Possible Options for Eventing Prospect

[graytbmare]

My mare will be taking some time off from competing over the next year and I am taking this time to think about potentially breeding her. She is 11 and this would be her first foal. I am perfectly happy with an exact clone of my mare in almost every way- there is really very little about her I would want to change. I am working with an wonderful trainer and have experience with babies and breaking, so starting one of my own from the beginning is a dream.

I have been in contact with Hilltop Farm and Iron Spring Farm and can’t say enough good things about how helpful they have been. They have suggested a few options each, but I thought I’d see if there were any other suggestions. I have no experience in equine match-making

The mare: Incredibly honest, brave, athletic and kind. Very trainable, particularly over fences. She has a good walk, canter and gallop, but could use a bit more freedom in her shoulder at the trot. Lengthening and laterals do not come easy. She is forward and a sensitive ride- that does not bother me. She is also anxious and a bit self-destructive in turnout- that I would like to influence. Her conformation is overall quite good, slightly croup high, with a longish back. She has a lot of scope- easily schooling prelim with the potential for more.

I would love something with the potential for prelim/intermediate.

My two top picks from Hilltop: Calucci and Talisman. And from Iron Spring: Consul, UB40 and Florianus. ISF has also given the option of Judgement, but there would be some obstacles, such as bringing her there.

Any and all suggestions and thoughts are appreciated! I’ve also attached a conformation shot and picture of her jumping that pretty much describes my mare

[beowulf]

What breed is your mare, and pedigree? She looks like a TB? Very classic head and bone.

Why UB40, Consul and Judgement? I don’t usually see these 3 suggested for eventers… All three of them are tremendous sires, but UB40 is a dressage sire and Consul and Judgment are jumpers… of the 3 if I had to pick I’d pick Judgement but IMHO he would not improve what you need improving. He is longer himself, and there is opinion on this BB that his kids are not easy, and I do not always see him improve movement - he does give tremendous scope.

I am told UB40 is quite long-lined himself, so if your mare is longer backed, expect the foal to be too. I have also been told UB40 is best with a good-tempered mare or he throws hot and sensitive as does his entire sire-line. He does improve movement. I have seen some brilliant movers by him and have been very impressed with some of the foals I’ve seen. Not sure how he would improve scope… I have only ever seen dressage UB40s…

Of your mares “shortcomings” I think Buddenbrock is a very solid suggestion. You cannot get more proven for eventing than him IMHO, and he tends to improve the mare’s gait and conformation.

I would be remiss , on the subject of Trakehners, in not mentioning Tatendrang.

Objectively looking at your mare’s picture, I think I would look for a stallion with a clean throatlatch, elegant neck, good topline, and powerful loin connection with flat open hocks. I would want all of these qualities consistently passed on in offspring… Buddenbrock and Tatendrang both do that, and both improve scope IME.

I also think the Escudo son Freestyle is a very nice mover, and does improve the trot and scope of TB mares. He is a very nice stallion IMHO.

[graytbmare]

Thank you! This is definitely really helpful! I’ve done a little digging on the offspring of a few of the ones I had in the original post and there are quite a few out eventing. Both farms do seem to be primarily dressage and sj.

I love getting these other options, especially if someone has experience with their foals. I don’t mind a horse that needs to work, but would rather not end up with something rediculous or mean.

[graytbmare]

@beowulf

What breed is your mare, and pedigree? She looks like a TB? Very classic head and bone.

Why UB40, Consul and Judgement? I don’t usually see these 3 suggested for eventers… All three of them are tremendous sires, but UB40 is a dressage sire and Consul and Judgment are jumpers… of the 3 if I had to pick I’d pick Judgement but IMHO he would not improve what you need improving. He is longer himself, and there is opinion on this BB that his kids are not easy, and I do not always see him improve movement - he does give tremendous scope.

I am told UB40 is quite long-lined himself, so if your mare is longer backed, expect the foal to be too. I have also been told UB40 is best with a good-tempered mare or he throws hot and sensitive as does his entire sire-line. He does improve movement. I have seen some brilliant movers by him and have been very impressed with some of the foals I’ve seen. Not sure how he would improve scope… I have only ever seen dressage UB40s…

Of your mares “shortcomings” I think Buddenbrock is a very solid suggestion. You cannot get more proven for eventing than him IMHO, and he tends to improve the mare’s gait and conformation.

I would be remiss , on the subject of Trakehners, in not mentioning Tatendrang.

Objectively looking at your mare’s picture, I think I would look for a stallion with a clean throatlatch, elegant neck, good topline, and powerful loin connection with flat open hocks. I would want all of these qualities consistently passed on in offspring… Buddenbrock and Tatendrang both do that, and both improve scope IME.

I also think the Escudo son Freestyle is a very nice mover, and does improve the trot and scope of TB mares. He is a very nice stallion IMHO.

