It is actually very helpful- I’ve got my list narrowed down to 5, but keep trying to come up with some sort of magical formula for ranking them. Haven’t found one yet, so your gut suggestion is as good as any!
I like the answer on why to breed, as well. I’d only add to it my desire to have a baby out of my favorite mare, because I can’t imagine a piece of her not being in my life. Ugh, that makes me pretty sappy!
It’s specific to Connemaras as far as is known. It results from a specific gene mutation. It’s called Hoof Wall Separation Disease, and its expression can be controlled by careful breeding within the breed. However, it’s also something that has the potential to enter the broader universe of horses and ponies if carrier crosses are bred, and then could become a much wider problem that has to be managed. It would be better to be careful about the Connemaras that are used for crosses and understand that those crosses, if the gene is present, should not be bred outside the Connemara universe.
There is a specific test for it, and some stallions are known to be carriers. I honestly can’t remember if Ard Celtic Art was a carrier. There was a thread about Connemara hooves a few years back; IIRC, his status was discussed, but I don’t have a solid recollection of his test results. I suspect that he may have been, which would jibe with my vague recollection, but only because the hiddencreekhorses.com website does not trumpet his N/N status. They do list the N/N status of a partbred stallion of theirs, Diego Dolphin. I personally wouldn’t use Art’s semen without asking about his status.
You knew that he’s been dead since 2014?
http://www.acps.org/news-media/113-2…annual-meeting
Here’s a 2015 American Connemara Pony Society publication which talks about HWSD.
http://www.acps.org/documents/magazi…connemara/file
To date absolutely nothing to support or suggest that HWSD exists outside the breed and carriers are phenotypically normal. Meaning carriers have perfectly normal feet (not faulty!!!) and potential - happy to chat with anyone interested in learning more. Where HWSD is of real concern is in purebred breeding ONLY or possibly 3/4 bred in which case it is possible to breed an affected foal. The solution is to test your breeding stock-but applies specifically to horses with Connemara Genetics (Connemaras, ISH and ID should probably be tested before breeding). Carrier and Affected fillies CAN be bred proved they are bred to NN stallions only - Same with carrier colts. There have been no affected foals born in the US since the test became available. I was involved in the research group that helped forward the test and all of our breeding stock is tested.
And Art was a carrier. Some of us believe there may be some added performance benefit linked to the HWSD as there are many examples of high performing carriers.
Both Blue and Arts son Willows Art of Kells are two worth considering for crossing on TB mares-both available by fresh. Yes, If all goes to plan Blue will have 22 Foals on the Ground by next season-nearly all are out of TB mares but he has also been crossed on WB and Pony mares as well. (His pony foals are super cute and good size too!)
I know this is kind of a tangent, and I do really like R Blue Moon, but I wanted to point out something…
I think HWSD is a concern even if the horse is “just” a carrier, personally. It can be really easy down the line for a carrier to be bred to another carrier and get an affected horse… because like you said, there is no phenotype that betrays the carrier’s condition. Unless the person tests, which some people who have Connemaras for 1/2breds don’t, how do people know? They don’t.
Horses change hands all the time - and history doesn’t always go with them. Imagine if your top broodmare, Indy, was a carrier. You did your diligence and only bred her to NN foals, but you sold all of those foals to sport homes. Imagine someone bought a foal, a filly named Clover, and raised her, broke her, and produced her for eventing for her kid… her kid outgrows Clover in 6 years and Clover finds herself in the hands of someone who wants an exact replica and breeds her to a TB for another nice event horse. That owner is owner #3 of Clover - what are the odds that owner knows that Clover is a carrier? What are the odds that someone who buys owner#3’s offspring of Clover is going to know it’s a carrier? And then what happens when someone decides to breed that 1/2 bred? It’s not as if carrier status automatically disappears. It can go down a line for generations upon generations without an affected individual because a carrier has a 50% chance of producing another carrier even when bred to a normal horse - ask me how I know…
My point is it’s not the Connemara registry that would concern me, it’s people outside of that - they don’t know to test, and if a carrier Connemara x TB x ISH was the Connemara version of superstuds like Ramiro B or Heraldik, that is exactly how the disease gets propagate into other breeds… because people will breed to this top performer and before you know it, HWSD is a problem in other registries as well.
