Pricing question

[Scribbler]

I was going to say something similar. I can see the appeal in buying a made horse and being a passenger. Indeed if you are primarily in lessons or even a lease, the situation creates that orientation to a horse. No one wants you to be training new things into a lesson horse!

But if you want to ride effectively at higher levels you need to make that conceptual jump from being a student/passenger to being part of the training team. Every time you get on a horse you are teaching him for better or worse. With your own horse that you are the primary rider you will obviously still need some very directed instruction in how to train and advance your horse. But it’s you who will have the biggest impact on his way of going.

The dividing line between student and owner, or beginner and intermediate/advanced is the ability to be a major part of your horses daily training. Rather than think training is something you leave to the professionals and you only need to work on yourself.

[pluvinel]

@Scribbler

The dividing line between student and owner, or beginner and intermediate/advanced is the ability to be a major part of your horses daily training. Rather than think training is something you leave to the professionals and you only need to work on yourself.

BINGO!!!

Every professional starts as a clueless noob. They work, they make mistakes, make more mistakes, learn something…and tried s’more. Eventually, the mistakes led to learning how to do things and how NOT do do things.

This quote is attributed to Thomas Edison
“I have not failed 10,000 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 10,000 ways will not work. When I have eliminated the ways that will not work, I will find the way that will work.”

With your own horse, you can try different things, exercise your judgement, and learn if your “equestrian tact” has risen to the situation at hand.

A greater horseman than me (Alois Podhajski) said, “My horses, my teachers.” If you listen to the horse you can learn to become a horseperson.

I know of people who were GIVEN an upper level horse (GP) that they found difficult and could not ride. I have the ad for this horse previously listed for $200k.

If this horse did not sell in Wellington at that price, then he is way overpriced. You don’t say where you are.

I would decide on how much $$$ you can afford. Tell your trainer a number 20% less than that. And then wait. You may find the horse’s price majikally drops.

You are not insulting the horse, the trainer, or owner. You say that in your situation, you can only afford $X and you are so sorry you cannot afford Wonder Horse. Then just wait…and look around for a youngster to buy. Maybe the karmic winds will blow in your direction.

[Posting_Trot]

I don’t want to pile on because I think you’ve gotten some excellent advice from a lot of people who have a lot more experience riding, showing, training, and buying and selling horses that are at this horse’s level than I do.

I’m definitely on the side of not putting yourself into debt to buy this horse. If you can’t buy the horse outright and still have money left over for boarding, training, and showing, (not to mention potential veterinary bills), you’re asking for (financial) trouble.

I understand that you love the horse and feel that he’s taught you a lot, and that your riding has progressed. And that’s great. And you’ve paid $60,000 for that opportunity over the year, plus (I assume) absorbing the costs of training and showing.

But I’ll say, for that money, you could have bought a fancy prospect to bring up the levels. That’s fine, and you’ve learned a lot, but you might want to think about the horses you won’t be able to buy–and the experiences you won’t have–if you go into debt for this horse.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[lazaret]

Just a note that some people seem to be misunderstanding the program that many trainers prepping clients for the FEI have - which is, a lesson every day, which is “full training” on the bill.

I don’t know why everyone is taking this massive leap (again) that buying a horse with some training means someone is expecting to show up on alternating Saturdays and ride the grand prix. That’s generally not it at all.

Don’t go into debt, but there’s nothing wrong with having the goal of purchasing a horse that can do the GP, and figuring out how to get there. Most people who get to that level have the advantage of having a horse, or a person who can teach the horse first, in their corner on the way up.

[pluvinel]

@lazaret

Don’t go into debt, but there’s nothing wrong with having the goal of purchasing a horse that can do the GP, and figuring out how to get there. Most people who get to that level have the advantage of having a horse, or a person who can teach the horse first, in their corner on the way up.

The question in my mind is whether this person wants to “compete” at GP…which requires a horse that is competitive… or just wants to have a horse that can teach her the FEI and eventually GP movements in her journey as a horseperson…WITHOUT needing competition ribbons.

These ar two comepletely different goals. I haven’t seen a post clarifying the OP’s goals.

[aa1977]

More great comments and insights, wow this group is incredible!

