Professional competing as amateur

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;4106050]
I thank god that we don’t have this strange separation over here.
Everybody rides in the same class. :yes:

Why do you always find out such strange rules :confused:

Theo[/QUOTE]
Theo, because there is a huge separation of the many many very low level riders who can only get out to ride 3 or 4 times a week, who want to have a chance at a first place, and who cannot, or feel they cannot, compete against the very few professional riders who get to ride several hours a day.
This amateur sentiment led to a division between open and amateur. However, in most places, the FEI classes are all open.

I bust my butt making sure my amateur daughter does NOTHING to jepordize that standing. She doesn’t have the opportunity to ride as much due to her job as do many ammies so they are at a bit of a disadvantage to the pro who does. It makes me really angry when some do break the rules with the knowledge that they are. (some do out of ignorance and that is understandable because the rule can be confusing)
If the competitors don’t help enforce the rules who will? USEF does not have the resources to police each and every competitor and it is probably illegal to ask for everyone’s W2 forms! :slight_smile: Just as we expect the medical community to help keep their people in line, so should we. Not becoming a police force but if we see an infraction that is obvious, not speculation or jealousy, we should report it. Sometimes being brought to the attention of a steward or TD is enough to stop the person and a protest need not be filed. If you do feel the need to say something, be sure of your facts.

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;4106050]
I thank god that we don’t have this strange separation over here.
Everybody rides in the same class. :yes:

Why do you always find out such strange rules :confused:

Theo[/QUOTE]

We all generally ride in the same class as well - although they may pin the AA/jr’s separately. So that doesn’t really matter.

WHAT DOES MATTER:

  1. our GMO has a big year-end award where you send in your top 5 scores and then there are awards at each level (training, 1st, 2nd…GP) for open and for AA and for Jr/YR. this is the part that is bugging me. as my “friend” will likely do vy well as a “shamateur” (like quite likely champion) but be in the middle as an open rider. (many of the BNT don’t compete at training)

  2. the region championships -which my friend is absolutely planning on qualifying for. These championships are divided into open and AA and Jr/YR. you need higher qualifying scores as an open rider

3)USDF year end awards especially the all-breed. these awards are separated into open and AA

I thank god that we don’t have this strange separation over here.
Everybody rides in the same class.

Why do you always find out such strange rules

Theo

Theo, over here a pro is considered someone who takes money in the horse world. It can be someone who teaches beginner lessons…it can be someone who takes money to exercise a horse.
Then there are AA’s who have the access to better training, better horses because they have the money.
It is a strange rule.

I’m always so disappointed when some cometitors say “oh just mind your own business and look the other way when rules are broken”. I wonder if they would feel that way if they found out they didn’t get a Year End Award due to pros riding as amateurs and pushing her down the rankings. Cheaters never win and winners never cheat.

But getting back to the OP - why don’t you just try this. Tell the person you have a friend who wants to show Amateur but doesn’t because she owns a breeding business and has income from it (I’ll be your friend). Then just ask if the person can call her. I’d be happy to call and ask how I an show as an Amateur when the rules say I can’t.

If this person is chasing points they must be relatively well known in your area, right? Here in NC our show management generally know most of the “regulars” and verify their national membership card status when the entries arrive and they are entering competitors into the classes requested. If a known professional (read Open) competitor enters in an AA class questions are asked immediately.

Personally I wouldn’t hesitate speaking with the TD at the show if you are absolutely positive she is making a living teaching lessons and you are not mistaken. Perhaps the TD can just ask the question of the competitor and get to the bottom of it at the show. I don’t know that just having a website indicates I’m making any money at whatever my website indicates IMO. I could set up a website indicating I’m a rocket scientist but it doesn’t make me one! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

But owning a breeding business doesn’t make you a pro unless you sell horses for other people. You can breed and sell all the horses you want and still be an amateur as long as you own the horses you sell.

I have received money for handling horses for other people or working with - so that is income.

And by the way - it’s not if you MAKE money - it relates to INCOME.

You don’t have to make a living teaching lessons, or even make any kind of profit. As long as you charge money (or other remuneration) for teaching lessons to other people, you are no longer an amateur.

And it sounds like this is someone who probably has not declared open on their membership card, either, so checking the card with their entry form wouldn’t help. There are definitely those who keep “amateur” on the card even while teaching lessons. (Especially those who think just teaching one or two lessons doesn’t affect their status - but it does.)

[QUOTE=Long Spot;4105940]
Sadly, I don’t think even a website is proof enough for the USEF. Though I’d certainly take a screen shot of it immediately. Since you’ve chatted with her, it might mysteriously go bye bye.

The stories I have heard from people who have filed complaints and paid the fee to do so (it’s not cheap) is that they have been asked to require proof in the form of copies of cashed checks, reciepts for services rendered etc.