This is exactly how HYPP perpetuated and became an endemic in the QH population. A big part of it was because people kept breeding to these horses - and the population became saturated by this disease.
It’s kind of like DCM in Dobermans. It’s really important to look way past the immediate individual of your pairing, but the registry/breed book’s future.
I totally agree with you its a legitimate concern, we as breeders can only attempt to educate other breeders and buyers. And it starts here/now both in public and in private. I require testing of all purebred mares before accepting any new contracts for my stallion. We also have our status clearly stated on our website along with all other genetic tests we have performed to date. He also has a full set of x-rays for review.
The ACPS is currently working towards increasing awareness through linking results to registration and microchipping. They also publish results in the magazine. However they currently do not have the ability to link chip information to a database (Other than USEF). Linking that information will have to be done privately.
According to UCD we cannot afford to lose even carriers from the Purebred Breeding population as it will only increase the likelihood of other heritable diseases occurring. These other “unknowns” are likely lying just under the surface if not already present. I think if you breed long enough you will likely run into SOMETHING with a heritable component-however its important to not throw the baby out with the bathwater. One look at the VGL site (or any lab offering equine testing) is eye popping with respect to the number of tests now available for various conditions
Probably the best example i have seen with respect to Heritable Conditions is how HERDA has been handled—breeders have been able to breed away from the affected state while preserving valuable genetics and the associated performance attributes comes with the carrier state.
There is a great difference between the example given above of HYPP in QH’s and the HWSD gene in Connemara ponies.
HYPP is autosomal DOMINANT; if the animal inherits the mutation then the phenotype has to be expressed. The HYPP horses were specifically bred for as the phenotype demonstrated the over-muscled schwarznegger body type so beloved of the US QH halter industry.
There is a huge difference between selective breeding of carrier animals of any breed with any autosomal recessive genetic disease than actively breeding for a defect.
Much better examples are available to discuss if you really wished to make a valid point; PSSM (warmbloods, draught breeds), SCID, CA and LFS (Arabs), HERDA (Apps).
Are you really suggesting that some of the top performing animals in these breeds, who may or may not be carriers of genetic disease should be excluded from breeding?
Before anyone makes blanket statements and expresses an opinion about population genetics some in-depth learning and research would be a great place to start.
Ard Celtic Art has been mentioned many times as being a carrier, in this post (fact). Was he a good stallion? Yes!
What about the TB stallions with bad feet (which they passed onto subsequent generations) and/or bad temperament?
Should they have all been gelded and not allowed to breed?
What about their broodmares, ditto?
I would say that it’s this kind of thinking that leads breed specific genetic diseases to spread to the wider horse population. If all this is wanted is performance, and the long term health of the population is ignored, then genetic flaws are perpetuated and spread. I don’t care how many HWSD Connemaras are bred to other Connemaras. Their genetic status as homozygous or heterozygous or negative is on file for concerned breeders to check and make their own decisions about whether to breed to them or not. Their registry CARES. But let’s say someone breeds a cross and gets the bad gene in their foal, which turns out to be an excellent performer. Then the owner breeds into another registry or no registry, and the new foal also carries the bad gene, and the line breeds on. It won’t be expressed, possibly for many generations, until the line is bred to another line that carries the gene. How many generations do you think will be tested for HWSD in a non-Connemara registry situation–or, indeed, no registry situation?
Or should responsible owners of horses with any Connemara blood have to test each generation for many generations and make their breeding plans accordingly to ensure that the bad gene doesn’t express. Isn’t it just better for everyone that carriers not be bred outside of their own breed registry which is aware and concerned about education and limiting the expressed disease.
That is my basic position on most of the recessive genetic diseases.
Some years ago, there was a stallion owner of an Arab who was a SCIDs carrier who was determined that he would be a good cross for WBs. She jumped through hoops and even went to the expense to go through the stallion testing, and he was approved by at least one warmblood registry and by the Trakeheners. When the Trakehener registry found that he was a SCID carrier (I seem to recall that it was SCID), they yanked his approval. It was particularly concerning for the Traks because they already have a good bit of Arab blood in their lines. I personally think they acted responsibly to protect the long term health of their horses.
When there is not a concerned registry, how many people do you think would care as long as their horses didn’t express the disease?
