Pullback Owners Anonymous

[ake987]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5342692]
You may want to make sure the horse responds to pressure on his barrel by stepping forward before trying this in a tying situation. First of all make sure he’s OK with a rope around him…flip it over, under, around, between legs, over ears…everywhere…until he is standing quietly and looking a bit bored. (Ive even taken coils of rope and hung them on his ears). I would put the rope around his barrel with the hondo over the top of the horse and laying about where the cinch ring would be on a western saddle (or the buckles on the girth on an English)…bring the long end under him and through the hondo…to loosen you simply allow some slack. If your horse works on a lunge line this is easy…you just combine the verbal cue or cluck or whatever you use to “walk” with a tightening of the rope around his barrel…and “whoa” gets some slack. Work in fairly small circles so that you aren’t confusing him with this and he doesn’t try to come in toward you. Gradually drop the verbal cue and get him to move forward whenever the rope tightens a bit. The next thing I would do would be to set it up as described for tying but don’t tie…use the long end of the rope to “lead” the horse from in front of him…light pull and he steps forward…reinforce with lead on the halter…reward (release pressure and give pets) for even the slightest try at first and then begin asking for better and better response more and more quickly. Baby sized steps for each level and make sure that he is consistant at one before going to the next. At the point he’s consistant with this you can go to using for tying. Be sure that your own anxiety isn’t transmitted to the horse and keep things calm and quiet, especially your voice.[/QUOTE]

I think this should be an easy transition for us. I once forgot his halter and only grabbed a lead. At the time (8 months ago? He now demands ear rubs) he was still fairly headshy, so I figured I would see how he reacted to trying to be lead from the belly. Easy as pie. I’ve done it several times since then, and he leads from the girth like he does from the halter. Very interesting info, thanks again!

[KSAQHA]

FWIW - if you try a belly rope, use a newer one. The last time I had one on a horse, it broke at the honda (you save tomato, I say tomahto. ) when the mare threw a fit. Must have been past its prime…who would have thunk?

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5343346]
Good for you. I say there are horses for whatever reason that it is simply not safe to tie. You haven’t met them yet.[/QUOTE]

Oh no…I’ve met them (with between 20 and 40 horses at my place for most of 30 some years I’ve seen a few of almost anything the silly things can think to do)…I’ve just never met one I couldn’t train to tie. Maybe its a more western thing… horses tie and we don’t excuse one that doesn’t…we fix it so that the horse learns to do this. Same with other things I hear about here. I think ya’ll are a lot easier on your horses that most of us out here who use them for working. Maybe just a difference in perspective.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5344432]
Maybe its a more western thing… horses tie and we don’t excuse one that doesn’t…we fix it so that the horse learns to do this. .[/QUOTE]

I’ve been reading your posts for some time and this is what you say a lot.

if the horse is willing to kill itself rather than be tied, you would let it? Believe it or not, there are things in the world that can’t be fixed.

[KSAQHA]

I remember reading an article on Teddy Robinson and a futurity mare he was successfully exhibiting a few years ago (can’t recall her name) - she was a puller. He said she was too valuable to risk injury, so he always had someone hold her. I felt ‘slightly’ vindicated - if Teddy Robinson couldn’t train it out of her, then who could? :lol:

Guess value is relative.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5344543]
if the horse is willing to kill itself rather than be tied, you would let it? Believe it or not, there are things in the world that can’t be fixed.[/QUOTE]

In stock horse land it isn’t likely to get to the point where it can’t be fixed. It is a horse culture which is likely to expect a horse to straight tie on a regular basis from an early age.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5344543]
I’ve been reading your posts for some time and this is what you say a lot.

if the horse is willing to kill itself rather than be tied, you would let it? Believe it or not, there are things in the world that can’t be fixed.[/QUOTE]

I truly believe that if you break things down into small enough steps and go through each one thoroughly you can fix almost everything. It may take a long time and lots of patience and in some cases owners or trainers don’t have that kind of time or maybe that level of patience. I’ve only ever seen one horse that was truly suicidal (not one of mine nor one I was hired to train)…and he got put down due to it…his owner was not going to trust his life to a horse that didn’t care about his own. Due to this I don’t think that the vast majority of pullers will actually try to kill themselves…they may do so accidently but it is the owner/trainers responsibility to teach without pushing to that point.