My goals are just to learn as much as possible about this amazing sport on a horse who is safe (and hopefully patient!) - growing up I rode hunter and a little dressage, but I could only afford lessons, I was never in a position to own and never got close to real dressage experiences but always wanted to. Now that I have the time and more resources, I would love to become a proficient rider first and foremost- shows and ribbons are definitely not the primary motivation, but I’m goal-driven and I love the idea of working up the levels gradually. Being able to say that I rode a Grand Prix would be such an incredible accomplishment, but I would say that is more of a fun thing to dream about and slooooooowly work towards higher level work as I “earn” it. The reason I love this horse so much is that in addition to being really safe and sweet and generous, I also feel like he is teaching me something new every time we ride. I also could not have more respect for my trainer, and she thinks we are a good team

[NaturallyHappy]

Maybe offer what you can and ask it the lease fee already paid could apply to the purchase price??? Try not to think w your heart, which is so very easy to do w horses.

[pluvinel]

@aa1977

I would really appreciate any comments or advice, and thank you!!!

I guess I will continue to advocate for a lower priced, younger horse that you can bring along, and continue to lease Wonder Horse to be your teacher.

[NaturallyHappy]

@pluvinel

I guess I will continue to advocate for a lower priced, younger horse that you can bring along, and continue to lease Wonder Horse to be your teacher.

This is much better advice than mine, I’m sure.

[Feathered_Feet]

I’ll be the dissenting voice and say that I would not recommend OP get a young horse at this time. She struggled through third level and wants to learn and compete, presumably at the FEI levels since she is asking about likelihood this horse can do GP.

OP, the best thing you can do for your dressage journey is buy a schoolmaster - the best you can afford and learn what collection and the connection are supposed to feel like. You don’t have to master everything through all the GP before taking the leap to bringing a young horse up yourself, but if you have the resources, I would recommend mastering fourth level at least, then buying a young horse. (In my experience, once you have fourth level down, you have just about all the building blocks for everything else - with piaffe/passage being a notable exception - and the horse’s own limitations are more likely to be the issue than your lack of experience.)

Can you bring a young horse up the levels without having learned collection and connection yourself? Sure, people do it. But most people don’t - they struggle and struggle at 2nd and 3rd, scraping by with scores in the low 60s. No shame there, but if you can swing it, the better way is to learn how it’s supposed to feel from a horse that can teach you.

[SillyHorse]

@Feathered_Feet

I’ll be the dissenting voice and say that I would not recommend OP get a young horse at this time. She struggled through third level and wants to learn and compete, presumably at the FEI levels since she is asking about likelihood this horse can do GP.

OP, the best thing you can do for your dressage journey is buy a schoolmaster - the best you can afford and learn what collection and the connection are supposed to feel like.

I definitely agree, and do not recommend that the OP purchase a young horse. She needs a schoolmaster. I think she knows this very well, and that’s why she’s considering buying the horse she’s leasing.

OP, I believe you can find an upper level schoolmaster, maybe not GP but probably PSG, for lots less money than is being asked for your lease horse. Or you can continue leasing, this horse or another that can teach you what you want to learn. My fourth-level schoolmaster took me from struggling at second level to showing successfully at fourth, and schooling the PSG.

[pluvinel]

@Feathered_Feet

I’ll be the dissenting voice and say that I would not recommend OP get a young horse at this time.

@SillyHorse

I definitely agree, and do not recommend that the OP purchase a young horse. She needs a schoolmaster.

Well, since I am the proponent of getting a “young horse”…I need to chime in here.

There is a BIG difference between becoming a horseman by learning to handle young equine livestock and learning to ride a dressage test. In my mind, these are whole different skill sets.

I am not suggesting that a person just starting out get a young horse without supervision and someone in the background who can guide and help OP when questions or problems arise.

OP seems to have a trainer she trusts that can provide that help and supervision. She also has the Wonder Horse as the schoolmaster. Why not have BOTH. A young horse to learn horsemanship skills and the Wonder Horse to learn the dressage movements. These are two totally different skills requiring different types of knowlege.

In retrospect, the first horse I bought 42 years ago was a schoolmaster. He was a 15 yr old advanced level eventer on sale for $15k. I was willing to pay $5k. One day at work, I mentioned I was going to look at the horse. One of the wiley old codger mechanics said, “If you’re willing to pay $5k, offer $3.” So I went to look at the horse and I offered $3500 or 23% of the “list price.” Owner took a big gulp and accepted my offer. I actually think she just wanted the horse gone.

Based on a 2% rate of inflation for 42 years, the Excel future value function says that $15k horse would now be priced at $35k, and my purchase outlay would be ~$8k. Using these ratios I could see offering ~$60k for Wonder Horse…or just simply saying that $60k is all OP can afford.

