Problem solved - barn manager not honoring contract due to pony's behavior

[hurricane07]

UPDATE: we’ve been let out of our lease with our deposit fully refunded and will be moving to a new barn shortly. We’ll find a new house that is located closer to work and/or our horses. Problem solved. Thanks everyone.

Hi fellow horse people,

I’m looking for input on an issue my family is having with a barn manager. We’re moving to a new state, so we recently shipped a couple horses to a boarding barn while we sell our old farm and buy a new one. Forgive me if I leave some details vague, as I’m trying to maintain anonymity for both my family and the barn in question. The horses have been at this barn for a little over a month.

My very geriatric and chronically crippled pony allegedly mounted the mare who he is pastured with (it’s only the two of them plus two minis in their paddock). According to the barn manager, her and 2 other barn workers were unable to pull him off. This behavior is extremely out of character for the pony; he’s been pastured with mares before with zero issues. We consulted with a theriogenologist who believes that it is transient behavior and is dominance-related, just like any other conflict behavior.

The barn manager is distraught. I don’t know if it’s because the barn is in a southern state where sexual relations are a taboo subject and the BM is anthropomorphizing our pony, or what. She’s of the opinion that because he mounted once, he is now a danger to other horses including geldings. The mare has been in raging heat ever since my pony arrived and the barn manager seemed fine with the fact that the mare was making moves on my pony until this happened. I personally would’ve separated them long before this happened because I don’t like horses to fixate on pasture-mates, but what’s done is done. Both mare and pony are 100% fine with no injuries.

The barn manager has given us three options: one, we must remove the pony from the property by the end of the week. Two, we could pay $1200/month for our two horses to be placed in a private paddock with a run-in shed (this costs $450 more than what we pay now for full care pasture board for the 2 horses and $250 more than if the pony were on stall board with private paddock turnout). Three, we could pay our normal rate but do self-care in the private paddock (again, we’re moving, doing self-care while traveling between two states isn’t feasible for several more months); we’d also have to provide our own hay which I think is ridiculous.

The problem with leaving this barn entirely is that we’ve already put down a sizable deposit on the barn’s house, which we will be renting beginning in July. We’d be willing to leave if the barn manager would give us our deposit back, but she’s refusing to do so. For this reason, it’s in our best interest to maintain a positive relationship with her. The pony has a lot of health issues and needs to be medicated twice a day (barn manager charges $10 a day to medicate), so we exclusively rented the house to be close to him and medicate him ourselves.

To me, mounting behavior is the same as any other conflict behavior. If I were the barn manager, I would take it as a sign that herd dynamics aren’t working out and would make some changes. And I certainly wouldn’t put that cost on the horse owners. I feel as if it’s her responsibility to move horses around until conflicts are resolved, and to honor the terms of our contract regarding price and services offered. The contract has no clauses about the barn being able to change or terminate the contract due to horse behavior or any other extenuating circumstances.

We’re dead set on staying where we are unless the barn manager decides to give us our deposit back. We also can’t afford to pay any more than what we’re paying now. So, how should we approach this situation? What are the barn’s legal rights? Are they able to take a lien on the horses if we continue to pay only what we are required to per the contract? Is the barn manager trying to blackmail/scam us? What is going on here? I would love some input from commercial barn owners and managers. Thanks!

[LookinForSpace]

@hurricane07

Hi fellow horse people,

I’m looking for input on an issue my family is having with a barn manager. We’re moving to a new state, so we recently shipped a couple horses to a boarding barn while we sell our old farm and buy a new one. Forgive me if I leave some details vague, as I’m trying to maintain anonymity for both my family and the barn in question. The horses have been at this barn for a little over a month.

My very geriatric and chronically crippled pony allegedly mounted the mare who he is pastured with (it’s only the two of them plus two minis in their paddock). According to the barn manager, her and 2 other barn workers were unable to pull him off. This behavior is extremely out of character for the pony; he’s been pastured with mares before with zero issues. We consulted with a theriogenologist who believes that it is transient behavior and is dominance-related, just like any other conflict behavior.

The barn manager is distraught. I don’t know if it’s because the barn is in a southern state where sexual relations are a taboo subject and the BM is anthropomorphizing our pony, or what. She’s of the opinion that because he mounted once, he is now a danger to other horses including geldings. The mare has been in raging heat ever since my pony arrived and the barn manager seemed fine with the fact that the mare was making moves on my pony until this happened. I personally would’ve separated them long before this happened because I don’t like horses to fixate on pasture-mates, but what’s done is done. Both mare and pony are 100% fine with no injuries.

