Oh, and I’m darn proud to be a “tree hugger.” I like nature, I want to keep it clean and healthy. So what an asinine epithet to choose. Even if I knew nothing else about him, that would tell me all I needed to know.
[QUOTE=jen-s;8201199]
Oh, and I’m darn proud to be a “tree hugger.” I like nature, I want to keep it clean and healthy. So what an asinine epithet to choose. Even if I knew nothing else about him, that would tell me all I needed to know.[/QUOTE]
“Tree hugger” is not someone that likes nature and want to keep it clean and healthy".
Regular, sensible people do that.
Tree huggers are those that have this idea of the earth as an utopia garden of Eden, untouched by humans.
To those humans, we are the scourge of the earth for living on it and using the resources we have learned to use, the gall of it.
Tree huggers go from being part of this world and doing the best we know how with what we have, to thinking the earth’s only purpose is to hold static, no changes, until it fades into it’s natural end and so should be off limits to humans “interfering” in any way with that process.
Tree huggers designation started when some would literally hug the trees to keep the forest permit holders from harvesting trees, not understanding that was a better way to make use of that wood, as the natural, renewable resource it is for humans, than let it burn off wholesale in forest fires.
Now, what did CA meant by that, you would have to ask him about it.
[QUOTE=Kwill;8200445]
Thanks for posting this. It was surprising, as many at my barn, including me, have watched Clinton Anderson’s videos and used some of the techniques. It’s disappointing to hear he’s such an ass. I moved on to Buck Brannaman, which has been helpful, but I take all of these guys with a grain of salt now. I agree with the showman analogy, many of these guys are just circus acts at these clinics (I saw one with The Mustachioed One, which was just like a circus act, nothing to learn, just watch them do clever things with horses for a while).[/QUOTE]
I have to admit I WAS a CA fan about 10 years ago, before he became famous.
IMHO his work back then WAS effective and fair. Unfortunately he has become more of a showman than horseman.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8200314]
ladymcts, I’ll bet you love the Road to the Horse, too! 
Actually, I’d bet you don’t. IMO that is the epitome of the “medicine show model” that Lady E talks about. I mean a race to see who can get a horse under saddle first?!?!?! I’d love to follow the career of a couple of those “winners” and see what it took to undue what was done in those three hours (more or less).
I’m not a fan of any of the “gurus” who hawk merchandise, videos, etc. There are some who are less damaging than others but I’ve never been comfortable with “the lesser of two evils” approach to life. There are very rare times when such choices must be made; those times are never happy times.
There is, however, another side to this nickle. WAY too many “tree huggers” have the seriously erroneous view that horses are, in fact, just an analog of a “hairy, somewhat retarded child” vice a 1000 pound, one horsepower motor that has it’s own agenda. They steep themselves in anthropomorphic twaddle (like worrying about if touching a horse on the face is an “insult”). They worry about the horse “enjoying itself in it’s work” when there has never been any proof that any horse, EVER, enjoyed anything in life beyond breeding, eating, and being a herd member. To demand that they “enjoy” their work is to be very anthopomorphic. It also produces of huge numbers of dangerously mis-, mal- and un-trained horses.
I’m not a fan of “natural horsemanship” in any of it’s various incarnations. This does NOT imply, however, that I’m a fan of “beat them into submission” training methods.
I don’t believe in the “partnership” model. It implies too much “equality.” I do believe in the “team” model. I’m the captain and the horse is the crew. My job is to define the task, ensure that the crew is prepared to learn and does learn the task, and then decide when and where the task is performed. If the horse errs I have to figure out where I made the mistake. Did I not properly condition the horse? Did I not properly train the horse? Did I make a mistake in cueing the horse? The hard truth is that equine error is almost always borne of human error. No guru has yet embraced this model.
G.[/QUOTE]
Great post. I bolded a sentence because if “I” miss, my 1st mate better step up and bail me out (which she does, we are team Pudgy Ammy Mommy)
Don’t you wish some of these guys would go into wild animal training, say, tigers or lions? They might learn a thing or two about thumping on an animal that can actually, really kill you in the blink of an eye.
Too easy to beat up a horse.