She is a thoroughbred, her JC name is Confided. Those stallion options were my jumping off point at those two farms, but I am most definitely open to options. I’ve got quite a few months to decide, so wanted to make sure I’m thorough in this and get as much information as possible.

I would love something with babies on the ground, preferably competing. Do you happen to know the temprement Buddenbrock and Tatendrang tend to pass on? My mare is freakishly sweet, but if they happen to pass down a bit of chill ness, that would be great.

Im not against horses outside North America, either. If anyone has any experience with some of the overseas options?

[graytbmare]

@Sempiternal

I honestly love Buddenbrock and he’s my top choice if I ever breed my mare. He’s standing at Aqua Farms in FL.

There’s also a grandson of his locally - for me - (by Hirtentanz and out of a Buddenbrock daughter) who looks promising. His name is Ehrentanz.

https://www.facebook.com/aquafarms.sporthorses/

He is stunning, by the way. I’m not picky at all about color, but a solid, dark foal would be lovely!

[vineyridge]

Personally, I would go with a Trakehener. You could get your mare inspected, the foal would be registered, and (this is why I suggest this), if she has a daughter, you could then breed the daughter to the Trak approved TB, Sea Accounts, which would give you a very powerful linebreeding to Sea Hero–which I think would be a very good thing indeed.

IMO, trying that this generation would be too close.

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

With regard to the temperament of Tatendrang foals, I have two that I have bred and have met several others as well as Tatendrang himself and they have stellar temperaments! The owner and manager are great to work with and the semen quality is extremely good. There are several offspring successfully starting performance careers.

My 2016 filly was a bit of a grump, until she was weaned but I attribute that to her dam’s personality and parenting. Once she was with her weaning buddy she got very sweet. My 2017 filly is a full sibling but is growing up in a herd with other mares in addition to her mother, and is just the sweetest. She is very laid back and smart, and I am keeping her for myself I have a 2018 due out of another mare at the end of June (I really like this stallion and the quality of his foals if you can’t tell)

[graytbmare]

Does anyone happen to know if Buddenbrock is done breeding? His is not listed on their site and there is reference to it being his last season earlier this year on their Facebook page.

[graytbmare]

@vineyridge

Personally, I would go with a Trakehener. You could get your mare inspected, the foal would be registered, and (this is why I suggest this), if she has a daughter, you could then breed the daughter to the Trak approved TB, Sea Accounts, which would give you a very powerful linebreeding to Sea Hero–which I think would be a very good thing indeed.

IMO, trying that this generation would be too close.

Thank you!

I hadn’t thought of it, but absolutely love this idea! My mare definitely has some interesting lines and I’d like to keep a lot of TB moving forward. I would also be thrilled if she ended up giving my a filly! Do you have any thoughts on the rest of my mare’s pedigree? Things to avoid in a stud for her based on her lines?

[Fred]

I don’t know if he is still breeding, but a stallion I have always liked, and wished I had bred one of my A Fine Romance daughters or sisters to, is the Holsteiner Concerto Grosso.
Many years ago I did breed one of my AFR sisters to another outstanding Holsteiner stallion who had the same owner at the time, but I was very impressed with Concerto Grosso, and feel that he has been overlooked.
He is a good mover, good jumper, with a great pedigree, and quite a bit of TB blood.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/concerto+grosso

[graytbmare]

@Dance_To_Oblivion

With regard to the temperament of Tatendrang foals, I have two that I have bred and have met several others as well as Tatendrang himself and they have stellar temperaments! The owner and manager are great to work with and the semen quality is extremely good. There are several offspring successfully starting performance careers.

My 2016 filly was a bit of a grump, until she was weaned but I attribute that to her dam’s personality and parenting. Once she was with her weaning buddy she got very sweet. My 2017 filly is a full sibling but is growing up in a herd with other mares in addition to her mother, and is just the sweetest. She is very laid back and smart, and I am keeping her for myself I have a 2018 due out of another mare at the end of June (I really like this stallion and the quality of his foals if you can’t tell)

This is great to hear! What types of mares did you cross him with? So glad to hear they are pretty chill babies. What were you trying to get from the match? I would love to see pictures!

I will hopefully have a friend’s mare who will be bred at the same time and the babies will get to grow together. And then a sassy gelding and surly pony mare to help after that

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

Another boy to look at is Gatsby. He’s 50% tb, with great old G line Warmblood breeding. A super athlete who has a reputation for producing babies with good temperments. That would give you a 75% tb foal with very athletic Warmblood lines, and probably make for a NICE eventing prospect.

Another option? Check out Avalon’s lineup. In particular Mannhattan and Toronto. Both would probably cross well on a TB mare and give you a nice baby.

