I wish people were honest when selling horses. When I sell mine, I send a list with all their quirks. I’ve had a few pullers and it’s never nice finding out after you’ve owned them for a week or two. However (whispering now…) I had one which was always a bit testy. I was off for a ride and had to go to the loo soooo… I tied her up by her halter which was over the bridle to the… trampoline(which was a huge solid metal one) in her paddock while I ducked inside. Outside again 5 mins later and there was the trampoline half way across the paddock! You know, that horse NEVER ever pulled back again 
Wouldn’t recommend it. Was horrified at the time! But I taught my youngster to tie by teaching him to come forward to the pressure long before I ever started tying him up. And then I just looped it over the rail and held the end. I NEVER used a short rope - always a 12foot rope.
Haven’t read beyond the OP but I wanted to share.
I find there’s always a conflict when it comes to caring for other’s horses. I have an obligation to keep the horse safe, but I also have an obligation to abide by the horse’s owner’s wishes. Sometimes those two obligations conflict, either through the owner’s naiivete or the current definition of ‘safe’.
You want your horse blanketed a certain way, that maybe goes against the standards otherwise set forth by the barn? Of course I’ll do it… so long as the horse doesn’t get sick.
You never want your horse cross tied? I will do my level best to accommodate you, but sometimes, albeit on very rare occasions, the horse will need to be tied.
It is MY responsibility as a caretaker to provide for the horse’s safety (simultaneously maintaining my own) under ANY circumstances. Although you as an owner may disapprove of her cotton rope being very loosely knotted through one bailing twine string, if it keeps me from getting kicked in the head while I remove horse’s hind boots on a windy day, alone in the barn, then I will tie for the 30 seconds it takes to remove boots… In stall, with door closed.
The other 99% of the time, your horse IS the angel you say he is, and I can simply drop the lead rope and ask him gently to ‘stand’ and he does.
THIS alone is a mind blower for many of the ‘english’ types. They refuse to believe in ground tying and think it’s dangerous because the horse isn’t restrained somehow. What’s unfamiliar to them must be ‘wrong’… To them I say there’s more than one way to accomplish something. It’s our responsibility as caregivers to see what works best for a horse under most circumstances and to use it.
A good trainer modifies her program to suit the horse. A bad trainer expects the horse to fit in their program.
I also believe it’s highly unprofessional to assume the training (or retraining) of a horse’s so called ‘bad habits’ simply because I find them annoying or slightly dangerous. I am supposed to be the smarter one in the equation, so it’s my job to find a way to still perform my work and keep us both safe. For example, if an owner chose to feed treats out of an open tack box every day, then it is MY responsibility to move the box and be sure it’s closed, and the horse has a chain over its’ nose so I don’t get run over when handling horse.
The horse who lost his life because someone saw fit to ‘train’ him to tie --TO A TREE??-- is just one heartbreaking example of when human’s egos get in the way of horse’s idiosyncrasies. Yes… I know the way to ‘train’ them to tie is to tie them to something that wont’ breakaway. But everyone knows if they don’t ‘train’ they fight until they permanently damage themselves. Not worth it to me. I sincerely hope the horse owner brought a lawsuit against the handlers at that facility. I would be sick if that happened to me, as a horse owner.
I don’t own a pullback anymore, but I feel I have to insert that tying a pullback horse via the inner tube method. eh… no. I re-train spoiled horses year in year out for owners, and I deal with pullbacks a lot. Tying a pullback horse up to a flexy fun thing sounds like a grand idea, but it doesn’t resolve the root issue- which is the horse feels trapped and panics.
Tying is about teaching a horse to feel safe in their space wherever you put them, not about letting them, duke it out with a telephone pole. I think people get a tad to hung up on the ‘tie’ part not realizing a horse can be taught to stand anywhere anytime. I re-train pullbacks with a shit ton of patience and a looping tie, which adds friction but doesn’t bring them up short if they really go wild - they always have a way out - which is extremely important. Takes time, but effective, and prevents any type of panic attacks.