TBs are a totally different situation, at least in the US, because they make no claims at all to producing healthy, functional horses outside of racing; they have no inspections or approvals; and speed is the only quality that the breeders seem to care about. Most TBs are done as racers by the time they are five or six, and racing doesn’t give a flip about their functionality after they are finished racing except for sperm and egg production. As a result, genetic flaws ARE perpetuated in TBs, which I personally think is short sighted.
Your position about breeding horses with known genetic diseases is analogous to suggesting that some one hire Typhoid Mary as a restaurant cook because she is a talented chef.
Really informative, and well laid out post.
Responsible/Knowledgeable breeders are going to test for heritable defects it’s as simple as that. Genetic Testing is not is not exclusive to Connemaras—there are issues affecting more and more breeds. The New Forest have myotonia, the Halflingers Ocular Squamous Cell Carcinoma, Fell Ponies have Fell Pony Syndrome, Friesians have Megaesophagus, PSSM is a testable disease affecting over 20 breeds. Fragile Foal Syndrome in Warmbloods. The Arabs and Quarterhorses (as well as other stock horse breeds) have 5 panel tests already. As far as your TK example seems to suggest that SCID is already likely present in the breed as well as other testable diseases due to the Arabian Influence? Are TK breeders encouraged to test before makng their selections? Arabians are also known to have influenced GRP breeding and there is at least one case of SCIDS occuring unexpectedly in a Riding Pony Foal. Are GRP breeders encouraged to test prior to making their choices?
There are, I think someone posted, more than twenty tests for heritable diseases. As a TB mare owner, should I test for all of them because the TB studbooks don’t give a damn and we don’t know which diseases are carried in the TB breed even though we know some are? If I breed, should I require that the stallions I’m considering also have all those tests done so I can avoid breeding a carrier? And if I get a carrier because the stallion owner hasn’t tested for all twenty, what do I do with it?
Breeding within a breed/registry that recognizes some genetic diseases makes testing limited and doable. It’s the unfettered breeding of known carriers outside their breed that I object to. And if a carrier is produced by the cross, I say cull it from the breeding population no matter how well it performs.
IMO, most breeders are far more interested in stud fees and foals to sell than long term genetic health of the species “horse”. If there is a one in a million chance that the foal will be a carrier but not affected, why would I go to the trouble and expense of genetic testing before I breed?
“Your position about breeding horses with known genetic diseases is analogous to suggesting that some one hire Typhoid Mary as a restaurant cook because she is a talented chef”
Errr no. Logic disconnect. Typhoid is an infectious bacterial disease which is readily treated with anti-biotics and prevented by ensuring access to clean drinking water. Nowhere near the same situation.
Appropos your argument; a carrier of any autosomal recessive disease, statistically will produce 50% carrier status and 50% non-carrier status progeny. Statistically 50% of progeny will be male and 50% will be female. Except with the very commercial stallions (of any breed) the number of progeny sired by any particular stallion is not that high, even over a whole life time of breeding. SOf the total progeny produced, statistically 25% would be female carriers.
I have no idea how things work in the US but cross-breeding of cross breds is not considered to be good or wise animal husbandry in the jurisdiction in which I reside, so the scenarios to which you subscibe are extremely unlikely to occur here and in many other jurisdictions where horse and pony breeding is rigorously controlled.
Sure we can argue this issue until the cows come home and will not be likely to reach an agreement. Let it all rest there. The original poster was asking about possible mates for her mare. There is no point in hi-jacking a legitimate post about another (if related) topic.
If you feel so strongly about the situation of genetic defects in horses as you have chosen to raise, then I suggest that you start a new post on this specific topic.
Obviously there are huge differences between HYPP and HWSD… I feel like that goes without saying. However, I don’t think PSSM is comparable since it isn’t exactly a fatal disease like HWSD is… but HYPP can be…
HYPP is a great modern example of a genetic disease rapidly becoming present in a population and it is not unworthy of mention.
Guess what? People thought that horses with HYPP were “Top Performing” horses too… so they bred to them. The problem with breeding to top performing horses is that their genes start to saturate the market… Impressive is a perfect example of that. Art is a perfect example of that. Outside of the narrow box we’re thinking of, look at TBs – Mr Prospector – how hard is it to find a horse that does NOT have Mr P in them?
There are top performing Connemaras that are not carriers and/or affected. I’m with Vineyridge on this – and it isn’t exclusive to HWSD – I think culling is important regardless of breed. Viney also articulated better than I could about the dangers of carriers creeping into outside breeding – which they will, and do.
