Between the small tour and big tour can be the Alps. Some horses never are settled enough when asked for the one tempis and some don’t have the “sit” for piaffe. You can never tell until you are training the GP movements whether he will get there. The talent might be there but I’ve seen a lot of horses not being able to make the leap mentally.
I don’t know this guy but I would definitely think long and hard about a horse that costs that much - even if you are extremely wealthy. A lot of confirmed GP horses are less than that and getting into huge debt over a horse would scare me, but I’m very conservative.
Start “shopping” online for PSG and GP horses by doing research. Check out scores and asking prices as well as health considerations. That will give you an idea of what he is worth now as a Prix St George horse. Also check out his scores. You are considering buying the horse that he is now and not as he could be.
Good luck! I know this is incredibly hard for you since you have a lot of emotion invested. Hugs to you!
My gut says that’s too much money for a PSG horse. Watching the upper-level horses in my barn-and there are several at PSG and I1, it’s a far longer way from GP than you might think.
OP, have you ridden up the levels (training, first and second) or just started at third and not been happy with your results with this horse? There’s a lot of value for a rider in slogging through the lower levels at least once. I think as a rider you miss out on a lot of valuable stuff for you (not only the building blocks but also things like ring craft,) by not doing so and jumping straight into showing at a mid-level.
There’s a really nice, very sound, very kind and sane horse for sale in my barn who is making his PSG debut in a couple of weeks,and will undoubtedly score in the mid 60’s or above or he wouldn’t be going out. He’s half the price that you are looking at. Others in the barn have bought super-nice I1 and PSG horses recently in the $100K range, both here and in Europe.
Frankly, I love them all, but they are all way out of my league. And boy, is there a lot of pressure to succeed, both internally and externally, when you’ve spent that much money on a horse.
Don’t misunderstand. She had lots of help and rode plenty of school masters along the way. My main point though, that seems to have gotten lost, is that she does not believe that the route she had to take is a good route for most people.
The OP did not express interest in bringing along a youngster. She wants to learn to ride the GP. She will have better chance of accomplishing that by riding a horse that can teach her rather than an unknown quantity.
What i understand is that it’s about expediency. Though i’m not a competitive person by any stretch of the imagination, i think i get it. Esp for an adult amateur. If your goal is to get to X then why not the shortest route. This is a linear approach.
I don’t think that it’s sour grapes though to take a different direction…to bring along a young one. Or 10 young ones. This is a spherical approach.
edit: OH, and the price is relative. If 250k is to OP as 25k is to others, and you want that horse…doesn’t seem like a ‘bad thing’ at all. Which is why i suggested for her to run the idea by someone close…someone who has a good idea of what she can easily afford and perhaps also her commitment quotient
The sour grapes comment was in response to the insinuation that the person who buys and trains their own young horses is somehow a better horseperson than someone who buys a trained horse.
In reality, it’s entirely a separate path, and often it is less confusing, less stressful, and more rewarding for both horse and rider if one of the pair knows what they’re doing.
If the person who buys and trains a young horse all the way does it well, I am sorry to disagree, she is a better horse person….
A person who simply buys a finished horse saves a lot of time to reach his goals but by saving this time he misses out to be a better horse person…
and you are welcome to kill me for this opinion but i will not change it….
Absolutely. If you can buy a young horse and bring it along to a certain level, you are hands down a better trainer and all around horseman than someone that cannot but buys a horse at that level.
However very many ammies do buy a young horse and never really get past Training or First because the job of training a horse while you are learning is so huge.
It’s also true that someone who sinks all their cash and time and effort into a young horse and stalls out at first isn’t necessarily developing skills to ride or train at GP.
If we reframe the question as: what is the most efficient way to be competitive at FEI tests? Then we probably have to take a look at the answer to the question for hunters, which has the most finely tuned support machinery for ammies and juniors to compete.
People have multiple horses, lease horses, practice horses, wrap around trainer support and trainer warmups at shows. Obviously you have to be a very good rider over fences, but most ammies.still don’t make it to the higher levels without a huge trainer infrastructure.
The hitch is that this takes serious wealth
The OP is asking two questions. First, is it worth going into significant debt to buy a high end horse? The pretty unanimous answer is “no.” Doesn’t matter if the horse is $20k $250k or $1 million, if you need to contemplate borrowing money to buy the horse, you can’t afford him. Second, is an 11 year old Iberian still struggling with tempe changes and scoring mediocre at PSG likely to become a competitive GP horse before he ages out and needs to step down a bit? My guess is no, unless something drastically changes in terms of maintenance or training. Assuming he’s currently sound and his trainer is competent, this might just be this horse hitting his upper limits.
But I don’t think OP is going to get to ride GP anytime soon by buying a young horse and training it “up the levels.” The OP will learn a lot and eventually be a better horseperson and trainer but the chance that a rider challenged at Third will get their first young horse from Training to GP in a decade is very slim. I say this from much observation.
