Professional competing as amateur

Do all this up front, don’t worry about blowback or address that concern up front.

I’d start with the offending party as in “Wait a sec. Why are you competing for year end awards with ammies when you are a pro?”

I think the person’s answer “well what I do doesn’t count” means that either she hasn’t read the USEF rule book, or doesn’t agree with the rule.

I either way, she is asking for permission to cheat. If you don’t care, then bend over. I care, so I won’t.

The next part of the conversation goes: “I think you need to pick one of the other. You either run your business and leave the ammies to their divisions and awards, or you spend the year reestablishing your ammy status as per USEF rules.”

If she doesn’t get that you will be prepared to follow up on her cheating, then you may decide to make that clear. It’s not a threat so much as a promise. It’s actually the kind way to go. You are handling things directly and “in house”-- giving her the opportunity to save face.

If she doesn’t take that and/or “hates you” because of it, then too bad. I can’t imagine what the negative consequences to the whistle blower would be. How does someone rationalize bad-mouthing the person who simply asked another competitor not to cheat? If people want to shoot the messenger, step us and tell your side of the story.

It is unfortunate that individuals should have to police others. It’s even more unfortunate (and unbelievable) that potential revenge should keep people from standing up-- simply asking them to follow the rules.

If I could not convince the shammy to do the right thing, I would write first to the TD-- but not under the cover of anonymity. Show up and do the right thing, especially if you believe you are. I don’t see what you have to hide. If I got blown off at that level, I’d take it to the USEF. I might make it clear to the TD along the way (but not in the first letter) that the USEF will know you tried to get him/her to handle it. Again, you are doing things directly and quietly, always offering the people to correct themselves without embarrassment or extra work. It’s their decision to make things easier or tougher.

I think the ammy status is worth protecting in the long run. For those of us who would like to compete on a somewhat level playing field, it’s an issue that keeps us coming back to shows and perhaps even the sport. I see no reason to throw money, time, effort and even milage on my horse just to know that the odds were stacked against us in the first place. Maybe others will get disgusted too. Witness the baseball/steroids fiasco.

Too bad this problem as arrived at the OPs doorstep but I do think she has an opportunity.

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;4107516]

EVEN MORE i think the OP started a ridiculous thread :yes:, by setting people up against eachother.

But I understand that in the US it is all about winning and getting the blue ribbon, bronze, silver and gold medal etc…

Theo[/QUOTE]

Having divisions allow people to compete on more even ground and encourage more people into the sport. Anybody who does not like the “dividion” is welcome to compete in “OPEN” division where everybody is allowed to compete. Any pro who tries to compete in amateur division is a person who tries to cheat, nothing to do with setting anybody against anybody.

Besides, what’s wrong with ribbons/awards? If you don’t give a damn about it, you are more than welcome NOT to compete. No reason to damn people who do care. huh?

All the rules in the world can not honestly qualify a rider as an amateur or as a pro.

So can you honestly qualify that this person as an amateur?

Caddy,

I reported a gal once who was competing in a novice division. It was a breed assoc rule. She was breaking rules and when I saw this was going on, I made an anonymous call into the breed assoc.

It was unfortunate for the true novice who was second to her all weekend, as by the time the assoc caught up to her and got the returned prizes it was much too late for photo opps and such for the true winner.

I have never regretted doing that.

We also had an ammy competing while running full page adds in a regional magazine boasting of lessons, sales and training. Someone else sent in the add and that was the end of her competing as an ammy.

I have to wonder what her lesson clients think when they go to a show to watch their “trainer” compete as an ammy.

The next step would be a class for people training with an Olympian rider, a class for people not riding a warmblood, a class for people who can only train once a week, people who paid over 100.000 US$ for their horse, or under US$ 100.000,= etc…etc…

I repeat; it’s a ridiculous rule and only seen in the USA. But it’s even more ridiculous when people are starting all kind of activities to nail other riders based on these rules.

I really hope that somewhere along the line people are satisfied with their performance instead of the ribbons.

Theo

[QUOTE=Janet;4106418]
It is now. Recent rule change.[/QUOTE]

That is wonderful news, Janet. Thanks for the heads up.

