Proving Ownership—Could You Really Do It?

[chestnutmarebeware]

The recent stolen-horse thread started me thinking about how I could actually “prove” ownership of my three girls if I needed to. Two of them are JC-registered, but came to me free off the track, with nothing but a coggins and a halter to their name. Stupid, perhaps, but I didn’t get a bill of sale ($1 ???) on either of them. Just pulled a trailer up, and their trainer loaded them, patted them and said, “have fun.”

The third is a registered paint but as I don’t plan to show at breed shows, I never bothered to transfer ownership to myself. Again, stupid, perhaps, but there it is.

So, I have years’ worth of paperwork that IMPLY that these girls belong to me (coggins, vaccination certs., vet bill receipts, boarding contracts, etc.), but nothing that legally proves it.

I’m guessing I’m not alone in this situation, and am interested in whether others have the same concern floating around in the back of their minds?

[rustbreeches]

Yes. In CO a brand release from the brand inspector is required when selling a horse or cow. I need the brand inspector to sign off if I am just dropping a homeraised steer at the slaughterhouse. I can quite easily prove ownership

[trubandloki]

I can prove ownership as all three of mine are registered in my name and I have my original bill of sale for them.

If that failed me, two of them have a microchip that is registered to me. All of them have amply vet and farrier history, including full PPE.

[englishcowgirl]

We have something called brand inspection that legally certifies you as the owner of the horse for as long as you own the animal or for its lifetime. Its recorded with the state and the owner is provided a copy of the paperwork as well. Registration papers do not prove ownership legally in our state, you need to have a bill of sale to do that. You also need a bill of sale to get a brand inspection unless you can prove you bred the animal yourself. I like the system personally, but you need to be on top of it as there are many who sell non brand inspected horses and you can’t transfer them legally in state if they don’t have one done at time of sale. It is difficult to get them out of a evacuation center after a disaster as those BI’s are required for release, unless you have an out of state id and a bill of sale.

[analise]

I’ve got a bill of sale when I got my house and about five years (holy crap, five years!) worth of pictures of me and Kieran on facebook. Plus half a dozen people who were there when I bought him could testify to the fact. Or that my name has been on his last five years of Cogginses. You get the idea.

[danceronice]

As Lucky’s tattooed and I have his JC papers, signed over to me on the transfer, am actually listed with the JC as his owner (it’s easy to do now on-line), and have all his current veterinary papers including a current Coggins, a long list of people down here who know I owned him, and would not just give his papers to anyone who hadn’t bought him, it would be hard for someone to argue that he was anyone else’s horse.

[Appsolute]

Yes, I have a sales contract, and registration papers which have been transferred from the breeder to me - and now show my name on them.

[katarine]

Bills of Sale and all papers are in our name.

[LarkspurCO]

[QUOTE=rustbreeches;7041496]
Yes. In CO a brand release from the brand inspector is required when selling a horse or cow. I need the brand inspector to sign off if I am just dropping a homeraised steer at the slaughterhouse. I can quite easily prove ownership[/QUOTE]

I have permanent brand inspection travel cards on all of my horses, plus registration papers (for those that are registered), bills of sale, vet receipts and a many, many photos. One of mine also is branded with a freeze mark (BLM style brand) and another has an RPSI brand (which you can barely see).

The only other thing I plan to do is microchip, which could help someone find me if any of them are ever “misplaced.”

[ReSomething]

Nope. DH picked him up and never got a bill of sale when he did it. I do have a paper trail of farrier and coggins and routine shots, but all that proves is that he has been in my custody. The old guy is a free lease and still registered to an older lady. I suppose in a worst case scenario I could have some person show up and demand to see him for purposes of estate valuation, and then I’d wind up having to pay meat price to save him from auction, unless they were crazy enough to really try to sell him at auction.

[chestnutmarebeware]

Seems as though the consensus so far is that a paper trail often counts as proof of ownership. We usually all have that, thank goodness.