[graytbmare]

@Virginia Horse Mom

Another boy to look at is Gatsby. He’s 50% tb, with great old G line Warmblood breeding. A super athlete who has a reputation for producing babies with good temperments. That would give you a 75% tb foal with very athletic Warmblood lines, and probably make for a NICE eventing prospect.

Another option? Check out Avalon’s lineup. In particular Mannhattan and Toronto. Both would probably cross well on a TB mare and give you a nice baby.

Thank you! I will check those out. There is an older mare with G lines where I board. In her day she was a phenomenal jumper, even though she is fairly heavy.

Do you happen to have any experience with the offspring of the ones you mentioned?

[gumtree]

“I have also been told UB40 is best with a good-tempered mare or he throws hot”

A little breeding terminology correcting.

Stallions to do not “throw” foals, mares “throw” foals, stallions “get” foals

That stallion “gets” good foals

That mare “throws” good foals. Or she produces good foals.

A stallion’s foals are referred to as his “get”.

A mare’s foals are referred to as her “produce”

IME these are universal regardless of breed

[beowulf]

@gumtree

“I have also been told UB40 is best with a good-tempered mare or he throws hot”

A little breeding terminology correcting.

Stallions to do not “throw” foals, mares “throw” foals, stallions “get” foals

That stallion “gets” good foals

That mare “throws” good foals. Or she produces good foals.

A stallion’s foals are referred to as his “get”.

A mare’s foals are referred to as her “produce”

IME these are universal regardless of breed

Gumtree, do you know anything about UB40? or any of the stallions listed?

I don’t think that was lost in translation because I said “throw” instead of beget/get/whatever your word of choice is. And that word of choice, by the way, is not universal in other languages…

I find saying “the stallion gets good temperaments” “the stallion gets crooked knees” is not, as far as the english language goes, grammatically clear or correct - and very open to interpretation from a party that is not familiar with breeding - which most horse people aren’t. The English language is quite ostensible and the words horsemen prefer to use are not always canonically correct when it comes to syntax. Breeders can make their own rules about what words to use when it comes to breeding, but those rules do not overrule the actual dictionary definition of the word… Breeders also refuse to acknowledge that a horse is related if they share the same sire – a ridiculous arrangement in my mind, considering they are related genetically – but you will see a breeder (like yourself) argue to the point that a horse is not a “half sibling” despite, I don’t know, science that says otherwise. You can see why I don’t always observe tradition. YMMV but I’m sure the OP (and you) knew exactly what I meant.

[graytbmare]

@Fred

I don’t know if he is still breeding, but a stallion I have always liked, and wished I had bred one of my A Fine Romance daughters or sisters to, is the Holsteiner Concerto Grosso.
Many years ago I did breed one of my AFR sisters to another outstanding Holsteiner stallion who had the same owner at the time, but I was very impressed with Concerto Grosso, and feel that he has been overlooked.
He is a good mover, good jumper, with a great pedigree, and quite a bit of TB blood.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/concerto+grosso

That is a good option too, I am adding Concerto to my list of ones to look at. I do wish I could have added A Fine Romance to the list as well, I’ve only heard good things!

[graytbmare]

@Fred

I don’t know if he is still breeding, but a stallion I have always liked, and wished I had bred one of my A Fine Romance daughters or sisters to, is the Holsteiner Concerto Grosso.
Many years ago I did breed one of my AFR sisters to another outstanding Holsteiner stallion who had the same owner at the time, but I was very impressed with Concerto Grosso, and feel that he has been overlooked.
He is a good mover, good jumper, with a great pedigree, and quite a bit of TB blood.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/concerto+grosso

Thank you! I will definitely add Concerto as one to look at further. Have you had any interaction with his babies? I wish I could have added A Fine Romance to the list as well- I’ve only heard good things!

[Dance_To_Oblivion]

@graytbmare

This is great to hear! What types of mares did you cross him with? So glad to hear they are pretty chill babies. What were you trying to get from the match? I would love to see pictures!

I will hopefully have a friend’s mare who will be bred at the same time and the babies will get to grow together. And then a sassy gelding and surly pony mare to help after that

So I actually had Tatendrang in mind when I got the mare, her name is Lady’s Levitation (Prince of Prussia/Lovely Lady/Tizian), because her dam had a super nice colt by Tatendrang, and I loved her dam. I was breeding specifically for an eventing baby. This is a video of the 2016 filly at about 3 weeks old https://youtu.be/HIeRFesvBFY

This is the 2017 Filly: https://www.facebook.com/kathryn.kri…417356/?type=3

https://www.facebook.com/kathryn.kri…848007/?type=3

Let me know if those don’t work. Anything horse related on my FB is set to public, so feel free to poke around there are more pictures/video of both of them!

The mare I have in foal to him for 2018 is actually a dressage bred mare, Dorothy’s Ruby Slippers (Tanzeln Ps/Devotion/Hailo PgE*), and even though Tatendrang’s primary competition experience is in eventing I think this cross will produce an excellent dressage horse.