[QUOTE=freestyle2music;4107516]
COL,

I completely understand it, but I don’t agree with this rule.

EVEN MORE i think the OP started a ridiculous thread :yes:, by setting people up against eachother.

But I understand that in the US it is all about winning and getting the blue ribbon, bronze, silver and gold medal etc…

All the rules in the world can not honestly qualify a rider as an amateur or as a pro.

Theo[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Personally Theo, I don’t agree with it either. As others have pointed out, there is no fair line to draw- so they have drawn one that prevents talented amateurs from sharing their knowledge with their friends- if you accept any sort of reward, even trading barnwork for lessons, that can be construed as accepting payment and makes one inelegible for amateur status, even if you do it once a year. Frankly I think its counter productive to growing our sport.

Its just dumb to classify someone who teaches a few lessons to friends once a month as a PROfessional! This is hardly on the same line as someone who works as a trainer, is long lsited for the Team, and supports themselves from their riding and teaching career.

Plus, it has the potential to promote mediocrity. Can’t compete with a good (i.e. professional) rider? No problem, take your half assed riding to the amateur class and you’ll pin a ribbon anyway. I don’t know if I’d get any satisfaction from knowing I was the biggest fish in a very dirty pool. Yes, this is an exaggeration, but you get the point.

Having the division is not leveling the playing field- it is taking the less competent rider and creating another playing field just for them, ignorant of the true standard that is set in the open classes. it is the exact opposite of leveling the field.

I think the junior/adult divisions are appropriate for kids under 16, and I always get a giggle when some kid enters the open class and beats the pants off some of the adult ammies. Maybe even the juniors don’t need a separate class, but we make special allowances in our society for CHILDREN (not for adults who want to be treated like them) .

Seems to me the easiest way to eliminate the cheating is to eliminate the amateur class althogether and just let people ride to the best of their ability, pro or not. Gosh if some pro always beats you, go home and practice some more or move down a level.

Talented amateurs can “share their knowledge with their friends” all they want. They just can’t CHARGE for it. A friend of mine is, now, a professional, though she only has a few casual students. She probably could “get away” with doing what the OP tells about, but she plays by the rules and shows open. But as an Amateur, she coached me for several years, at no charge and showed as an ammy. I was her only “student.”

There is a real difference between an amateur and a professional, and until rules are changed to, perhaps, say that you can remain an ammy as long as you make no more than $_____________/year from “sharing knowledge with friends,” then even the casual instructor who accept $$$ for teaching, as opposed to the full-time instructor/trainer, will be classed as professional, and rightly so.

I have known several pros who bowed to the rules and stopped teaching, etc. for a year and reestablished themselves as amateurs, and good for them.

have known several pros who bowed to the rules and stopped teaching, etc. for a year and reestablished themselves as amateurs, and good for them.

Good for them for following the rules, yes. But a real loss of probably decent, ethical coaches to the sport just so they can show as amateurs. (and in canada, it takes 2 years to clear your pro status)

That’s one good example of why I feel the rule is counterproductive to the sport.

Limiting the amount of income is difficult to administer- what? are you going to require that all amateurs proffer up their tax returns to prove their source of income? And the cheaters will still cheat. You will still have those pros hiding their income under the table and even though everyone knows they are true pros, they squeak by under the cut-off. It is impossible.

There is no level playing field in dressage anyway. Your dedication and skill level are about the only things that can attempt to level it. Otherwise, pros who ride a lot and those with lots of cash who are not a pro anything, will always have the advantage.

[QUOTE=CatOnLap;4112741]
Good for them for following the rules, yes. But a real loss of probably decent, ethical coaches to the sport just so they can show as amateurs. (and in canada, it takes 2 years to clear your pro status)[/QUOTE]

I guess I really don’t get your logic. How is that the loss for the sport? Without division, pros have to compete in open. With division, they still need to compete in open. What loss do they have?

They are still allowed to compete. It is not like they cannot compete any more. To pros, nothing has changed. If any, it gives pros an edge also because, for god’s sake, some amateurs are better riders than some pros.