IMO, the bad thing about all of these “Snake Oil Salesman” is that each one of them has little tidbits of information that might be useable for an experienced horse person. BUT, it isn’t experienced people who are listening to these bozos, because experienced people already know how to train a horse. It is the inexperienced wannabes who really think that they too can be a trainer if they just follow the bozos instructions, and buy their DVDs and special halters, ect.
My and Mr. NoDQs biggest gripe is that NONE of these bozos promote good RIDING or sensible development/improvement of the HORSE. It is all about taking away from the horse, turning them into a automon that is “tame” enough for the person that doesn’t want to or doesn’t have the time to devote to learning how to be a good and effective rider.
We too, went to a “clinic” put on with one of the more famous ones recently and our opinion was very similar to the OPs here.
[QUOTE=Guilherme;8200314]
I don’t believe in the “partnership” model. It implies too much “equality.” I do believe in the “team” model. I’m the captain and the horse is the crew. My job is to define the task, ensure that the crew is prepared to learn and does learn the task, and then decide when and where the task is performed. If the horse errs I have to figure out where I made the mistake. Did I not properly condition the horse? Did I not properly train the horse? Did I make a mistake in cueing the horse? The hard truth is that equine error is almost always borne of human error. No guru has yet embraced this model.
G.[/QUOTE]
And this really bears repeating ^^^
Just makes the circus analogy that much stronger – people go to see the show.
I doubt the majority of the audience takes away anything of use from it that will promote the riding or improvement of their horses. But that’s not what these showmen care about, at least not after a few years of driving the clinic circuit (I think many start out that way, with a genuine interest in helping people train their horses to be useful).
As any good teacher would do, he not only demonstrated for us, but also took the time to explain that when he hits the horse on the nose or jaw with his training stick, he’s just “looking for sensitivity.”
holy how-to-make-a-horse-head-shy, batman! :eek:
Wow. I had no idea that he had devolved to this level. As I mentioned on the thread in the Western forum, I liked his approach way back when he first started over here, and found it useful, if a touch too aggressive. To hear that he’s that foul-mouthed as well as working the hell out of horses is really something.
:no:
I met this guy 20 years ago. At the time he seemed smart, sensible, your basic solid horseman. I don’t even recognize the persona he’s become.
[QUOTE=poltroon;8201335]
I met this guy 20 years ago. At the time he seemed smart, sensible, your basic solid horseman. I don’t even recognize the persona he’s become.[/QUOTE]
Maybe he’s in over his head financially; maybe he’s got a drinking or painkiller problem; maybe he’s breaking up with his SO, or has a few too many of those at his various venues and they’re starting to talk to each other. Or his ratings and sales are falling. Who knows? But the cussing and inappropriate vulgarity, given that his listeners are women and children often from very conservative religious backgrounds, not to mention public horse abuse bespeaks an impending meltdown of some certainty.
Wouldn’t be the first competent horseman who stepped on his crank after a little too much fame and fortune; like some football players, not many are socially equipped to handle it. Unfortunately, the animals pay for it in the end.
I wouldn’t hesitate to e-mail a link to this entire thread to SmartPak et al. and show them who their promo-man is becoming.
Yeccch!
Ladymcts, I just wrote to Smartpak sending a link to this thread and asking them to end their sponsorship relationship with Anderson. Thank you so much for posting about this huckster. I will write to some other of the companies later.
[QUOTE=alfonsina;8201361]
Ladymcts, I just wrote to Smartpak sending a link to this thread and asking them to end their sponsorship relationship with Anderson. Thank you so much for posting about this huckster. I will write to some other of the companies later.[/QUOTE]
Thank you.
As I said upstream, I have already been on Smartpak’s case about one issue. I’m loath to become a recognizable PITA for them. I appreciate someone else getting their hands dirty if they, too, think something should be said.
I was wondering if we should/could start a “members of COTH” plea to SmartPak about this. Thanks for sending the link, alfonsina.
I don’t know how companies make their decisions on whom to sponsor, but it seems a very poor choice to be sponsoring CA given all of what the OP stated . . . and that was just at one stop on his “tour”!
