Proving Ownership—Could You Really Do It?

[Bluey]

I have a bill of sale for mine.

The AQHA registration certificate is NOT proof of ownership, because anyone may send a properly signed transfer and that is the name it will be on the papers, if that person legally owns the horse or not.
The AQHA doesn’t has any way to prove who is who, that is why the legal term of who is on the papers is “the owner of record”, that is maybe not necessarily the “legal” owner.
Other, like a bill of sale, will have to confirm who is the legal owner.

Proving ownership is a common problem in divorces, be sure you have the right paperwork for your horses.

[MistyBlue]

AQHA papers registered in my name and signed bills of sale for each one. This is why everyone repeats it so many many many times: Get It In Writing! Every time. All the time. Always. Even if it seems silly. Or is between friends. Or is free. And it can’t hurt to find some sort of registry for even your unknown mixed breeds if possible…and register them in your name. Also some areas will ask for property taxes paid on horses. (something I heartily disagree with ) If so, you can obtain a proof of taxes paid on horses owned from town hall. It won’t state horse info, but you can prove you own/pay taxes on ____ amount of horses. Also a help is any insurance policies you may have on your horses.

[2horseygirls]

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;7041578]
Seems as though the consensus so far is that a paper trail often counts as proof of ownership. We usually all have that, thank goodness.

However, I guess my devil’s-advocate question would be, if you were standing in front of a judge, do you think that would be enough? I’m obviously not a lawyer—just wondering, because all that paperwork (except brand inspections, bills of sale) says we’re the owners because we say we’re the owners when it’s being completed. Does that make sense? It seems a bit circular to me…[/QUOTE]

I know a couple of equine law attorneys, and will inquire what holds up in their particular locales.

I wonder if there is anything like a common-law marriage, where if you have vet bills/farrier/Coggins/insurance, etc on a horse for ___ years, you are the defacto owner?

Will report back!

[FalseImpression]

Mine are not registered but I have the passport and receipt for the clyde x mare and 12 years of vet, farrier, boarding paperwork.
My daughter got the passport and $1 Bill of sale for the 20 yo ISH she bought back from his owner last April.
And she has a receipt plus PPE, boarding paperwork and farrier’s receipt for the Belgian x she bought last year.
Plus tons of witnesses…

[cloudyandcallie]

Bills of sale, check.
witnesses to purchases, check. (including a BNT in FL)
all medical records since date of purchase, check.
microchips, check.
farrier records, check.
Registry certificates, check.

As a retired prosecutor, I know that written documents are preferred over parole evidence. (That’s verbal evidence, btw.)

So I’ve kept all my records. My vet(s), same vet service, all know my horses too well, as do the 2 farriers they’ve had over the years. Plus I never sell or give away my horses, so I’d be demanding everyone polygraph (no it’s not like on TV!) if someone laid claim to my 2…assuming the person survived.

And to answer the question, I was in court on trial for over 28 yrs of 33 yrs as an attorney, yes, a paper trail of evidence is sufficient to show ownership. (I’ve stood in front of judges, partied with judges, gone boating with judges, and been friends with judges. They know a paper trail is sufficient to show ownership of a horse.)

[chestnutmarebeware]

[QUOTE=2horseygirls;7041686]
I know a couple of equine law attorneys, and will inquire what holds up in their particular locales.

I wonder if there is anything like a common-law marriage, where if you have vet bills/farrier/Coggins/insurance, etc on a horse for ___ years, you are the defacto owner?

Will report back![/QUOTE]

Thanks, 2horseygirls! Can’t wait to hear what legal minds can tell us!

[wendy]

registration papers in my name- but it occurs to me that if your horse is kind of generic-looking, someone could claim that THIS horse isn’t the one listed on the papers, and easily get away with it.
So the only real way to go is microchip, brand, tattoo, and perhaps take some very clear photos of the horse’s identifying marks- details of white facial markings, or scarring, or the like and keep a little “in case he goes missing” packet.

[analise]

[QUOTE=wendy;7041705]
registration papers in my name- but it occurs to me that if your horse is kind of generic-looking, someone could claim that THIS horse isn’t the one listed on the papers, and easily get away with it.
So the only real way to go is microchip, brand, tattoo, and perhaps take some very clear photos of the horse’s identifying marks- details of white facial markings, or scarring, or the like and keep a little “in case he goes missing” packet.[/QUOTE]

That is one good thing about ending up with a spotted horse (I really wanted something bay)…he’s pretty distinctive.