The barn manager has given us three options: one, we must remove the pony from the property by the end of the week. Two, we could pay $1200/month for our two horses to be placed in a private paddock with a run-in shed (this costs $450 more than what we pay now for full care pasture board for the 2 horses and $250 more than if the pony were on stall board with private paddock turnout). Three, we could pay our normal rate but do self-care in the private paddock (again, we’re moving, doing self-care while traveling between two states isn’t feasible for several more months); we’d also have to provide our own hay which I think is ridiculous.

The problem with leaving this barn entirely is that we’ve already put down a sizable deposit on the barn’s house, which we will be renting beginning in July. We’d be willing to leave if the barn manager would give us our deposit back, but she’s refusing to do so. For this reason, it’s in our best interest to maintain a positive relationship with her. The pony has a lot of health issues and needs to be medicated twice a day (barn manager charges $10 a day to medicate), so we exclusively rented the house to be close to him and medicate him ourselves.

To me, mounting behavior is the same as any other conflict behavior. If I were the barn manager, I would take it as a sign that herd dynamics aren’t working out and would make some changes. And I certainly wouldn’t put that cost on the horse owners. I feel as if it’s her responsibility to move horses around until conflicts are resolved, and to honor the terms of our contract regarding price and services offered. The contract has no clauses about the barn being able to change or terminate the contract due to horse behavior or any other extenuating circumstances.

We’re dead set on staying where we are unless the barn manager decides to give us our deposit back. We also can’t afford to pay any more than what we’re paying now. So, how should we approach this situation? What are the barn’s legal rights? Are they able to take a lien on the horses if we continue to pay only what we are required to per the contract? Is the barn manager trying to blackmail/scam us? What is going on here? I would love some input from commercial barn owners and managers. Thanks!

I’m not a lawyer, but I doubt that you can strong-arm the barn manager into seeing things your way, regardless of who’s right or wrong. What does your contract say about giving notice when leaving? What does it say about the house rental? Are you committed to a lease for X number of months?

I think your best bet would be to find a new barn for both horses, give your 30 days’ notice in writing and move them before the 30 day deadline, and also notify her in writing that you will not be renting the house if your contract allows you an out or doesn’t require X number of months. If you can do that, you may have to argue the return of the deposit after you leave. But if you’ve signed a six-month or one-year or whatever term of rental for the house, I have no idea how you’d get out of that and get your deposit back.

It may be very worthwhile to consult an attorney familiar with the applicable laws in your state. But LEAVING IMHO is most likely the smartest option!

[LookinForSpace]

@hurricane07

Three, we could pay our normal rate but do self-care in the private paddock (again, we’re moving, doing self-care while traveling between two states isn’t feasible for several more months); we’d also have to provide our own hay which I think is ridiculous.

After further thought, could you find someone local (maybe one of the other boarders?? with a back-up person to ensure coverage?) who could do the self-care on your horses for two months? Since it’s a limited period of time, it might be more feasible. Cough up the hay expense and realize that your options may not be ideal right now. When you move there, you take over the self-care.

Once you find your own place, you can move your horses home and it’s done. Until then, play nice and cooperate, even if you feel the barn manager is in the wrong.

[TheJenners]

Ew no. By all means move them and consult a civil attorney about the deposit. She sounds unscrupulous as hell. I had a BO do something similar when she thought she had me over a barrel, just like this one.

[IPEsq]

I am not following BO’s math on your other options. What does the boarding contract say about the price of these other spaces? Why is it $225 more per horse to have them share a private paddock all the time and $250 more for pony to do stall board + private paddock for the pony? What are the advertised board rates?

[hurricane07]

@IPEsq

I am not following BO’s math on your other options. What does the boarding contract say about the price of these other spaces? Why is it $225 more per horse to have them share a private paddock all the time and $250 more for pony to do stall board + private paddock for the pony? What are the advertised board rates?

Neither am I. According to the contract, pasture board is $375 while stall board with private paddock is $575. The $600/horse for this private paddock with run-in shed is not listed anywhere in the contract nor on the website - that’s why I am suspicious of this whole situation. Barn manager is insisting that we pay for both horses to be in the private paddock; understandable I guess since the pony can’t be alone but the $450 price hike is outrageous. The paddock appears to be unused at the moment as well.

