Pricing question

Sure, but none of that is specifically relevant to OP. OP says they want to ride at GP, not handle stallions or bring along a young horse. Not that they’ve ruled those out, but if their goal is to “learn to ride at GP”, they need a horse that’s going to help them get there.

The horse in question is not likely that horse, at least not at the price being asked. Neither is a youngster.

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Another alternative would be finding a fairly priced older schoolmaster nearing the end of their career with the understanding that there would likely be some additional maintenance expenses.

I have a friend who gave away her 20+ GP gelding practically for free because he couldn’t pass a prepurchase exam.

I had the luxury of half leasing my trainer’s 20 year old GP mare for a few months. It didn’t necessarily change my riding but I got to feel the movements and collection I would never have achieved on my own horse.

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I will keep this group updated on what happens with Wonder Horse! (And will ask lots of other questions here as I keep learning and training - the wealth of knowledge in this group is incredible!!!)

I had a frank discussion with my financial advisor about what my upper limit can be without taking out a second mortgage (!) and that’s what I can and will offer. I had a GREAT conversation with my trainer about it and she could not have been more understanding :slight_smile: I would love to keep riding him if it works out, for the reasons you all have smartly summarized - he’s teaching me a LOT, and my trainer will keep taking him up as high as he can go so I don’t think I will feel badly for “wasting” his potential as long as she is involved in his education!

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I’ll just add to this that IME the most expensive quality of a horse is “potential.” Potential does not mean actual, and sometimes potential is even more expensive than a horse already at that level that has clearly reached the top of their game. Add to this, most horses “with potential” won’t reach it. Judge the actual-of-today and try not to get caught up in the dreams when you’re evaluating what offer to make. :heart:

Good luck to you in your riding endeavors, OP!

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Being…erm…thrifty (eg., cheap) I would consider an offer that is half what your advisor said you can afford. This would give you some “padding” in case of any medical or training needs that might emerge in the future.

The advanced eventer that I described buying for 23% of the “list” price ended up dying of a lipoma causing a strangulated intestine about 5 years after I bought him. He was put down as the vets did not recommend surgery based on his age and where the strangulation occured.

Just cautionary tale so you understand that whatever you pay for this horse, you should be willing to consider these funds can be flushed down the toilet in a blink of the eye due to some unforseen medical event.

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A much better rider than me said the following

O’Connor says that he feels it is critical for riders to learn about horses before they begin to compete and get specialized. “Riders specialize too early,” said O’Connor. “It is not a good thing. I believe that riders benefit from a multi-discipline base.”

O’Connor says that being open to diversity in training can only enhance your skills as a rider. “You will learn something on a reining horse that will improve your turn on the haunches,” said O’Connor. “Too many riders want to learn to compete before they learn to ride.”

— David O’Connor - 2015

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What relevance does this have? The OP has indicated they are a lifelong rider recently transitioned to dressage and eager to invest in this specific discipline.

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…??? Unclear how this is relevant.

ETA: @pluvinel I’m not sure if you’re aware how condescending your posts are coming across. Relevant, perhaps, in other threads but not here. OP has said nothing to indicate that they are a poor rider or someone just wanting accolades without putting in the work. In fact they are a lifelong rider who has worked off lessons in the past, so I believe they have a bit more “hands on” experience than a lot of people. Just because someone now has the money to lease, keep a horse in training, and even talk about the prices being thrown around here doesn’t mean they aren’t a good horseperson or skipped learning to ride or whatever. O’Connor is correct, but he’s not talking about OP here.

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Other people have chimed in with more experience about what the OP should look for in a prospect, but I have to throw in regarding the price that it’s possible that the owner isn’t itching to sell this horse at all–all horses are for sale, but that doesn’t mean that the owner is very actively trying to sell the horse, if you know what I mean. This could be a “I don’t really need to sell this horse right now, but it would be nice if I could get…”

OP, I don’t need to tell you this, but it’s worth remembering that the horse world contains people for whom spending $250k on a horse–that could go lame tomorrow and who will possibly depreciate in value if the training and showing doesn’t go as planned–is a drop in the bucket. The fact that you don’t feel this way–God knows, to me, $250K is money I would claw onto and throw in an index fund, to be honest–indicates it is too much for you to part with. This isn’t something that’s shameful, rather it’s a reality check. Add up the initial cost, training, board, possible vet and farrier bills, showing costs and take a good hard look at that figure, and calculate the opportunity costs of what you’re sacrificing. Might a less costly path in the sport give you equal joy (and it doesn’t have to be bringing up a “baby”)?