[gumtree]

@beowulf

Gumtree, do you know anything about UB40? or any of the stallions listed?

I don’t think that was lost in translation because I said “throw” instead of beget/get/whatever your word of choice is. And that word of choice, by the way, is not universal in other languages…

I find saying “the stallion gets good temperaments” “the stallion gets crooked knees” is not, as far as the english language goes, grammatically clear or correct - and very open to interpretation from a party that is not familiar with breeding - which most horse people aren’t. The English language is quite ostensible and the words horsemen prefer to use are not always canonically correct when it comes to syntax. Breeders can make their own rules about what words to use when it comes to breeding, but those rules do not overrule the actual dictionary definition of the word… Breeders also refuse to acknowledge that a horse is related if they share the same sire – a ridiculous arrangement in my mind, considering they are related genetically – but you will see a breeder (like yourself) argue to the point that a horse is not a “half sibling” despite, I don’t know, science that says otherwise. You can see why I don’t always observe tradition. YMMV but I’m sure the OP (and you) knew exactly what I meant.

Funny you should ask. Yes I do. UB40 along with a number of other well regarded non Thoroughbred stallions are located basically across the road from my farm at Iron Spring. In what this area is called, Gum Tree. Or the Village of Gum Tree. Though most people that know like say when someone says “The Village of Gum Tree”, “you mean the sign” with a chuckle. Because there isn’t much of a “village”.

The owner Mary Alice Malone I would like to think is a friend. She has kindly given my wife and I personal one on one inspections of her stallions, mare, foals etc. We have been invited as her guest to the various breed inspections that are held there. We talk breeding because she know I breed a lot of TBs at my farm. We talk the same “breeding language” using exactly the same terms that are used with Thoroughbreds because they are universal among English speaking breeders.

My life with Thoroughbreds has taken me all over world. Those who’s “native” language may not be English but speak it well also use pretty much the same breeding language when talking breeding in English. Be it in the States or in their native country.

You asked I answered. My “expertise” in breeding as far as a “breed” is Thoroughbreds. But I am not clueless when it comes to other breeds. My expertise is not strictly with racing TBs either. I do have a fairly high level of expertise when it comes to breeding horses. Horses are horses when it comes to breeding regardless of the breed. I have been putting my money and other’s too where my mouth is for for many, many years. I have found what the “book” says about breeding, how to go about things and what to expect by and large only really seems work in the “book”.

[beowulf]

@gumtree

Funny you should ask. Yes I do. UB40 along with a number of other well regarded non Thoroughbred stallions are located basically across the road from my farm at Iron Spring. In what this area is called, Gum Tree. Or the Village of Gum Tree. Though most people that know like say when someone says “The Village of Gum Tree”, “you mean the sign” with a chuckle. Because there isn’t much of a “village”.

The owner Mary Alice Malone I would like to think is a friend. She has kindly given my wife and I personal one on one inspections of her stallions, mare, foals etc. We have been invited as her guest to the various breed inspections that are held there. We talk breeding because she know I breed a lot of TBs at my farm. We talk the same “breeding language” using exactly the same terms that are used with Thoroughbreds because they are universal among English speaking breeders.

My life with Thoroughbreds has taken me all over world. Those who’s “native” language may not be English but speak it well also use pretty much the same breeding language when talking breeding in English. Be it in the States or in their native country.

You asked I answered. My “expertise” in breeding as far as a “breed” is Thoroughbreds. But I am not clueless when it comes to other breeds. My expertise is not strictly with racing TBs either. I do have a fairly high level of expertise when it comes to breeding horses. Horses are horses when it comes to breeding regardless of the breed. I have been putting my money and other’s too where my mouth is for for many, many years. I have found what the “book” says about breeding, how to go about things and what to expect by and large only really seems work in the “book”.

Since you know UB40 intimately and had issue with my verbiage, maybe it’s pertinent to ask you if you think he’d be an appropriate match for OP’'s mare?

I am not doubting your expertise with Thoroughbreds. Just wondering if you have anything to contribute to the thread about OP’s actual question. It seems to me you didn’t care about OP’s question at all, just about being heard.

Another off the box suggestion for OP, I’ve liked the Schroeder x TB horses I’ve seen. He’s a dressage stallion but his pedigree is deceptive - both Sandro Hit and Escudo have event offspring. You’d get improved topline and movement for sure with Schroeder. I have seen him consistently improve the movement of mares - even of mares that were already good moving horses to begin with.

Someone in your X-post OP mentioned Persiflage. He has quite a following here and he would improve movement and topline as well. I am smitten with Tatendrang though and think he would be my top choice if you wanted a handy, willing athlete with good movement and brain… and of course, he is very handsome.