All my horses tie…now. - I won’t go into the hours it’s taken with one of my mares who was an explosive pullback when I purchased her.
Growing up I had a nice show horse who was a big puller. It was usually when you were removing his halter or bridle (poll issues) and since we showed every weekend from May through September at outdoor tie to the trailer shows, this was a big problem. There was no way you could drop his halter around his neck and bridle him. He would panic. If he was tied, then he pulled. If you messed around too near his head, he’d panic. Something would set him off, he would forget himself, the halter would tighten and the battle was on. Since he weighed #1400 he usually won.
After chasing him around the trailer a time or two, we had a heavy duty nylon rigging made for him that fastened around his girth, went up between his front legs, ran through a loop around his neck, that we tied him with. We got by with this for 3 or 4 years, and when we sold him, it went with him. The neck loop was low enough that it seemed to solve the problem of triggering his panic too.
I remember one day, sitting beside the camper on a lunch break, when all of a sudden, the whole rig groaned and dragged backwards about 6 inches. We’re talking truck with camper and two horse trailer, in gear, skidding. The horses were tied on the opposite side. We went around to see what was going on and whether or not he had broken his neck with that stunt, and he was happily munching hay again.
[QUOTE=rainechyldes;5340413]
I don’t own a pullback anymore, but I feel I have to insert that tying a pullback horse via the inner tube method. eh… no. I re-train spoiled horses year in year out for owners, and I deal with pullbacks a lot.
I understand your position…but…I and several trainers I know have used the large cottonwood (or other similar strong tree) branch with a small tire inner tube as the connection between tree and tie rope for the horse. The reason is this… it prevents the abrupt yank on either horse or tree, reducing the potential for fractures in the horse or a broken branch in the tree. There isn’t a lot of stretch in it…4-5 inches at most…but that little bit does allow for slack to be taken up a tiny bit less abruptly. The horse still has to stay in his space and he isn’t at as much risk of injury.
That sounds like a very interesting device you had made. When you say it went around his girth, do you mean a rope went around his girth, or the rope attached to the girth?
I imagine you could take a long strap, with a 2-3" diameter ring on one end, and a quick release snap on the other. Wrap around girth as if measuring for weight, pull quick-release snap end through the ring placed on bottom of belly, pull through front legs, have some kind of loose “oh sh*t” strap to run nylon through at neck so that the strap doesn’t dangle or interfere w/ movement, and then hook to trailer. Something like that?
I figure the strap could be leather, which would breakaway, or maybe nylon with a neoprene or sheepskin wrapping for the part that rests around the belly and some bailing twine tied at the quick release, too.
My first experience with a puller (and this was not a panic puller either), belonged to my best friend, and the only thing that worked with this mare was the belly rope tie, plus the tie to the halter, to keep her from breaking free at shows where she had to be tied to the trailer.
Then I bought my mare, and discovered she had this same quirk. She will cross tie all day long, but straight tied she will set back from time to time, and once the equipment breaks, she stands quietly. Much easier to just either cross tie, or ground tie this one - and at age 28 (the mare that is), I figure she does not really need to be re-trained. She will straight tie quietly if the lead is just passed through the tie ring, go figure.