However, I guess my devil’s-advocate question would be, if you were standing in front of a judge, do you think that would be enough? I’m obviously not a lawyer—just wondering, because all that paperwork (except brand inspections, bills of sale) says we’re the owners because we say we’re the owners when it’s being completed. Does that make sense? It seems a bit circular to me…

[trubandloki]

I think it says more that you are the one who has provided care for this animal for this length of time. Not sure much that you are the owner, but you are the person who has been responsible for care, custody and control of said critter. The judge can deduce from that what they want to.

It seems reasonable that a person would not pay for PPE and years of health care for an animal they did not have a reason to pay for.

[analise]

Isn’t that why they say possession is 9/10ths?

[drmgncolor]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;7041570]
I have permanent brand inspection travel cards on all of my horses, plus registration papers (for those that are registered), bills of sale, vet receipts and a many, many photos. One of mine also is branded with a freeze mark (BLM style brand) and another has an RPSI brand (which you can barely see).

The only other thing I plan to do is microchip, which could help someone find me if any of them are ever “misplaced.”[/QUOTE]

I moved to Colorado from a state that does not have brand inspections, so my mare has never been inspected. I was told when I moved here I only need to get her inspected should she leave the state or be sold/re-homed in the state of Colorado… at which time her registration papers or bill of sale would be suitable as proof of ownership (there is a gray area for horses that come from states where there is no brand inspection)

I have her ASB registry papers in my name, numerous vet records since she was 3 years old, photos from over the years, witnesses, and she is micro-chipped and all the information is current in the hosting DB.

I highly recommend micro-chipping for every pet, including a horse. Especially when these fires came through and some people had to open the pasture gates and hope for the best.

[LauraKY]

Yes, absolutely. I have a bill of sale and cancelled check for every horse I’ve ever owned…even the so called freebies. I’m down to one horse and I have his bill of sale and his registration paper, years of Coggins and vaccination records.

[Calhoun]

Bill of sale and registration papers on current horse. When I imported a horse, bill of sale from agent, not owner of horse (agent claimed owner was on vacation) and registration papers.

[RubyTuesday]

I guess the subsequent question we all need to be asking ourselves it this: what are we going to do about the society, and the hobby itself, to change the idea/construct that the burden of proof of the ownership of a horse is on the owner rather than on any asshat that would challenge it? I mean, seriously, the papers should always be transferred and yet they are not. Papers should be considered like a title and yet they are not, they are often tossed into a file cabinet and forgotten about until an “Oh My God” situation comes up. Many states do not have brand inspections, and we don’t even want to go there about NAIS. So what can/will/should we be doing to be sure we don’t have to produce paper trails, have Jesus appear, etc., to prove our horses are indeed, ours, in the face of some asshat saying otherwise, especially if they have removed the horse unlawfully?

[bugsynskeeter]

I’m 99% sure that AQHA states in their handbook that papers do not equate ownership.

[drmgncolor]

[QUOTE=bugsynskeeter;7041629]
I’m 99% sure that AQHA states in their handbook that papers do not equate ownership.[/QUOTE]

While that may be true, if the papers are in my name with an association then surely that can’t hurt my case in proving the horse is mine?

I am still listed with ASHA as the owner of a horse I sold when I was 15. The burden was on the new owners to change the registry information. Which they did not. So I see why the papers do not equate to ownership legally.

[suzier444]

Easily. I have a signed sales contract/bill of sale and a copy of the cashier’s check I paid for her with, in addition to her official papers, plus oodles of emails with her very-reputable original owners/breeders that clearly indicate the transfer in ownership. Plus I’ve kept meticulous records of everything that’s happened since I owned her, including her breed-registration paperwork. Also she’s microchipped AND tatooed, so there’s no doubt she’s her…and I have eight million photographs of every inch of her. Most importantly, I trust the people I got her from completely and I know they’d assist in any dispute. Also I have access to good lawyers and I have the intensity of a category 5 hurricane when wronged. It would end poorly for anybody that went up against me for something like this.