[hurricane07]

@TheJenners

Ew no. By all means move them and consult a civil attorney about the deposit. She sounds unscrupulous as hell. I had a BO do something similar when she thought she had me over a barrel, just like this one.

Thanks for your input. Glad to know that it’s not just us that thinks it’s a power trip. We’re waiting to see if we can salvage the situation before getting an attorney involved. No need to make things even more sour if we end up working it out.

[hurricane07]

@Amberley

Is there an owner? You might want to bring this up with them, hopefully they can point out the obvious solution and be listened to.

Yes, there’s an owner and we are working on getting in contact with them. I’m not entirely sure how involved they are with the horses but they are our direct landlord for the house so we’ll be getting in touch with them regarding the deposit. Hopefully they may be able to help us sort this out with the barn manager.

[hurricane07]

Hi, thanks for your input. Here’s some answers to your questions:

The boarding contract says that horse owners must give 30 days notice to the barn. Barn manager is giving us an out by saying the pony needs to be gone by the end of the week, but I’d assume the 30 days still applies to the other horse. Nothing requiring the barn to give us notice, which is an oversight on our end unfortunately. I completely missed that before signing the contract. As for the house rental, I don’t believe that our year-long lease allows us an out once the deposit has been made unless the landlord makes an exception. We’re waiting to involve an attorney in case we are able to salvage the situation.

As for your second point, paying someone to take care of the horses on top of paying the proposed self-care rate (which is equal to the full care rate stated in the contract) goes above our budget. Hay is expensive and hard to find this time of year. I really don’t see a way to make the self care option work within our budget at all until we are fully moved into the new house. We’re strained financially as it is, between our low income and upcoming moving expenses. Anything on top of what we’ve agreed upon in the contract is simply not feasible.

[Willesdon]

I’m going to be unpopular but given the pony is very geriatric, chronically crippled, requiring daily meds, is in a situation where his care is inadequate, where you are currently limited in both time and money then put the pony to sleep.

[hurricane07]

@Willesdon

I’m going to be unpopular but given the pony is very geriatric, chronically crippled, requiring daily meds, is in a situation where his care is inadequate, where you are currently limited in both time and money then put the pony to sleep.

We thought about it but decided firmly against it. None of us believe that a convenience euthanasia is fair to the pony, especially for a temporary situation. He might be in his thirties and have weak tendons, but he’s not in pain and has a ton of life left. This move was the best thing for him, going from a cold and muddy environment to a warm and dry one. He is absolutely thriving, more-so than our other horse who is 15 years younger. His health issues are all extremely easy to manage and have no bearing on his quality of life. I just can’t justify euthanizing him when I could move him somewhere else (even if it’s extremely inconvenient) until we buy our own place within the next year.

[Libby2563]

Hopefully the owner will be more reasonable than the BM regarding the house deposit if you decide leaving is the best option (which it probably is).

@hurricane07

The pony has a lot of health issues and needs to be medicated twice a day (barn manager charges $10 a day to medicate), so we exclusively rented the house to be close to him and medicate him ourselves.

This is definitely something to run past a local practicing attorney, but in contract law there’s a concept called reliance. If your rental of the house reasonably depended on the farm’s promise to board your horses at agreed-upon rates, you may be able to use them reneging on that promise to get out of the rental contract for the house. Obviously it’s not that simple and you don’t want to have to litigate this, but a letter from an attorney could be enough. I wouldn’t keep my horses there if you go that route though…I think your realistic choices are either make nice or move. If you make nice, the private paddock option sounds like the best insofar as you’d have control of the herd situation. Perhaps you could negotiate the price down?

[Figment]

It is always best, but not always doable, to pasture mares and gelding separately.

[clanter]

@hurricane07

We thought about it but decided firmly against it. None of us believe that a convenience euthanasia is fair to the pony, especially for a temporary situation. He might be in his thirties and have weak tendons, but he’s not in pain and has a ton of life left.

we had a similar pony he lived to be over 45 years and we had to euthanize him when he got down in his stall and could not get up and he still fought

as for this BO, it appears to me they think your family is the Golden Goose or maybe a Cash Cow that they have over a barrel. As a suggestion have an attorney review that contract on the house to see if your family is restricted from subletting the house. I suspect there is not such a clause and they never thought about that occurring. If there is no restrictions then advise BO of your intent to sublet to whatever party that would be the most offensive to them

(IF you do go a head and rent this house, before moving in video the entire structure inside and out as I suspect this BO will say the condition of the property was worsen or damaged beyond normal wear by your family claiming damages)

[mmeqcenter]

@IPEsq

I am not following BO’s math on your other options. What does the boarding contract say about the price of these other spaces? Why is it $225 more per horse to have them share a private paddock all the time and $250 more for pony to do stall board + private paddock for the pony? What are the advertised board rates?