If you can’t provide that, you will usually lose your complaint and lose the money you spent to file. You really might have better luck printing out a copy of the screen shot of her web page and as someone suggested, drop it in an envelope to the steward and office staff for the next show with a note suggesting they look at the classes this pro is entered in.

I’m shocked at her reasoning that because she teaches kids, the lessons don’t really count. That’s a very interesting converstation she’s having with herself to make it ok in her own mind.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do on this, whether it’s try to make a stand or back away. I’d understand both decisions.[/QUOTE]

The website in itself is sufficient proof. No need to provide copies of checks.

“Advertising professional services such as training or giving lessons by way of
business cards, print ads, or internet.”

The fee to file a protest is $200. However it may not even be necessary to go that route. Simply have a conversation with the steward,TD or show management. If you do need to pay the fee you get it back if your claim is upheld.

If you look at the monthly USEF hearing committee reports you will see that recently there are 2-3 cases each month involving Pros who showed as Ammie’s and have been fined or suspended or both.
Recently someone was fined and the proof was simply that the daughter of a pro showed a horse belonging to a client of the mother and the mother was listed as the trainer for the horse. A violation for sure but in that case the proof was just the results records from the show.

Rather than rely on ‘stories’ others have heard you might want to call USEF and ask what’s the best way to proceed.

Personally I wouldn’t hesitate speaking with the TD at the show if you are absolutely positive she is making a living teaching lessons and you are not mistaken. Perhaps the TD can just ask the question of the competitor and get to the bottom of it at the show. I don’t know that just having a website indicates I’m making any money at whatever my website indicates IMO. I could set up a website indicating I’m a rocket scientist but it doesn’t make me one! :lol::lol::lol::lol:[/QUOTE]

Oh, I’m absolutely positive. she has no other job. she teaches lessons daily runs a riding camp takes horses in training. any boarders at her barn have to be in training board.

the web site is just an easy way to communicate with the TD as suggested by other posters

as far as your other comment about the show management recognizing this - how would they. If you lie to the USEF and get an AA card how would the show managers know otherwise? should they be doing google searches on all AA competitors?

3)USDF year end awards especially the all-breed. these awards are separated into open and AA

Just wanted to point out that this is an inaccurate statement as it is not true across the board. It is up to the individual participating breed organizations as to whether or not they offer awards for the 3 separate divisions or not. The WPCSA only gives awards for the different levels by breed division (Section A, Section B, Section C, Section D and half-welsh). The rankings are decided putting open, amateur and junior together. There is no separation or distinction made between amateur vs. open vs. junior rider.

Many of our local NC show management generally know enough about many of the competitors to know personally if they are professionals or run a business, etc. is what I was meaning, regardless of their card status if they have also lied on their membership status.

Huh. I would have thought this was OK as long as the daughter was not a pro herself. Daughter would have to work and be paid by mother (or anyone) to be a pro, parents status should be irrelevant.

Nope, the rules are very clear on this

GR1306 Amateur Status.
1.f. Rides, drives or shows, any horse for which he/she or a member of his/her family or
a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, receives remuneration for
boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. (A family member of a trainer may not
absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a
horse owned by a client of the trainer).

Note that the mother could be running a boarding barn (no training or teaching) and still be an amateur. But if her daughter rode a boarder’s horse, the daughter would no longer be an amateur.

[QUOTE=ise@ssl;4106927]

But getting back to the OP - why don’t you just try this. Tell the person you have a friend who wants to show Amateur but doesn’t because she owns a breeding business and has income from it (I’ll be your friend). Then just ask if the person can call her. I’d be happy to call and ask how I an show as an Amateur when the rules say I can’t.[/QUOTE]

Um as far as I know, owning a breeding business and generate income from it (hence the definition of business) does not make you a professional… Or is it different from different breed?

But you can “own a breeding business and have income from it” and still be an amateur.

GR1306 Amateur Status.
2.e. Having the occupation of veterinarian, groom, farrier or owning a tack shop or
breeding or boarding stable in itself, does not affect the amateur status of a person who
is otherwise qualified
.

She doesn’t have to be making a living, accepting any money at all makes her ineligible.

I think I agree with those who have said the rule is kind of harsh, but it makes it even more unfair if most people follow it but a few break it.

She has already answered this about her breeding business. She does more than “just” the breeding business.

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4106715]
Theo, because there is a huge separation of the many many very low level riders who can only get out to ride 3 or 4 times a week, who want to have a chance at a first place, and who cannot, or feel they cannot, compete against the very few professional riders who get to ride several hours a day.
This amateur sentiment led to a division between open and amateur. However, in most places, the FEI classes are all open.[/QUOTE]

COL,

I completely understand it, but I don’t agree with this rule.

EVEN MORE i think the OP started a ridiculous thread :yes:, by setting people up against eachother.

But I understand that in the US it is all about winning and getting the blue ribbon, bronze, silver and gold medal etc…

All the rules in the world can not honestly qualify a rider as an amateur or as a pro.

Theo