It was, as goodpony mentioned, really more of a question/dialogue, and if I offended you, which it seems I have, it was not my intention. However,I really do not think it is outrageous to think beyond the immediate (offspring of my mare/stallion) and think of the actual breed as a whole, 50 years down the line… which goodpony kindly responded and explained ways in which the registry had already considered that.
HWSD is not a fatal disease. It can greatly affect the ‘usefulness’ of the pony. HWSD on its own does not and cannot actually kill an affected pony (unlike HYPP, HERDA, Fell Pony Syndrome, SCID, LFS, and CA). To remove HWSD or any other autosomal recessive disease from the population without compromising genetic diversity will take between 8-10 generations minimum.
Seriously, your view is great in theory and I actually subscribe to a similar perspective, but hey, the human race is not renowned for taking a long term point of view on anything, even when science backs the hypothesis. Just look at the various stands taken over climate change! The warnings were already being aired in the nineteen sixties.
I just wanted to respond to this: there definitely are high performing NN ponies however unless you test you do not know if an individual did not come from carrier parents. I have 2 NN ponies both excellent performers but both came from one carrier parent (both foaled before there was a test!). There are both Imported and Domestic stallions standing in the US that have ONE PARENT That is a carrier but they themselves are NN. If we had eliminated their carrier parents we would have eliminated those offspring and those genetics. It all boils down to a genetic roll of the dice. Also until you actually breed something you cannot know what genetics are really in there. I’ve a friend that bred her thoroughbred mare who for all intents and purpose was considered free from visible defect. That mare was bred to a stallion and her first offspring had congenital cataracts. Thinking it was a one-off situation my friend bred the mare again to a different stallion and again produced a foal with congenital cataracts. Obviously, this mare was culled from the breeding program but like in the above example these defects are out there-they are already present in the breeding population
I have never herd of HYPP being desirable in performance horses rather only that they were desired for their prize winning phenotype in Halter Classes…
As CNZ already pointed out HWSD is not an automatic death sentence there are affected that not only are in ridden work but also compete. There are some extreme examples where euthanasia was thought to be the only humane option. Most of these ponies can be managed in my opinion.
Also got curious about TKs and what they recommend: http://americantrakehner.com/absolutenm/templates/?a=211&z=3 [LIST=1]
Just as a note to correct something from above and to clarify it. The ATA has tested for SCIDS in all Arab blood for a long while now (at least since 2004 and longer than that - I just know that I know about it from 2004). The Arab stallion was positive for CA and since 2012 the ATA has also required that testing for breeding stock with Arab blood in the first 7 generations. To date all TK tested are clear of CA (and this was retro even for those that were already inspected in that if they have offspring they or the mare/stallion had to be tested).
Since the current thinking on 4* event horses is that 3/4ths TB is a good thing, if a 1/2 TB x carrier Connemara is bred back to a TB, there is a 1 in 4 chance that a carrier would result from the breeding. That kind of cross breeding is very common. The carrier foal wouldn’t be affected, but if bred could continue to pass on the gene and in the long term, its line could meet itself. After all, linebreeding is a well known tool of breeding.
As to the Typhoid Mary analogy, are you suggesting that the general population should be exposed to any disease deliberately because the disease is easily cured? In case you weren’t aware, Typhoid Mary was a cook who was a typhoid CARRIER and the cause of a mini-typhoid epidemic in New York City in the last century. There were others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
I’ll now let this drop.
Just wanted to thank everyone for their input and suggestions- I was able to compile a list of almost 50, narrow that down to 20 to really research and then top 3 from there. All the information was so helpful. I can share who I eventually pick, if anyone wants, and then hopefully eventual baby pictures!
Yes please do update!!!
And every single one of these TB x Con x TB (3/4 TB x 1/4 Con) would be NORMAL (USEFUL RIDEABLE whatever you want to call it and with equal potential to perform) the only way to risk an affected individual is if you were to breed your carrier halfbred to a carrier connemara in which case you would be breeding 3/4 connemara and not 3/4 TB and 1/4 connemara which is the desirable cross. Also keep in mind 1/2 breds are often considered an END PRODUCT and not breeding stock as F1s often produce inconsistently-one way or the other.
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