And then please explain how somebody who wants to get his silver Medal and buys a FEI schoolmaster who he boards with an accomplished trainer reaches the same level of horsemanship as somebody who gets a 3 year old, gets on him as the first person and developes him step by step until he reaches FEI level…
I’d say the person who backs and makes their own upper level horse is already dealing with a skill set far beyond most adult ammies, and that they likely put in hours riding school masters in lessons or leases to learn those skills. Maybe even competing on these horses. Maybe as a junior.
It’s a very rare person who could train a 3yo to FEI levels without ever having ridden at that level before. Learning things yourself while trying to explain them to a young horse at the same time is really not easy. It’s entirely possible that progress would be slow enough they’d never get there, and it would still take a considerable amount of assistance from other professionals to ensure things are being done right. The person who rides the schoolmaster first is learning plenty of valuable tools that they could then take with them to train a young horse more effectively than if they started from zero, if that was a goal of theirs.
Good horsemanship is not a linear spectrum. Good horsemen have a variety of tools in their toolboxes that can be acquired a lot of different ways. Not everyone aspires to have the “can ride unpredictable and athletic young FEI horses” tool in their toolbox, which is a valid choice. They may outshine the young horse trainers in other areas. Obviously the person who can both ride at FEI levels and train young horses to get there is an exceptional horseman, but those people are pretty rare and it’s not a realistic goal for most amateurs.
It’s a different level of experience, but doesn’t make them better.
You can bring along a million horses and be an awful horseman who puts well-being below competitive success or goals.
You can buy a schoolmaster and learn ride at GP and be an excellent horseman who takes the best care of their horses and knows all the ins-and-outs.
You can even buy the schoolmaster, learn to ride GP, and buy a young horse next. If we maintain that riding is probably the smallest part of horsemanship then we must maintain that it doesn’t automatically make you better to buy a greenie. More experienced in a certain area? Sure. But not necessarily better.
OP - I was in Wellington this past winter and the trainer I was with had a horse for sale. Confirmed GP and imported from Germany. He was listed for $400k and sold for $250k. The owner was only asking $400k because that’s apparently what she paid when importing him. Nothing wrong on the vet check or anything, it’s just what the buyer offered/was willing to pay. There is SO much wiggle room in these prices. Horse prices are incredibly subjective, so take them with a grain of salt. Others are right: if this horse was really great and fairly priced, he would have sold in FL. Good horses move quickly in Wellington, especially in season.
Another thing worth mentioning is your trainer mentioned she would love for the horse to stay at her barn because she also loves him. I got caught up in a horrible sales situation where my inexperience was taken advantage of. Short story - like you I got really attached to a seasoned horse who was helping me learn. He wasn’t priced quite as high as yours, but pretty close. The trainer loved him and she orchestrated my search so that he was always the best horse. It only became clear in hindsight and I felt really taken advantage of. I bought him and then she spent most of the time riding him. He has since sold, and I learned a lot of hard lessons.
As a person, I loved that trainer. She’s a wonderful human. But it’s no secret that in this world there are trainers who will “push” their clients to buy horses they either a) want in their barn or b) they know the client really won’t be able to ride/train/show but they will, so they convince them to buy. That’s what happened to me. I bought the horse, and then the trainer rode him most of the time to “get him to GP” and by the time I would get on he was exhausted. Six figure purchase + $3k a month and I barely got anything out of it.
I wish you all the best. It’s really wonderful to have a deep connection with a horse. And sometimes it feels like you won’t ever find anything better. But you will.
Here you go with the binary world view. I never said the word “better.” I am the proponent that a young horse will teach you skills that a made horse won’t. Having a young horse presents questions that a made horse won’t and will EXPAND the knowledge of any rider thus growing their equestrian toolbox.
I suggested that if possible OP get a young horse to bring along while leasing Wonder Horse. Or if the price is right, and the economics work out, buy Wonder Horse as “the professor” and get a youngster to bring along.
Back upthread around post #45 or so, OP laid out her goals, so let’s revisit them which is what I was addressing.
OP seems like a very grounded person who knows what she wants and is looking for some alternative points of view…which COTH has in spades.
Maybe we should define the term horsemanship……
what does it really mean? If you start a lot of horses and develope them to let’s say 3 rd level and then sell them…. Are you a bad horse person because you sell these horses and develope them only for money purposes?
On the other hand are you a good horse person because you spend a lot of money on a finished horse and call the vet and/or saddle fitter, chiropracticer whenever a problem arises???
For me personally a high level of horsemanship means that you know a lot about the mentality of horses. You are able to deal with most of the problems which might occur with horses yourself. You are able to find a boarding situation for your horse which suits your horse and you. You can manage your horse on a daily basis without overworking it and you maintain a good bond with him resulting in the horse trusting you…. You are able to recognize if something is wrong and you are able to find a solution for it…
