Proving Ownership—Could You Really Do It?

[cloudyandcallie]

Hey, dogontired, my state’s police dept. just decided to disband its handwriting analysis dept. I don’t understand why, as I’ve used handwriting experts in court and think the science is OK, not 100% effective, but then the experts only give a scientific opinion. They don’t state their opinions as fact. And the feds just decided that forensic dentists aren’t science. Another thing I disagree with, even though I never used one in court. but others in my office did. I did have a dentist testify against me as an expert on bite marks on a 2 yr old killed by the mother’s boyfriend, but that didn’t fly with my jury.

If you take in an abandoned horse, and take care of him for months or years and rehab him, then if someone shows up and claims him, you should have pix of how he looked when you got him, written info from anyone who knew of the abandonment, including neighbors and AC and sheriff, etc., and all your records. Then tell the owner you want 800 a month board and rehab expenses too, and all incidental expenses and farrier and vet as well.

Years ago, people on Coth on this same subject said I was paranoid because I keep all my records for my animals, including canceled checks for purchase of the horses. And I want my coggins paperwork to reflect every marking on my horses.
Ever since federal judges started calling some scientific findings “junk science,” we have to make sure we have every record possible, including those which are classified as “junk science.”

[PRS]

My senior gelding is registered in my name, I have his AQHA papers to prove it. The younger gelding was born on my place out of my mare by my daughter in law’s stallion. I have his baby pictures and vet records with detailed pictures of his markings and scars (from accident when he was 3 months old) to prove he’s been on my place from day one. Although the mare has now passed I still have her original bill of sale. My vet uses photographs for the coggins now instead of drawing pictures of the markings so I also have those.

[rcloisonne]

[QUOTE=danceronice;7041551]
As Lucky’s tattooed and I have his JC papers, signed over to me on the transfer, am actually listed with the JC as his owner (it’s easy to do now …[/QUOTE]
It’s so easy, if I knew your horse’s JC registered name, I could go to that website and “register” him/her in MY name. Worthless registry.
As far as I know, a BOS is the only thing that stands up in court as proof of ownership. Breed registry papers are NOT proof. Neither are vet bills or microchips.

[drmgncolor]

[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;7041934]
I also brought in horses from out of state. Technically, you need a brand inspection in Colorado if you move her more than 75 miles within the state. See item #2 here, and consider getting a permanent travel card:

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/ag_Brands/CBON/1251621325590[/QUOTE]

Oh yes, the 75 mile thing… I forgot about that since she hasn’t moved over the limit since arrival… but even then the agent I spoke to said the most important thing was to get her inspected for sale or leaving the state. I do mean to get the permanent travel card though, once there is reason for me to do so.

[rhinestone_cowgirl]

Yup, I have bill of sale and papers in my name.

[RLastInstallment]

Debatable. I have registration papers in my possession for three of them, but no bill of sale, and only one horse is registered in my name.

I do have copies of the checks both on hand and accessible through my bank, and have witnesses who saw the transactions. I have many years of paper trails, and my horses are pretty well-known in these parts. My Appy is notorious… and it was pretty weird at first when someone would walk up and go “Oh, I know him!” or “I know his sister!” or “I helped foal him, I bred him, I rode him, I know his last owner, I saw him knock down a barn wall one day…” etc…

So, even though there are many people who could ID my horses as mine, if someone was determined he may be able to pull it off.

I do have the transfer papers for my Appy all filled out… I never sent them in because when I was 16, $80 was a little steep for getting him registered in my name. Perhaps I should mail them out.

[Bluey]

Registration papers may be used to prove it is the right horse.
Bill of sale to indicate who bought it and when and so may claim to be the owner now.

If the horse is registered in your name when you bought it, double proof if you ever need to prove it, like if it is lost or stolen, or someone claims it, as in a divorce or any other legal dispute.

[PeteyPie]

I have two freebies with no bills of sale because I didn’t pay even a dollar for them. I was given the JC registrations with the horses, and the registrations are signed off, but I don’t know if I have added my name.

The scenario that I would worry about proving ownership would not be with the previous owners, but in the case of theft, where it would be nice to have the paperwork at hand, IN HAND, in order, and ready to present to the police. That would include a bill of sale, not just the JC registration with its brief description.

So why couldn’t I just sell the horses to a friend or family member for a dollar, then buy them back with a good, well-written bill of sale? That way, I could insure that the bill of sale was complete and would include very detailed physical descriptions and photos of the horses. I can’t imagine there would be any legal problem with that, unless it were done in the middle of an ownership dispute.

[Bluey]

Here, we have a cattlemen’s association program to register any horse with them and so that counts as a proof of ownership if their inspectors find the horse somewhere else.
When you register it, they will even brand them for you with whatever brand you choose, that you then register in the court house.
Some stolen horses have been found thru that program.

Just adding more layers to prove ownership.

[clanter]

We have Morgan horses, all have blood samples on file with the association so we could easily use a DNA test

At one show we were confronted by the Department of Agriculture vets who were drawing blood samples on class winners to check for drugs… when presented with our then nineteen year old mare they said the papers were not correct for the horse as the horse in front of them, they said could not be that old.

Show management had to be brought in to confirm the horse that was in front of them was the horse on the papers.

[paulaedwina]

Bill of sale, identifying scars (also the Coggins has this information on scars and markings).

Paula

[sunridge1]

DNA would prove that I am the registered owner and breeder of mine. There is no other name on the pedigree.