[QUOTE=ake987;5340730]
I imagine you could take a long strap, with a 2-3" diameter ring on one end, and a quick release snap on the other. Wrap around girth as if measuring for weight, pull quick-release snap end through the ring placed on bottom of belly, pull through front legs, have some kind of loose “oh sh*t” strap to run nylon through at neck so that the strap doesn’t dangle or interfere w/ movement, and then hook to trailer. Something like that?[/QUOTE]
Out here we occasionally use something called a body rope or belly rope on the confirmed pull back horse. We use an old cattle rope (the ones the ropers use for roping cattle…stiff, very strong, has a twist to it, can be made of several things). You put the rope around the barrel of the horse with the hondo (the loop at the end) at the midline of the belly and about where the cinch would rest…run the long end through the hondo, forward between the front legs and up to and through the bottom ring of the halter. You also have a lead on the halter. You run the body rope through a ring on a stout post or in a single wrap around a hitching rail (preferably one made of well drilling pipe and at about mid-chest level on the horse) and hold it with some tough gloves…you want to be able to give slack with it if necessary but it can burn your hands if, somehow, it rips through your hands…never had this happen but with horses almost anything can so being prepared is best. You then tie the lead rope a slight bit longer (use a safety release of some kind…there are several knots that can/do work even if the horse is able to pull on them)…what you want is for the horse to take the slack out of the body rope BEFORE he gets the slack out of the lead tied to his halter…he doesn’t get head pressure this way but rather the body rope tightens around his barrel when he pulls back and does so BEFORE he gets to pull on the halter. The way a calf rope works is that it will release pressure by sliding back through the hondo if there is no pressure on it…so the horse learns that pulling back will put pressure on his barrel which he can relieve by stepping forward. Since this isn’t the panic trigger point he learns that stepping back will get him some pressure and stepping forward will release it and that he doesn’t have to ever pull back…there’s no need for the panic. You may have to use this for awhile but it works very well.
FYI…no padding as you want it to slide easily. Horse might lose a bit of hair and could conceivably get a rope burn (has never happened with me but again…horses…) which is why you don’t hard tie the body rope…you want to be able to give some slack (more than is in the way you tied it) if needed. Also…wide straps don’t work…they hang up.
It was constructed like a body rope, only it didn’t slip. It was back in the day when the really heavy, unbreakable soft nylon first came out. It is the stuff the heavy halters are made out of these days and wouldn’t rope burn him like a lariat would.
It wasn’t designed to tighten and train him not to pull. It was simply a harness to contain the big bugger, and it did work as evidenced by the rig pulling incident. There was a halter manufacturer here locally, and they made it to our specifications. There was a quick release panic snap (like on trailer ties) fastening both the girth and the neck rope.
The main flaw with it was that it was not adjustable. If he gained too much weight, it was hard to fasten. And, when he would tense up his neck bulged and the neck collar actually became too tight. Once he even sprang the panic snap leaving him tied with just the girth rope and nothing keeping him pointed at the trailer which was a potentially catastrophic problem. We all took a deep breath after that situation was resolved. Had he fought, he could have gotten his leg over the strap and turned leaving him fastened to the trailer by a belt around his waist. Yikes.
Mine will go back on a girth tightening when first saddled - if the right steps are taken today he will resist the urge, but pressure on the barrel is a problem. (After he’s ridden a little adjusting the girth is not an issue at all, interestingly. Yep, this has been explored and steps taken to minimize what’s bugging him.)
But, I like the concept with the adjustment of something that would put the main force of containment around the butt. Of course something would have to go across behind his withers to prevent rearing. But if going back resulted in butt pressure, not the halter, I can envision that he might respond positively.
He would still be in a state of disquiet about whatever stimulous set him off. But, if he’s still there and standing and coming forward, we are working on coping with whatever set him off at the same time.
I should say that in spite of the 5 year journey to the point where at least he stands, without tying (well he’s done that for most of the 5 years,) I do know he can be cured! Because I’ve cured this horse at least 3 times !!! 
Anyone use The Clip (or this knockoff)…
I have Blocker Tie Rings in my barn and one in the trailer. Have seen The Clip, think it’s similar, but same $$.
Schneiders also carries this knockoff or slightly different style one:
http://www.sstack.com/stable_trailer-ties-cross-ties/dura-tech-tie-ring/
Anyone use this or the CLip and have any comments on them?
I have owned pullbacks, and I teach horses to tie. I don’t believe that every horse must be tied.
First, as a barn owner and trainer. It IS NOT imperative to me that your horse ties. If we show together, you must have a stall. But wait, I must be difficult, all of my horses must have stalls.
Secondly, tying horses scares me some too. They are flight animals, and while it is common practice, I don’t like horses tied to trailers and left unattended. My barn has baling twine in all tie areas, and all horses wear leather or breakaway halters. I also do not leave halters on animals in stalls, or in turn outs.