[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;8201390]
I was wondering if we should/could start a “members of COTH” plea to SmartPak about this. Thanks for sending the link, alfonsina.
I don’t know how companies make their decisions on whom to sponsor, but it seems a very poor choice to be sponsoring CA given all of what the OP stated . . . and that was just at one stop on his “tour”![/QUOTE]
It’s pretty easy not to know what happens when you don’t go and see it in person. I had noticed that Clinton seemed much more aggressive and hard on the horses, but having not attended any of the clinics, had no idea how vulgar he was being. I’m not saying to give them all a free pass, but I’d give them a chance to respond.
[QUOTE=poltroon;8201335]
I met this guy 20 years ago. At the time he seemed smart, sensible, your basic solid horseman. I don’t even recognize the persona he’s become.[/QUOTE]
This seems to be the normal life trajectory for the trainers-turned-celeb-clinicians. And why is that so? What happens to 'em that they get rougher over time? That’s weird because I’m going in the opposite direction. I’m always learning to be slower and more subtle as a horsewoman.
I’d guess it is a combination of a lot of things. For one, I think that having to earn your living off of horses can put one in a position to make bad decisions, especially if you’re largely in the public eye. When I say bad decisions, I mean anything that isn’t for the horse’s welfare or best interest, whether it be drugging, gimmicks, gadgets, whatever will get you to the “end goal” the quickest. Especially someone who’s in the limelight like CA will want to get it done quickly, even if quick and dirty is what happens, to show that the system works.
Secondly, I think that there is some sort of “snake oil” showmanship to it. Take a perfectly calm horse but one that doesn’t know what’s going on, given it’s level of training or quality of handling. Rile that horse up so it looks like maybe it is too much for the average Joe to handle. Then “calm” it down (break its spirit) to show how skilled you are. Then sell a bunch of DVDs and training tools to show someone else how to do it. If you can insult people in the process, then that type of psychology may work on some of them so that they DON’T want to be in the group of people you just insulted. So CA created an “us vs. them” attitude, making people want to be on the “us” (CA) side, not the “them” side of things.
Then there’s just plain 'ole ego that gets in the way of doing things with grace and class.
Of course if people think you are good looking and like your smarmy style and fall for the advertising baloney, then you’ve created a “product” that people want to say they’ve met, used, know, etc.
This also creates a niche for the woman who actually doesn’t want to ride for whatever reason (probably fear being #1). You can “play games” with your horse or make them obedient and enjoy owning horses without riding . . . which is fine, but you don’t need CA’s training to be able to do that. Or maybe there are a bunch of people who started with horses as an adult and just don’t know what to do with them, never having had lessons as a kid or being the barn rat who just hung out all day and tried to absorb as much as possible.
Sadly the poor horses suffer.
I think that even if SmartPak can tune out the buzz of angry horse people, they might be more attentive to the fact that he is mouthing off in front of young kids with profanity and casually throwing out comments about “sex with sheep”. That strays into a whole other territory: one that usually scares the hell out of Smart companies.
Hi ladymcts, this is your pony riding friend who went to the clinic with you. Fun to “meet” you here too!
I was similarly disgusted and can verify that ladymcts’ account is quite accurate. I’d heard he could be a bit rough, but was absolutely floored by the lack of respect he seemed to have for both the animals (both his language and behavior) and the (primarily) female audience.
It seemed pretty obvious to me that his average fan is a middle aged lady who has returned to or started again with horses after a many year break, is perhaps overhorsed or scared and as such becomes desperate to find ANY method to “fix” her horse’s behavior. This makes me so sad, as I have many riding friends and acquaintances who fit the description of being a middle aged new or re-rider and who are having a GREAT time, enjoying their horses and are an absolute joy to spend barn time with because they purchased/leased/whatever an appropriate horse and seek regular instruction with a competent local instructor or trainer.
So in a way, I think this is part of a bigger issue - how as current horse people can we encourage new or returning riders to a) select appropriate mounts, not try to tame the black stallion right off the bat and b) seek regular instruction from a good local trainer if they are having issues. Because if new riders/owners could have positive experiences, I think the “demand” for clinicians like CA would be much reduced.