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I can understand a trainer wanting to keep the horse at her barn. But…something about this seems a bit off. Horse has been at this price for a year-ish. Has anyone ever come to try the horse? Is owner troubled by the fact that horse was in Wellington, people asked about him and no further action? This raises other questions for me…soundness, training issues, trainer not doing right by client (s).

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Could be the owner is convinced they have a $250k horse, and thus any interested parties haven’t gone further because the market isn’t supporting him at that price, no matter what the trainer is doing. Or, the trainer is enjoying the training board + showing opportunities the horse presents. Or maybe the owner is being “forced” to sell their horse (disinterested SO, money issues, etc) but they really don’t want to sell - so the horse is priced outrageously and leased out instead. One can speculate forever.

Either way, I hope OP enjoys learning from this horse until that changes or they are ready to move on! Preferably without making risky financial decisions :laughing:

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Well, there is this thing called projection. Perhaps it is you who are personally feeling that my posts are condescending. I have gotten several :heart: to my posts from the OP, so if she thinks my comments are condescending, then I eagerly await to be told…by her.

Otherwise, my comments…or should I say, David O’Connor’s comments… stand as stated.

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I mean…because one costs $50k a year and both cost $2k a month in training bills plus another some amount for board, shoes, vet, etc?

Why not have both? because resources aren’t infinite?

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And what is the matter with offering an opinon when OP has asked for opinions? I was offering a suggestion for an alternative that is different than just simply to buy or not to buy Wonder Horse.

OP can put my suggestions in the round file if she so chooses.

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I want to add one aspect of having a horse that retails for this much.

Typically, at this level and price point, owners will have insurance that includes “loss of use.” It’s important to recognize that if the owner wants to collect the payout if the horse can no longer function at its intended (insured) level, the horse has to be euthanized. It doesn’t matter if the horse would actually still make a perfectly functional low level mount for someone.

If the horse’s price is a stretch for the OP, they’re far more likely to take out an insurance policy that contains a loss of use clause. The insurance company, ultimately, doesn’t care if you love the horse or not, they just have rules about when they’ll pay out.

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Majority medical and mortality definitely (another expense to budget for). Loss of use, in my experience, less so. It’s tremendously expensive, increasingly challenging to get with digital x-rays showing every minor issue (which they then write in as an exclusion), and generally not available once a horse turns 12. I only know of two people carrying loss of use on riding horses right now, and one is a breeding stallion (who has fertility related coverage).

Also, in case OP is considering it, many loss of use policies contain a provision that allows you to take a reduced payout and keep the horse (presumably to retire him). If you aren’t getting that option, ask for it.

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I don’t know of anyone who has loss of use coverage anymore. Lots of companies don’t even offer it anymore because it’s just not worth it for either side

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Re: insurance, I think it’s a bell curve. At the lower and higher values people aren’t as likely to have insurance. If the more expensive horses are insured, it’s usually for less than full value because it gets very very expensive. Nothing says that just because you have a $250k horse you have to get $250k worth of mortality coverage. You might just want enough to have $15-20k of major medical coverage and maybe $40-50k of mortality to put towards another horse in the somewhat unlikely event the horse dies in a way that’s reimbursable. If you do get $250k of coverage, be prepared to justify it and have the claims adjuster push back on that valuation if the horse dies. Most likely the horse will retire, age out of insurance, or suffer some career-limiting injury rather than dropping dead in a way that results in a payout…because horses.

But anyway. I think OP is asking the right questions and has gotten some good info. Definitely figure out what you feel comfortable spending and do some comparison-shopping to see what else is in your price range, rather than letting this decision be about your lease horse only. And if you do buy, don’t skip a PPE by an independent vet!

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I’m glad you mentioned this! I don’t think anyone else has.

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One final note–although there are certainly unethical trainers who will use their clients as ATMs, even if a trainer is wonderful, ethical, and a great teacher, that doesn’t always mean they will give the best financial advice for their clients regarding horse-buying. They don’t have the client’s financials in front of them, first of all, and second of all, they will naturally prioritize the client’s progress in the sport, perhaps more than is financially wise.

As well as the horse world having different levels of wealth, there’s also a big variance in comfort of levels of debt. I’m not comfortable with debt, full stop, and the only reason to go into it in my system of values is because it’s necessary (like an emergency repair or medical bill). There are many people I’ve met who I thought were very wealthy and after knowing them for some time, while they were pretty well-off, they were also very comfortable with high levels of debt in a way I am not–so the advice you are getting may be based on the assumption you are one of those people.

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