Additionally, bungee ties are DANGEROUS. I had a young horse, properly taught to tie and crosstie in a set. He backed up, and backed up and backed up. Very calmly I might add, because he never hit poll pressure. ( and we know that the art of being tied, is the acceptance of poll pressure and learning to step forward to release it.) But, I digress. At any rate, the pressure from that stupid bungee tie, inappropriatey released the quick release snap and that thing shot me in the face. Flung me like a ragdoll almost 20 feet, and knocked me out cold. Thankfully, a good plastic surgeon at that ER sewed me up quite nicely and I didn’t loose an eye or die.
So, for those of you owners that own a pullback. You are welcome at my barn. I understand you, I want your horse safe, my people safe and my equipment intact. I may have a coupe of rules for you, but I vow to not retrain your horse when your not looking.
[QUOTE=Melelio;5341035]
I have Blocker Tie Rings in my barn and one in the trailer. Have seen The Clip, think it’s similar, but same $$.
Schneiders also carries this knockoff or slightly different style one:
http://www.sstack.com/stable_trailer-ties-cross-ties/dura-tech-tie-ring/
Anyone use this or the CLip and have any comments on them?[/QUOTE]
I love the Blocker. Works great on my horse who sometimes pulls back. I did not find the lip to work as well. It didn’t give the way the Blocker did.
[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5340822]
Out here we occasionally use something called a body rope or belly rope on the confirmed pull back horse. We use an old cattle rope (the ones the ropers use for roping cattle…stiff, very strong, has a twist to it, can be made of several things). You put the rope around the barrel of the horse with the hondo (the loop at the end) at the midline of the belly and about where the cinch would rest…run the long end through the hondo, forward between the front legs and up to and through the bottom ring of the halter. You also have a lead on the halter. You run the body rope through a ring on a stout post or in a single wrap around a hitching rail (preferably one made of well drilling pipe and at about mid-chest level on the horse) and hold it with some tough gloves…you want to be able to give slack with it if necessary but it can burn your hands if, somehow, it rips through your hands…never had this happen but with horses almost anything can so being prepared is best. You then tie the lead rope a slight bit longer (use a safety release of some kind…there are several knots that can/do work even if the horse is able to pull on them)…what you want is for the horse to take the slack out of the body rope BEFORE he gets the slack out of the lead tied to his halter…he doesn’t get head pressure this way but rather the body rope tightens around his barrel when he pulls back and does so BEFORE he gets to pull on the halter. The way a calf rope works is that it will release pressure by sliding back through the hondo if there is no pressure on it…so the horse learns that pulling back will put pressure on his barrel which he can relieve by stepping forward. Since this isn’t the panic trigger point he learns that stepping back will get him some pressure and stepping forward will release it and that he doesn’t have to ever pull back…there’s no need for the panic. You may have to use this for awhile but it works very well.
FYI…no padding as you want it to slide easily. Horse might lose a bit of hair and could conceivably get a rope burn (has never happened with me but again…horses…) which is why you don’t hard tie the body rope…you want to be able to give some slack (more than is in the way you tied it) if needed. Also…wide straps don’t work…they hang up.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Thank you so much for taking the time to type this all out, I am absolutely going to try it with my gelding! I think he will respond appropriately to barrel pressure, whereas the immediate pressure on his head freaks him out and sends him into panic mode. Thank you, thank you.
yes Im in the club and I have just 3 words to say: Blocker Tie Ring
I discovered days after buying him that my paint trail horse is a panic pullback. He’ll stand tied quietly for hours, until something spooks him, then if he sucks back and hits the hard tie, he panics. And it’s ake described above - blind panic, no reason, fights and fights until something breaks. After he flipped over the second time (in a trail head parking lot, breaking the trailer tie ring, bloodying his face and freaking everyone out), I stopped hard tying him.
He does cross tie at the arena, but I only tie him in the wash rack where there’s a wall behind him. 90% of the time, I simply loop the leadrope over or through the tie ring or hitching post (we trail ride) and then twist it around itself to create a bit of friction. He’ll stand for hours, thinking he’s hard tied, but if he does panic about something, he can pull rope and self-calm. I use a the Blocker if I have to tie him to a tree - I tie a leadrope around the tree, hook the blocker to it, then attach him to the blocker. It’s a bit more work, but I don’t have to worry about a situation like that poor horse at the Houston barn. Typically I use a rope halter on him for trail riding and a standard one for cross-tying.