@hurricane07

According to the contract, pasture board is $375 while stall board with private paddock is $575. The $600/horse for this private paddock with run-in shed is not listed anywhere in the contract nor on the website - that’s why I am suspicious of this whole situation. Barn manager is insisting that we pay for both horses to be in the private paddock; understandable I guess since the pony can’t be alone but the $450 price hike is outrageous. The paddock appears to be unused at the moment as well.

Let me caveat and say that I do not agree with what the BO is doing. However, regarding the math:
It does not seem all that outrageous to me for these price differences. Moving to a small paddock from a (presumably) large grassy pasture means the BO will have to feed them more hay, and may have to spend time picking out manure, which is not likely something they do in the larger pasture. I always just took a drag to my pastures. Picking out manure by hand would be far more labor intensive and time consuming. Now, the $575 stall/paddock vs $600 paddock is a bit strange, but maybe she is accounting for it being a “custom” board arrangement (since you state it is not offered on her website), and including the medication needs of the older horse? Also, just because a paddock is currently unused, doesn’t mean she’s not within her right to charge more for its use.

Otherwise, yeah, this BO sounds either very inexperienced, or unscrupulous. I agree that aggressive mounting would just have me change the groups. But we don’t know the specifics of this barn, so we don’t know if changing the groups is even possible. Is it just one big field for pasture board and one big group? I have boarded at such a place before, 18 acres pasture and one herd, BO did not offer anything else, as is their right, it’s their barn and their labor. I loved that barn, but of course it’s a situation that doesn’t work for every horse. So, your BM didn’t even offer stall board for just the older guy - maybe there are no stalls available?
Also, it’s possible there have been other difficulties with the pony that they weren’t telling you about, and the mounting was the last straw. Pretty poor communication, to not be telling you, but a lot of BMs/BOs are frustratingly terrible about communicating.

@hurricane07

he’s been pastured with mares before with zero issues.

New barn, new state, often means new behavior. Not abnormal, really.

@hurricane07

We’re dead set on staying where we are unless the barn manager decides to give us our deposit back. We also can’t afford to pay any more than what we’re paying now. So, how should we approach this situation? What are the barn’s legal rights? Are they able to take a lien on the horses if we continue to pay only what we are required to per the contract? Is the barn manager trying to blackmail/scam us? What is going on here? I would love some input from commercial barn owners and managers. Thanks!

Is the BM the Barn owner and land/house owner? If they are separate persons, I would contact the homeowner about trying to get out of the lease before trying to discuss other options with the BM.

The barn’s legal rights depend on the state. In Florida, even when implementing an Agister’s lien, the barn cannot bar you from removing the horse from their property. Some states, they can.

I don’t think anyone is able to truly determine if the BM is trying to scam you. Without more information on the set-up of the farm and what they can even offer as far as changing pasture groups, I’m hesitant to judge them too harshly just yet. Right now, I’m leaning towards inexperienced and overwhelmed.

[Texarkana]

I wouldn’t automatically assume the BM is unknowledgeable or unscrupulous. A horse mounting other horses in the pasture is a big problem that can result in serious injury. I’ve had horses on the receiving end of injuries from it, both as the horse being mounted and the horse doing the mounting. I can understand a zero tolerance policy for that type of behavior if you are trying to manage herds of boarded horses. Most boarding contracts have verbiage that the barn can ask horses to leave at their discrestion.

I can also understand why a private paddock may incur an additional fee. But I’m confused: if the private paddock fee is $250 more than full stall board/private turnout for the pony, why don’t you just put the pony on full board and leave the other horse on pasture board? That seems like a solution.

The house situation is frustrating. Deposits are traditionally non-refundable, but in this case, I can’t understand why the barn manager wouldn’t be open to refunding the deposit. It is the decent human thing to do. July is far enough off that they have time to find another renter. It seems clear the BM doesn’t think the horse situation is going to work out if your only options are remove the horses or isolate your horses from the herd. Why would they want to invite the awkward situation of keeping you as renters when your horses aren’t welcome?

