Pricing question

[SusanO]

Take this for what is worth from this second level rider and Grand Prix railbird - what keeps a lot of horses from the Grand Prix is the tempi changes. Some Andalusians. but not all, do not have a lot of jump in their canter and this limits the tempi changes. I had a friend with one, a fabulous horse with a little flat and four beat canter and she struggled with the tempi’s. Maybe the horse could have done them with a pro but it was a struggle for her. So if the pro riding this horse is struggling with the tempis it might be really hard for you. Also it is a HUGE climb from where you are as a rider to the Grand Prix. By the time you get there this horse may be older and not as fancy as he is now.

And DO NOT borrow money for a horse. They are not an investment and can render themselves useless in a blink of an eye. Don’t think "Well if it can’t ride him I can sell him for the same price I paid:. Nope. Not if you are an ammie. And like somebody said - if he has been on the market for a year he either has vet findings or is not the quality the seller thinks it is. Not to say he isn’t a fabulous horse. He probably is. Just not a $250k horse.

Have the talk with the trainer. Tell her you really love the horse but he is way over what you can spend for a horse. Maybe the owner will decide they want out and offer him for a more realistic price. And you might have an edge because you have been leasing him and the owner knows it is a good home. I don’t think it is insulting to tell somebody that you don’t have that kind of money. telling somebody the horse is overpriced might be or offering a low ball offer.

[BayAreaRider]

It is a bit of a red flag if she is concerned about talking with her trainer. If you can’t talk to your trainer about money then is that the right trainer for you?

Also, it is a business transaction so of course negotiations around money is always allowed. How you go about it is the trick. You should do everything to get the best value and protection for yourself. If the other side doesn’t like then that is just business. How they react is nothing you can control.

[Cowgirl]

I think the price of the horse depends on where the horse is and whose hands it is in. If the horse is in Wellington with a good trainer, this price may be fair. If the horse is in Kansas, even with a good trainer, the horse may be overpriced. (People in Wellington will understand the high price and be expecting to pay that much for an FEI horse, people in KS are more likely not to spend that locally, but will go to Wellington and spend that!! LOL). I personally would not go into debt for a horse. I don’t know your personal circumstances, but most people need to have money to also take vacations, afford to show, buy clothing, maintain homes, etc. $3,500/month for board and training can be normal, also depending where you are. And the board and training are the tip of the iceberg. Insuring a $250k horse is going to COST. Probably $1k per month for insurance. Also you will have extras like farrier, vet, dentist, tack, supplements. You could go about this a different way and set a budget and then decide whether you want to buy a horse and what kind of horse.

[NC001]

No just no… this is not a good idea. The monthly bill alone. I feel like he should be packing you around at third with that much training going on for that long.

there are good options out there- this is not one of them.

[Feathered_Feet]

Not sure if this search will come through the link, but there are a lot of FEI horses on Warmblood Sales that are well under the 200k mark: link to WS search

(no idea how suitable they are as schoolmasters or promise of long-term soundness, but sharing so you get a feel for how many options you have if you are interested in FEI horses)

[candyappy]

@aa1977

His owner is looking to sell him and is asking for $250k

Are there other serious buyers lining up to pay that much for the horse? If something happened and you couldn’t afford to keep the horse could you sell him and at least break even on the purchase price?

[Snow_Mass]

I’m sure he’s a lovely horse. Andalusians are very nice AA horses because - generally speaking - their gaits are easy to sit, they have nice personalities, and they’re pretty.
And, they are also often over priced compared to the open market because they are AA friendly.
He’s priced as if he has current, competitive GP scores. He’s at PSG w/a Wellington price tag.
The leap between PSG and I2/GP is huge. Many horses learn to piaffe and passage but not at show arena quality. Add in ground covering 1’s, zig-zag, GP collection - it might as well as be another sport.
You could spend $75-$100K and find a very nice PSG school master in most parts of the US.
https://warmblood-sales.com/ is a start

[SBrentnall]

I’m currently shopping for exactly such a horse, and that price is too high for a horse with no show record above PSG. If his scores are good and he has a consistent PSG record, I would expect to pay around $150K.

[Bogey2]

Horse prices have actually been dropping over the past few months…but you need someone to look out for your best interest. I would never suggest someone go into debt to buy a horse, especially if you are not doing well at third level, you have a lot to learn and that’s too much money to spend for a schoolmaster.

[Scribbler]

If you are struggling to ride well at third level and having issues with connection, any higher level horse you buy will become a second going on third level horse for you unless the largest percentage of his saddle time is taken up by a trainer charging $$$$.

By the time you are riding PSG level this horse will be in his mid teens.

It would be lovely to progress on a horse way above your current level, but you aren’t going to be the person to keep him at that level.

I would suggest buying a horse that’s solid at second level, schooling third with potential and no big issues, and work on you riding third and fourth.

Once the two of you have mastered fourth you can decide if the two of you can start PSG or if it’s time for a new more talented horse.

[ahdressage]

Unfortunately, this sport has way of seducing people into a mentally numb state. A lot of people progressively fall farther into debt without realizing where they’re headed. (not saying this is you, OP!)
It’s kind of cult-like really. Before you know it, you’re in over your head. I know because I was headed down that path myself.

You’re almost shamed for saying you can’t/won’t pay that much for a horse. The exorbitant prices have been normalized IMO.

TL/DR; It’s too high.

[SillyHorse]

I have a friend who was able to purchase a lovely horse whose former owner sold him because he topped out at PSG and former owner wanted to take one to GP. So no, there is no guarantee that a horse that’s successful at PSG will even make it to I-1, much less GP.