Do I tell people? Yes. I tell the people that need to know - my trainer, my farrier, my vet, anyone I’m trail riding with, and anyone else that’s responsible for caring for him. While I’m not proud that he “doesn’t tie” I’d rather that no one put him in a situation where he, or they, could get hurt than hide my shame. Can it be inconvenient? Sure. But there are a lot of other issues that would be a bigger deal to me.
[QUOTE=ake987;5341685]
Wow. Thank you so much for taking the time to type this all out, I am absolutely going to try it with my gelding! I think he will respond appropriately to barrel pressure, whereas the immediate pressure on his head freaks him out and sends him into panic mode. Thank you, thank you.[/QUOTE]
You may want to make sure the horse responds to pressure on his barrel by stepping forward before trying this in a tying situation. First of all make sure he’s OK with a rope around him…flip it over, under, around, between legs, over ears…everywhere…until he is standing quietly and looking a bit bored. (Ive even taken coils of rope and hung them on his ears). I would put the rope around his barrel with the hondo over the top of the horse and laying about where the cinch ring would be on a western saddle (or the buckles on the girth on an English)…bring the long end under him and through the hondo…to loosen you simply allow some slack. If your horse works on a lunge line this is easy…you just combine the verbal cue or cluck or whatever you use to “walk” with a tightening of the rope around his barrel…and “whoa” gets some slack. Work in fairly small circles so that you aren’t confusing him with this and he doesn’t try to come in toward you. Gradually drop the verbal cue and get him to move forward whenever the rope tightens a bit. The next thing I would do would be to set it up as described for tying but don’t tie…use the long end of the rope to “lead” the horse from in front of him…light pull and he steps forward…reinforce with lead on the halter…reward (release pressure and give pets) for even the slightest try at first and then begin asking for better and better response more and more quickly. Baby sized steps for each level and make sure that he is consistant at one before going to the next. At the point he’s consistant with this you can go to using for tying. Be sure that your own anxiety isn’t transmitted to the horse and keep things calm and quiet, especially your voice.
[QUOTE=Equsrider;5339844]
[B]sending the halter still attached to the bungee tie flying thru the air straight forwards and into the face of his old owner, where the brass fittings of the halter proceeded to break her nose, checkbone,jaw, and almost took out her eye…It was HORRIFFIC!!!
I wondered if I was the only one who saw this coming. ANY tie can ricochet back and damage or kill a person or the horse. If the horse is crosstied and only ONE of the ties breaks, flies forward and comes back it can still hit with tremendous force.
pullers are dangerous and if there is another way around it…I wouldn’t even think of tying.
[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5338912]
Someone please tell me what I’m doing wrong as I obviously must be doing something not right… my horses are not taking all the time I hear so many taking and are just not being fussy or difficult enough.[/QUOTE]
Good for you. I say there are horses for whatever reason that it is simply not safe to tie. You haven’t met them yet.
[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5339332]
Because those issues too are amenable to training if done correctly. And a horse is much larger so things go south in a much bigger way that it is worth fixing.[/QUOTE]
Re: dogs.
sometimes and sometimes not. Every animal is an individual and there are some dogs who will only train to a point.
I’ve got a dog here who can tolerate a dremel but not clippers. The issue isn’t going to be trained through. It’s too deeply ingrained at this point. Since I got him at 8, I didn’t do the training and there is no fixing it at this point.
I feel the same way about horses who are willing to hurt themselves or anyone in the way when tied. Why fight it if there is another way around it?
I guess in my life there are issues worth fighting about and those that are not, tying up a horse who is going to fight hard and long enough to hurt themselves, me or tear down a barn, pull a trailer over, kill a tree…or whatever…it’s just not worth it. As a trainer, I’d damn well better have more than one tool in my toolbox for working around this.