I think good elderly schoolmasters are out there for reasonable prices. There are owners who are willing to let their horses go to a good home for an affordable price because they know that the horse is not competitive, but can still offer a lot of knowledge to the right person. You just need to network up the yin-yang and be known as a “good home.”

[NaturallyHappy]

I always say…they are worth what someone is willing to pay😀.

[pluvinel]

@NaturallyHappy

I always say…they are worth what someone is willing to pay

Bingo!!! And if the horse did not sell this past season in the mecca of horse shows, then the market (Wellington) has spoken and said the the asking price is too high.

If anyone goes to auctions, the general guidance for bidders is to get a mental number for a price for whatever you are interested in buying and stop bidding when the bids hits your number. Getting your “affordability” number clear in your head before bidding is a way to not get caught up in the emotion and pressure of the auction bidding process.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

There is a BIG difference between becoming a horseman by learning to handle young equine livestock and learning to ride a dressage test. In my mind, these are whole different skill sets.

Learning from a schoolmaster does not equal learning to ride a dressage test. Wherever did you get that idea? Wouldn’t you agree that one should know how to ride a movement well before trying to teach it to a youngster?

[fivestrideline]

People get caught up in the “you’re not really a horseperson until you train your own youngsters and do all the care and blah blah blah” which is just thinly veiled sour grapes over someone supposedly “buying their way” by purchasing a trained horse. If all you can afford is youngstock or that’s your desired route that’s FINE, but that doesn’t mean it’s the best or only correct way to do things.

It’s a fact that the best way to learn to ride at a level is to learn at the start on a horse that is confirmed at that level. Once you know what it’s supposed to feel like, then you are much more likely to be able to train a youngster to do what you want. It isn’t impossible to learn alongside a young horse, but it is cheaper, quicker, easier, and far less confusing for you AND the horse if the rider has some idea of what they are asking.

[pluvinel]

@fivestrideline

People get caught up in the “you’re not really a horseperson until you train your own youngsters and do all the care and blah blah blah” which is just thinly veiled sour grapes over someone supposedly “buying their way” by purchasing a trained horse. If all you can afford is youngstock or that’s your desired route that’s FINE, but that doesn’t mean it’s the best or only correct was to do things.

I paid more for a 4 year-old stallion than I did for my condo and/or my F-250…so I am not saying not to spend money on a horse you want AND can afford.

@fivestrideline

It’s a fact that the best way to learn to ride at a level is to learn at the start on a horse that is confirmed at that level.

And I am saying that riding a dressage movement is a whole 'nuther set of skills to learning how to handle young stock.

The skills are not mutually exclusive…either you learn to ride OR learn to handle young horses. I am saying it is BOTH. But a schoolmaster, by definition does not offer the same training challenges of a young horse.

People would ask me why I bought a stallion if I was not planning to breed. I said if one wants to become a stallion handler, one needs a stallion. Those horses let you earn the PhD of horsemanship.

[SillyHorse]

My trainer was given a middle-aged OTTB when she was 15. She didn’t know much about dressage, and he knew nothing. She managed (with lots of help from the ground) to train him through GP and got her gold medal with with him. Regardless, she’s a strong proponent of getting the best trained horse you can afford when you’re learning. She did it the hard way, but doesn’t think that everyone else has to.

[pluvinel]

@SillyHorse

My trainer was given a middle-aged OTTB when she was 15. She didn’t know much about dressage, and he knew nothing. She managed (with lots of help from the ground) to train him through GP and got her gold medal with with him. Regardless, she’s a strong proponent of getting the best trained horse you can afford when you’re learning. She did it the hard way, but doesn’t think that everyone else has to.

And I am saying that she probably learned a whole lot by bringing that horse along. And that the skills she learned by training the TB are transferable to other horses.

[SillyHorse]

@pluvinel

@SillyHorse

My trainer was given a middle-aged OTTB when she was 15. She didn’t know much about dressage, and he knew nothing. She managed (with lots of help from the ground) to train him through GP and got her gold medal with with him. Regardless, she’s a strong proponent of getting the best trained horse you can afford when you’re learning. She did it the hard way, but doesn’t think that everyone else has to.

And I am saying that she probably learned a whole lot by bringing that horse along. And that the skills she learned by training the TB are transferable to other horses.

Of course she did. She also had the makings of an accomplished trainer, even at that age. I know I didn’t, and still don’t. Most of us don’t.