[Tee]

Yup. I have one with no identifiable markings and one with a sock. I have bills of sale, have transferred their registration papers to my name. And because of the few markings, I have them both microchipped. Plus anyone that knows me has known both of them since the day I got them, including my vet and farrier.

[vtdobes]

Registration papers usually state “recorded owner”…a bill of sale will trump that every time.

Both of my horses were literally born in my lap from a mare that I owned. So, am their breeder and original and current record owner. Because of this I have vet/farrier records on both for their entire lives. They are also both DNA typed (required for registration) so while they have minimal markings there is no denying who they are.

Just the number of people who know me and know my horses…there is NO way someone else could claim ownership.

[dogontired]

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;7041578]

However, I guess my devil’s-advocate question would be, if you were standing in front of a judge, do you think that would be enough? I’m obviously not a lawyer—just wondering, because all that paperwork (except brand inspections, bills of sale) says we’re the owners because we say we’re the owners when it’s being completed. Does that make sense? It seems a bit circular to me…[/QUOTE]

That begs the question of who the parties are in front of the judge. If you were in the VA stolen horse situation, the woman has a signed bill of sale, but the wingnut on the other side (who has physical possession of the horse) says that’s not her signature and that she has a bill of sale from the previous horse owner. They are currently in a standoff until the police dept gets a handwriting analysis of the wingnut’s handwriting and the signature on the BOS. Icing on the cake is that wingnut is shocked that she has to come to the police station and submit her handwriting sample in person by writing on a piece of paper in front of the police. Now she won’t cooperate… you get the idea here.

The situation about what happens if you are standing in front of a judge is very fact-specific. If no BOS or other primary evidence of ownership, then you go to secondary evidence of ownership, e.g. years of pix, vet bills, farrier bills, etc. If the other party does not have the same long-term evidence, or will not produce it, then the judge will most likely go by credibility of the parties and any witnesses they may present.

[HungarianHippo]

I could on one. Not on the other. It was a convoluted and urgent situation (owner moved away and abandoned her at a co-op self-care facility. After 6-7 months the BO gave up and hooked up his trailer to take her to auction. Fellow self-care boarders (who had been feeding her from their supplies of hay, just out of charity) pleaded if they could get her a home TODAY, would he let them? My phone rang and a trailer was rattling down my driveway that day. I did get a handwritten $1 bill of sale but who knows if the BO went through proper channels to get the stableman’s lien in place. Don’t really care–it was the right thing to do and 6 yrs later she’s still grazing outside my window.

[mpsbarnmanager]

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;7041485]
The recent stolen-horse thread started me thinking about how I could actually “prove” ownership of my three girls if I needed to. Two of them are JC-registered, but came to me free off the track, with nothing but a coggins and a halter to their name. Stupid, perhaps, but I didn’t get a bill of sale ($1 ???) on either of them. Just pulled a trailer up, and their trainer loaded them, patted them and said, “have fun.”

The third is a registered paint but as I don’t plan to show at breed shows, I never bothered to transfer ownership to myself. Again, stupid, perhaps, but there it is.

So, I have years’ worth of paperwork that IMPLY that these girls belong to me (coggins, vaccination certs., vet bill receipts, boarding contracts, etc.), but nothing that legally proves it.

I’m guessing I’m not alone in this situation, and am interested in whether others have the same concern floating around in the back of their minds?[/QUOTE]

With 2 of my 4, yes. My longtime mare is JC registered and we have a bill of sale. The Arab mare I was “gifted” has a bill of sale in my name too. I have not changed ownership with the arab registry yet. I “traded” taking on ownership of an aged QH mare for the owners 3 horse slant load gooseneck trailer. So I got the trailer free in exchange for letting the owner quit paying her board and saying thanks for taking my horse on. Sounds really stupid, and in a way yes it was. The trailer is worth about 8k, and I love her mare, have known her since she was young, and her mare and my mare are BFF’s and have been for 15 years. Mare has navicular and is basically useless. Call me a sucker. No bill of sale on her, owner had no idea where her reg papers were. And my pony man is not technically mine, but I have a detailed free lease contract on him.

