!
It becomes like a dance with a good partner, and continuing to work on counter-conditioning the triggers will help the dog learn new leash behaviors as her brain changes, and she becomes “well trained and compliant.”
Remember that it’s training wheels, but use it as a tool - and for as long as necessary.
I am a CGC and Community Canine Evaluator, and I help my students with young, strong, excitable dogs (and who use GLs) transition to using a regular collar (or front snap harness) since GLs can’t be used in the tests. It can be done, but patience is required - and keep in mind that your girl has had some bad habits trained in (inadvertently) by your son - she has learned the oppositional reflex: https://thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/opposition-reflex-big-term-ruining-dog-training/
And yes, this had some debunkers among trainers, but the validity is there.
Keep in mind that you are always either training or untraining. Much as with horses 
Well, I wrote a LONG post but made the mistake of adding a link, BAM! “Unapproved”, so the post went POOF.
:sigh: :rolleyes:
So, more briefly: a correctly fitted GL should not slide off - you want to make sure the backstrap is high and snug (I always say “high and tight like a military haircut”), and the nose loop should be fitted so that you can slide it to the leather of the dog’s nose but no further. There should be a little space to put your finger through under the chin, but the nose loop shouldn’t be so loose that the dog can “swipe it off” with her paw. The Leader should form a V shape, not an L shape - if the backstrap is not up behind the ears the Leader can slide around on the nose, become unstable, and chafe.
Depending on her head conformation, you might consider a Halti; I’ve used it on dogs with larger heads and shorter muzzles, and it’s less restrictive and more “sturdy.” The downside is that the Halti backstrap often fits too loosely, making it a bit unstable. There is a snap on it to attach it to the collar (for safety), you put your leash on the ring. (I provided a link to it, but learned my lesson after having my post disappear! You can Google it.)
Mon Dieu, you NEVER use head harnesses with retractible leashes! (They are the devil anyway, unless you’re walking an elderly toy breed in a non-distracting environment…)
Ditto on long lines. If your dog is benefiting from the calming effect of wearing the Leader, you can always attach a leash (or long line) to the collar or FRONT SNAP harness instead of the Leader, and see how the dog responds. It usually serves as training wheels, and when I am transitioning my students from Leader to collar (or front snap harness) to prepare to take the CGC, that is a useful step.
Leash walking and heel training is somewhat like dancing with a partner: there needs to be timing and sensitivity and give and take - and the timing of the release is key. It’s very similar to learning to ride with an educated and sympathetic hand. I tell my horse students: “short rein, long arm”, and my dog students: “short leash, long arm” - and by that I mean your arm should stay by your side, elbow softly bent, NO pulling upwards or yanking or “holding” - there can be a brief resistance to keep the dog in your vicinity, but you are teaching your dog to “seek the slack” - which is an example of negative reinforcement. The dog will be rewarded by a slack leash when she stays close to you, focuses on you, and walks at your pace. “YES!” and a click and an immediate softening of the leash (and the occasional motivational treat) will be additional markers that let her know that she’s doing the right thing. 
Practice makes perfect, and remember to practice in your house - and in non-distracting environments first - to set her up for success when it’s easier for her.
This - along with counter-conditioning the triggers - will go a long way towards establishing NEW behaviors to replace the old ones; keep in mind that your son has been training in a bunch of undesirable behaviors (you are always either training or un-training, and she now needs to be RE-trained), so it will require patience and time.
Hang in there, Rome wasn’t built in a day, but you are making impressive progress! :applause:
(You can also Google oppositional reflex, it sounds like your son has been encouraging this for awhile so for Heidi, it’s become a default response to pressure on the leash, so you will need to change her default.)
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Purely pawsitive is definitely ‘a thing’, so you are not unusual to seek that method. Personally, i am a balanced trainer. I will use correction. But i temper it to the sensitivity of the animal with which i am interacting. Sensitive dogs/horses and other animals will get the most mild disappointment followed immediately by some sort of switch, then we’ll come back a little bit later. A harder, sturdier-temperamented individual will stay there in that moment and continue to work on it a little while longer.
Dog training is so very much like horse training. The more respectful the handler is to the sensibilities of the dog, (to what the dog might be sensing/might need to react to), the more likely the dog will be to trust and follow instructions. The dog needs to know you’ve got-his-back, that you are aware of him and interested in his safety. This is the first step. Focus on the animal, not on your cell phone, not on some friend nearby, not on some cute boy or girl walking down the sidewalk. When you’re training a dog, you need to be WITH that dog. So, about your son and his canine training, i’d suggest he first learn to concentrate on being involved totally with the project. If he is distracted, then he’s not going to get very far. Half measures do not yield 50%, half measures avail nothing. So: Head-in-the-game. That’s going to be the best device… His focus, his attention… forget what kind of collar or paraphernalia… Walks down a city sidewalk just very well could be too much distraction for the boy as well as the dog!
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