[lazaret]

I would actually assume that a horse who is 11, still having trouble with the tempis and not scoring well at the PSG is probably not on track to become a GP horse in the next 3-4 years. If GP is what you want, you are going to be paying that $2k/mo training bill for at least 3-4 years with no guarantee that the horse makes it through the I1/I2 gulf.

I can point you to a 13 year old mare that is CDI competitive and rideable at GP by a junior rider for $300k, and another shown I1 with all the GP work well in progress for $175k.

Don’t take out a mortgage for something unproven. For that kind of money and training bills you can get exactly what you want, and at that price point, it’s business, not love and vibes.

For reference, I’d expect a horse who is an average mover, maybe only national quality, showing PSG with ok scores and working on the I1 to be around $100k.

[aa1977]

Wow, this was a really helpful discussion and I sincerely thank you all for your thoughtful replies! This is a sport/industry that can be intimidating, especially as an adult rider who never had the resources as a kid to get real experience (we were not in a position to own a horse so I spent years mucking stalls and cleaning tack in exchange for being able to ride a sweet old schoolmaster who could barely do a flying change once a month - but I adored him!!!) - I really appreciate hearing from people who really know what they’re doing and understand the nuances of this difficult decision.

[aa1977]

It was 50k for one year and it has been the best year I could have possibly imagined - he has taught me SO MUCH, he is just the best boy!

[2tempe]

A couple of personal examples here: I bought a Lusitano 10 years ago with hopes of completing my silver medal. He was 12. Got that goal accomplished, as well as getting two Intermediare scores towards my gold medal. He has piaffe and passage. But the one time changes were not there for him. Yes, three, four or maybe 5 could be done by a pro; I even got them a few times. But his brain would get ahead of his body, tension built, so we gave up on I-2 and above.
Early in covid I decided above horse did not need to show anymore; he was approaching 19, sound and still teaching me a lot. And I LOVE him. Shopped for another prospect - lovely horse Lusi/WB - capable, talented etc. Much lower price than you are talking. Showed a couple of CDI’s at PSG/I-1 with my trainer. by early 2023 confirmed all GP, changes came easy. We were planning his first GP test. Then, (at 10) he began having some inconsistent difficulties. Short version of the longer story as in the fall of 2023 he was diagnosed with cervical arthritis and spinal compression. Career done These things can and do happen. Soft tissue injuries can put the brakes on a career. Colic, etc etc.
If you cant afford to lose the purchase price completely, dont spend it. If you can’t be comfortable with the training costs, show costs, maintenance costs, don’t do it. Enjoy this lease for as long as you can.

[aa1977]

I should clarify that he has not been promoted; my trainer really wants to keep him at her barn so I know she is really hoping I can make it work out! I know that when he was at Wellington some people asked about him

[aa1977]

I should also clarify that my trainer is an angel and I 100% feel comfortable telling her I can’t afford it - I just love and respect her so much it breaks my heart to think of disappointing her! But I realize I also have to be fair to her (and the owner) and be really honest about where I’m at.

[pluvinel]

@aa1977 there is a saying here on COTH that says, “People don’t need a $30,000 horse. What they need is $30,000 worth of lesson.” That was a long while ago, so obviously we need to factor in price inflation.

I would NEVER pay more for a horse than I have ever paid for a truck…or even a house. I have a queen’s taste on a pauper’s wallet, so I buy young horses (long-yearlings to 2 yr olds) and break them to ride. Those horses, and good teachers, have taught me more about horsemanship, than a “trained” horse could ever possibly teach.

So…ask yourself what are your goals? Do you want to buy a piece of sports equipment so you can ride at FEI and collect some fancy colored ribbons? Or, do you want to learn to be a horseman/horseperson?

If #1, then you have to pay the going rate, mortgage your house and perhaps go broke because competing at FEI is not cheap. If #2, then you have a lot more options and leeway in terms of horses out there.

Personally, I would never pay more than $30k for a horse (preferably less) and would try to max out the horse (age, abilities, competition record, etc) that I can get for that price.

Horses are one mis-step away from being dog food…well, I guess Alpo doesn’t use horse meat for dog food any more…but you get the drift.

I would continue to lease the horse you are currently riding, and continue to take lessons. All the while continue to look for a younger, much lower-priced horse. I would buy a 3-4 yr old horse that has been backed but has not had much more training. This would be a horse that you can bring along yourself and spend the balance of your budget on lessons with more than one instructor. Different people bring different POV’s and different teaching skills.

[Roberta]

It is a great testament to the horse that people inquired about him in Florida - that would have been in 2023? And it is also wonderful to hear that you believe whole heartedly in your trainer. However, the truth of the matter is that this horse is too expensive for you. Period. Please do not buy a horse if you cannot afford the costs of things going wrong - i.e., colic, pulled suspensory, etc. At this point in this horse’s life, he is now in his “maintenance” years. He will need to have therapies and treatments to maintain his price point level - expensive therapies. You are not in a position to do that as you have already stated. Please, please be fair to this horse. If you cannot maintain him at his current level and into his old age, then keep leasing him and hope that the owner will see that you would be an excellent next owner by dropping the price to something that you can afford. And don’t forget - your trainer will most likely receive a 10% commission from the sale of the horse, so $25,000.00. It behooves them to keep the sale price at 250K. Last but not least, prices on horses are dropping. The Europeans are complaining that they are not selling horses at those prices anymore. Asking price and sales price are very, very different.