The division is for amateurs to have more options. Some amaterus especially beginner amateurs get rather intimidated when competing with pros.

I agree that the rules are not bullet proof. For example, vets and grooms are considered “pros”, even though they might hop on a horse two times in thier life times. But OP’s friend is a true pro in every sense. there is no confusion about it. She wants the award and she is willing to do anything to get it and that is called cheating.

I dealt with the same thing at a hunter show. My friend was competing as a ammy and ran a lesson program FULL time with a web site and all. I guess she though it was just kids.
I feel like it is wrong and it made me uncomfortable. Bad situation!

Other way round.

I am not sure whether I agree with it but the claim is that there a lot of good riders who WOULD be good teachers/trainers. But they chose NOT to teach/train becuase they waant to competee as amatuers. Therfore “the sport” loses the advantage of their teaching/training skills.

That claim is logical at the first glance but flawed when exaimed. In one word, their desires cannot be met without sacrificing the majority of others.

Why do they want to compete in amateur? Because they think they have a shot in amateur? Why? because they believe they have an edge against amateurs and they cannot compete with other pros successfully.

If we allow pros to compete in amateurs so we will not lose their teaching expertise (now whether I want the teaching expertise of someone who cannot compete with other pros, I don’t know but that’s me), what is the difference between pros and amateurs divisions? None. So we end up with two divisions that are identical!

So, we remove the divisions, the same pros will compete in one and only division, open. Ammies will be forced to compete with the formidable pros in that same one and only division too. How is that good for anyone? Pros will be against many ammies with fancier horses and amaterus will be against pros who are much more experienced.

What is next? Ammies get frustrated competing with this trainer or that trainer. They quite showing. They quit sending their horses to trainers. They might get out of the sport completely. How is that good for the sport, especially the ammies are the ones paying money? Don’t forget that the industry cannot survive without the paying ammies.

To me, pros are there to provide services. They are not there to take advantage of those who provide them feed.

If they cannot compete with other pros they probably should not be teaching…there are too many unqualified “trainers” as is.

No, veterinarians are not considered pros under USEF rules, and neither are grooms, UNLESS they get on someone else’s horses.

GR1306 1.c (Bolding mine)
c. Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper,veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses.

[QUOTE=MissKatie;4113100]
If they cannot compete with other pros they probably should not be teaching…there are too many unqualified “trainers” as is.[/QUOTE]

Well, that depends on what they are teaching. A trainer who teaches western riding may want to try their hand at dressage. They may be wonderful western trainers, they are still required to ride as professionals even in the dressage ring.

^ that’s ture!

[QUOTE=caddym;4106058]
(I’ll cut the words out of the newspaper and glue them on like a ransom note so they can’t ID my handwriting) [/QUOTE]

That will make the letter look like it is from a kook! Why not type it? :smiley:

An instructor I know who works in the northeast went to Florida for a couple of weeks one winter and showed as an am down there. It really changed my opinion of her but I didn’t have the nerve to report her or confront her in person and it somehow felt slimy to try making an anonymous report. So, I kept my yap shut but it still irks me.

If they cannot compete with other pros they probably should not be teaching…there are too many unqualified “trainers” as is.

a lot don’t call themselves “trainers” they are instructors teaching beginners etc. to make a living to afford their horse.

If they will change the rules:

I have several friends who are working as trainer’s assistants and they teach kids, as young as 5 year old kids on school ponies. They themselves ride only their own horses, 1 or 2 and that’s it. I don’t mind showing in the same class with them. If we get about the same amount of saddle time = it’s fair to show in the same class.

… but pros can write off their taxes shows/clinics/lessons/horses and such = so for pros its cheeper to show/clinic/lesson than for AAs.

This is not correct. Riders can compete as a Young Rider until the end of the year in which they turn 21. It is not possible for her to turn 21 mid-show season and then be punished for not switching to open classes.

Rule DR119.3:

“3. For purposes of competition in the Dressage Division: Individuals are eligible as Juniors
until the end of the calendar year in which they reach the age of 18. Individuals are eligible
as Young Riders from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach the age of 16
until the end of the calendar year in which they reach the age of 21.