[ShenanAnna]

**[quote=“Texarkana, post:17, topic:784737, full:true”]
Why would they want to invite the awkward situation of keeping you as renters when your horses aren’t welcome?
[/quote]

This implies that there is logic involved, as well as consideration of the interaction of OP both boarding and renting the house.

What we may have is sheer reaction to a behavior of the pony with very little thought involved.

[usernameTaken]

Just throwing this out there, I have seen/heard of more than one person who managed/owned a boarding barn and overreacted when a horse did something well within normal horse behavior, especially when new horses are brought in, and made the ‘they have to leave now’ or ‘I won’t put up with this behavior’ speech. Almost always ,after a few days when horses acclimated, things cooled down and life got into a routine, no more was made of it.

One owner had been in the business for dozens of years so had experience; I wouldn’t say she was a great barn owner or great horse person, and she should have been used to all kinds of things that horses do but she thrived on the attention it got her. And that I saw it happen way too many times with relatively benign matters only made me think it was just an attention thing and a, um, looking for the nice way to put it because all I can come up with right now is the nsfw one… oh how about ‘marking her territory’, showing you she’s the boss kind of thing.

I’m not saying this is the case, but if it is and you need to stay there, I would not burn bridges just yet. Stand your ground and be reasonable and respectful of course, but don’t go in guns blazing just yet if this is early days. Again, I don’t know the situation, so you have to use your own judgement or gut feeling.

Maybe after a day or two, before the end of the week, and if behavior isn’t getting worse, ask if you can wait it out another week and see how the old guy does?

My opinion, which isn’t worth much, is that I’d also be looking for another place while this plays out and be ready to move on.

I hope it works out for you either at this barn or another. Moving is hard enough, you don’t need this problem right now.

[Texarkana]

@usernameTaken

Just throwing this out there, I have seen/heard of more than one person who managed/owned a boarding barn and overreacted when a horse did something well within normal horse behavior, especially when new horses are brought in, and made the ‘they have to leave now’ or ‘I won’t put up with this behavior’ speech. Almost always ,after a few days when horses acclimated, things cooled down and life got into a routine, no more was made of it.

One owner had been in the business for dozens of years so had experience; I wouldn’t say she was a great barn owner or great horse person, and she should have been used to all kinds of things that horses do but she thrived on the attention it got her. And that I saw it happen way too many times with relatively benign matters only made me think it was just an attention thing and a, um, looking for the nice way to put it because all I can come up with right now is the nsfw one… oh how about ‘marking her territory’, showing you she’s the boss kind of thing.

I’m not saying this is the case, but if it is and you need to stay there, I would not burn bridges just yet. Stand your ground and be reasonable and respectful of course, but don’t go in guns blazing just yet if this is early days. Again, I don’t know the situation, so you have to use your own judgement or gut feeling.

Maybe after a day or two, before the end of the week, and if behavior isn’t getting worse, ask if you can wait it out another week and see how the old guy does?

My opinion, which isn’t worth much, is that I’d also be looking for another place while this plays out and be ready to move on.

I hope it works out for you either at this barn or another. Moving is hard enough, you don’t need this problem right now.

You are so right. I really agree about not buring the bridge.

Anyone who has been in horses long enough completely understands that horse professionals aren’t always the most, er, “professional” of people. I don’t say this to bash barn managers or horse professionals. But it’s a high passion career where there are a lot of blurry lines: it can be hard to distinguish between friend and client, hobby and profession, home and business, being a compassionate animal lover and being business savvy, etc. It’s also a career where people come in with a wide variety of experiences and education.

So yeah, this may be a melodramatic barn manager response.

On the flip side, we horse owners often are too close to the situation to be objective about it.

You have a barn manager seeing a horse causing a dangerous situation and blaming the horse and owner. Then you have the horse owner knowing their horse has never done this before and blaming the barn manager. Who is right and who is wrong? Sometimes one party is right, the other is wrong. Sometimes both parties are right or wrong. It’s not always clear.

[awaywego]

All the BM issues aside, we had a similar situation recently with an older pony gelding. He’s been going out with a pony mare for almost two years without issue. Added another pony mare last fall and all was fine for 2+ months until she became a raging hussy and he’s trying to mount her (This was around Thanksgiving too, far too late in the year to be acting like this - or so I thought ) We put the pony mare on Regumate and the drama ended nearly immediately. Just suggesting this as a potential temporary alternative if there are no options to change the turn-out groups. Perhaps the pony mare owner would let you pay for the Regumate, which would be cheaper than the other board options that you’re being offered.