[vtdobes]

[QUOTE=dogontired;7041766]

The situation about what happens if you are standing in front of a judge is very fact-specific. If no BOS or other primary evidence of ownership, then you go to secondary evidence of ownership, e.g. years of pix, vet bills, farrier bills, etc. If the other party does not have the same long-term evidence, or will not produce it, then the judge will most likely go by credibility of the parties and any witnesses they may present.[/QUOTE]

This would apply in my situation. My mare is 9 years old and she’s been seen by the same vet every year (and the same vet saw her mother through the whole pregnancy and before) and has seen the same farrier every 6-8 weeks her whole life…not to mention my farrier lives next door and we do dog and horse stuff together ALL the time). So I have two very credible professionals who’ve known my horse (and my younger horse) their entire lives. Not to mention the million photos I have documenting every second of their lives. No one else would have any of those things!

[LittleblackMorgan]

I have a bill of sale-BUT the BOS has the mare’s name spelled wrong and missed a marking (white heel bulb). The breed was technically correct.
She’s still registered to her breeder, and it’s my understanding that when he sold his horses, he would not release the papers (this is what I was told by the new owners of my mare’s babies…why someone would buy a branded WB without papers, for 6 figures, I don’t know).

I have all the paperwork to get her papers, but I never sent it in. I’m not breeding her anytime soon, so what’s the rush? She’s also triple registered and her main registry (Oldenburg) is the easiest to get replacement papers for, I’m finding.

I too have all the vet records.

[spotteddrafter]

Yes - I have the bill of sale, copy of transfer request, new papers that clearly show I’m the owner, and a copy of the certified check I paid with - with a the receipt marked paid in full with the bill of sale. I am an active member in the registry, and regularly check the database to make sure all is in order with her registration. I also have all other documentation in order: vet records and receipts, farrier, coggins, shots, etc. In addition, I have always stayed in regular contact with and provided yearly photo updates to her former owner. We are on very friendly terms and I know they would prove to be valuable witnesses as trial (which is a significant reason to NOT burn any bridges). My horse is very uniquely marked, and has a very significant scar so easily identifiable. She is known by many people who are fans of the breed, and any of them (who I’m friends with on FB) would easily identify me as the owner. I identify with Suzier444…no one would want to even think of messing with me - it would end very badly.

[morganpony86]

I have registration papers on all 3 of mine, with the former owner’s signature on them as the seller.

But don’t microchips count? All 3 of mine are microchipped. Their numbers are listed on Coggins tests that I pull annually. Match microchip # in horse to Coggins paper with me listed as the owner.

[LarkspurCO]

@drmgncolor;7041592

I moved to Colorado from a state that does not have brand inspections, so my mare has never been inspected. I was told when I moved here I only need to get her inspected should she leave the state or be sold/re-homed in the state of Colorado… at which time her registration papers or bill of sale would be suitable as proof of ownership (there is a gray area for horses that come from states where there is no brand inspection)

I also brought in horses from out of state. Technically, you need a brand inspection in Colorado if you move her more than 75 miles within the state. See item #2 here, and consider getting a permanent travel card:

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/ag_Brands/CBON/1251621325590

[snbess]

Yep. My mare is JC registered, I have the bill of sale and her papers that were transferred to me. My gelding has a brand inspection as well as the bill of sale, though I suppose if there was another horse with his exact markings, it might be tough to prove he is himself. He’s not a JC TB, so no tattoo on him.

[danceronice]

[QUOTE=chestnutmarebeware;7041578]

However, I guess my devil’s-advocate question would be, if you were standing in front of a judge, do you think that would be enough? I’m obviously not a lawyer—just wondering, because all that paperwork (except brand inspections, bills of sale) says we’re the owners because we say we’re the owners when it’s being completed. Does that make sense? It seems a bit circular to me…[/QUOTE]

Well, in my case, besides all the papers and the permanent identifying mark (the tattoo) proving this horse is who I say he is, we have the last owner of record before me who took a check (which I can still access on that account to show the cancelled check, which includes a line with the name of the horse) in payment for the horse, the old boarding barn with contracts identifying the horse with me as owner, and someone claiming he wasn’t mine wouldn’t have anything (and good luck forging a bill of sale with MY signature…not the easiest in the world to copy.)

Now, if my FATHER wanted to claim ownership that would get interesting as the horse is on his property (as he “gripes” about paying for hay and the vet and then refuses to let me do it when I offer-as mom has said, he likes being Farmer Dad, plus for a while I was unemployed and he knew unemployment insurance was not equal to my old paycheck) but he wouldn’t actually take it to court.