[bluebuckets]

Yep. I’m listed with JC as owner, I have the original JC foal registration paper, I have a bill of sale, horse is registered as mine with USHJA, I have vet records going all the way back to when I bought her, and all paperwork lists her tattoo and markings as identifying information. I can also tell you every scar on that horse from memory, complete with measurements. (Five inch, straight, thin, clean scar on the outside of the left front cannon; small, circular, diameter 1 cm, scar on head just below and to the left of the center of the forehead, so two inches down from and two inches over from the tear duct of the right eye… you get the picture)

[Trevelyan96]

Most definitely.

Must be my crappy upbringing, because I just don’t trust people with anything of value to me. I’m anal about sales contracts, lease agreements, etc. Good contracts contribute greatly to successful transactions and protect both the buyer and seller. If someone won’t sign a contract, I won’t engage in the transaction. Doesn’t matter to me if the horse in question is $1 or 6 figures!

Both my current boys are OTTB’s, and I have both their JC papers and sales contracts. I would not insist on papers that aren’t available to the seller, but if they have them, I want them transferred to me.

In addition, Rico is micro-chipped. The chip is probably a bit of overkill, but I look at it as a $35 insurance policy that assures I can claim him as mine if he were to be lost or stolen.

[laskiblue]

My mare’s registration papers are in my name, and there is a picture of her on the back of it. Granted, the picture is of when she was an exceptionally homely weanling (LOL), and being an Appy, her coloration has changed quite a bit, but there’s no mistaking her head in the picture. This thread is timely though; I’ve been meaning to scan a copy of her registration papers onto my hard drive as an extra precaution – no time like the present.

[ReSomething]

[QUOTE=PeteyPie;7042136]
I have two freebies with no bills of sale because I didn’t pay even a dollar for them. I was given the JC registrations with the horses, and the registrations are signed off, but I don’t know if I have added my name.

The scenario that I would worry about proving ownership would not be with the previous owners, but in the case of theft, where it would be nice to have the paperwork at hand, IN HAND, in order, and ready to present to the police. That would include a bill of sale, not just the JC registration with its brief description.

So why couldn’t I just sell the horses to a friend or family member for a dollar, then buy them back with a good, well-written bill of sale? That way, I could insure that the bill of sale was complete and would include very detailed physical descriptions and photos of the horses. I can’t imagine there would be any legal problem with that, unless it were done in the middle of an ownership dispute.[/QUOTE]

That could be considered fraud, if you did it just to obtain a BOS.
Granted in real life that may be the way it happens, for example if we sell pony with a BOS the new owner has good paper from us - it’s us that can’t prove that we didn’t load the little bugger up on a free lease and then just keep him.

But from some of the threads on here that happens (sale of a free leased horse), frequently, and the old owner seems to be at a disadvantage trying to recover the horse, so . . .

[cloudyandcallie]

No, what she wants or may do as stated is not fraud. It’s simply her way of making sure she has a bill of sale for the horse. To commit fraud, you have to have the intent to defraud someone. There also has to be a victim, either human or a corporate identity or breed registry, etc., that you are trying to deceive. So both elements are missing from that scenario, no victim and no intent to defraud. (Unless, as she says, if she were in the middle of a dispute over ownership and did the transfer then. Then it is fraud. but there’s civil and criminal fraud.)

She’s just trying to make sure she has a bill of sale in hand.

The longer you own a horse, the easier it is to prove that the horse is yours. And you have witnesses, vets, farriers, trainers, BOs, fellow boarders, etc., all of whom can testify that the horse is yours. Like all the kids at our first barn (now all in college) who knew Cloudy as “Baby Cloudy.”

[ReSomething]

@cloudyandcallie;7042341

No, what she wants or may do as stated is not fraud. It’s simply her way of making sure she has a bill of sale for the horse. To commit fraud, you have to have the intent to defraud someone. There also has to be a victim, either human or a corporate identity or breed registry, etc., that you are trying to deceive. So both elements are missing from that scenario, no victim and no intent to defraud.
. . .

Thank you for the clarification. Makes me feel better about a few things.

[BEARCAT]

A Brand Inspection is not just a piece of paper.
It means the Brand Inspector was physically there and saw your horse in person.
They are probably called to testify in court every so often. They retain a copy of the transfer papers in their files.
"The Brand Inspection Division employs 55 brand inspectors located throughout the state including 10 supervisors. The annual budget for the division exceeds $4.6 million and is completely funded by fees levied to livestock owners and brand assessment fees levied every five years.

In 2010-2011, the division personnel traveled in excess of 1.1 million miles and inspected over 4.5 million head of livestock. In addition, they identified ownership of lost, stolen, or strayed and questionably owned livestock valued at over $24 million. The division inspected 4,503,999 cattle, 36,524 horses, 2 sheep and issued 4,582 permanent travel permits on horses."

“Be sure to give your Inspector at least 2-3 days notice prior to when inspection is needed.
Inspection is required for sale or movement even if the previous parties did not comply the last time the animal was sold or transported.
Inspection is required regardless of whether or not the animal is branded or not branded.
Inspection is required on all classes of stock (horses, cattle, mules or donkeys). Registration papers or the lack of registry does not exempt inspection.
The definition of a brand for the purposes of this brochure is a permanent mark on the hide of an animal registered with any state as a livestock brand (tattoos are not brands).
Inspection is required at the point of origin unless released by the local inspector. SELLER OR LEGAL AGENT MUST BE PRESENT AT THE INSPECTION.”

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/ag_Brands/CBON/1251621324149

[Bluey]

When you transfer an AQHA horse in your name, you can ask they add a picture to the registration certificate, if there is not one there or the one there you don’t care for.
Just one more way to insure it is the right horse.