Certainly horses going into competitive events at the age of long three year olds have a lot to learn…if they come to a trainer with some bad habits there may not be time to correct those as well as learn all that does absolutely need to be done…so sometimes things will get bypassed in favor of the more important training for competition. This is one reason many trainers for western events would rather not have owners do anything other than possibly halter break them. I’ve been fortunate in having trainers that like what I do with my foals and feel that it saves them time in teaching basics and they also like that I don’t pussyfoot around problems…they get addressed as soon as they show up and before they become huge issues.

[katarine]

[QUOTE=KSAQHA;5344776]
I remember reading an article on Teddy Robinson and a futurity mare he was successfully exhibiting a few years ago (can’t recall her name) - she was a puller. He said she was too valuable to risk injury, so he always had someone hold her. I felt ‘slightly’ vindicated - if Teddy Robinson couldn’t train it out of her, then who could? :lol:

Guess value is relative.[/QUOTE]

That was my point with the rope horse story earlier in this thread. They worked around his quirks.

ColoredCowHorse, as much as I get where you are coming from, I see the flip side, too. One of the nicest horses I’ve ever ridden - a retired Prelim level three day horse- does not straight tie, he’s never been taught, and at 20 years of age, there’s no reason to pick at him and ‘make’ him or ‘teach’ him. HE cross ties, and he stands quietly on the trailer at shows. So what. I don’t imagine he’s going to the Tuesday night roping and tied to the arena fence any time soon.

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;5344810]
In stock horse land it isn’t likely to get to the point where it can’t be fixed. It is a horse culture which is likely to expect a horse to straight tie on a regular basis from an early age.[/QUOTE]

so, if you buy a horse at…age 8, and it’s a confirmed puller, but it is a stock horse…the level of injury will be less because it’s a stock horse?

[threedogpack]

see, we aren’t talking about people who have raised these horses from babies. We’re talking about horses that ARRIVE with the problem in place.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=KSAQHA;5344776]
I remember reading an article on Teddy Robinson and a futurity mare he was successfully exhibiting a few years ago (can’t recall her name) - she was a puller. He said she was too valuable to risk injury, so he always had someone hold her. I felt ‘slightly’ vindicated - if Teddy Robinson couldn’t train it out of her, then who could? :lol:

Guess value is relative.[/QUOTE]

I have the greatest respect for Teddy and have talked with him on several occasions about my own horses and my goals. Trainers going for big events such as the Snaffle Bit (which is the biggest of the reined cowhorse events and where Teddy has won it 7 or maybe 8 times now) will sometimes get horses in who already have bad habits established…often by owners who don’t know how to train and actually end up reinforcing those habits rather than correcting them…usually due to their own fears. With all that a big competition horse has to learn and in the limited time period in which to do that learning some trainers may opt to work around a habit rather than take the time to “fix” it at that point. And yes, horse value does have something to do with it…the trainers get 1/3 of the horse’s winnings at these events plus all the entry fees, cattle fees, hauling costs, trainers hotel and meals etc paid by the owners…so causing an injury to a strong potential winner will not only damage the horse but will hurt both the owner and the trainer financially. For the vast majority of working cowhorses though, those out on ranches working cattle, such shenanigans are never tolerated.

[UrbanHennery]

@coloredcowhorse;5344432

Maybe its a more western thing… horses tie and we don’t excuse one that doesn’t…we fix it so that the horse learns to do this. Same with other things I hear about here. I think ya’ll are a lot easier on your horses that most of us out here who use them for working. Maybe just a difference in perspective.

Wait. I take offense to this. I’m a Western rider, have been all my life, and I have a horse that I don’t tie. I still expect him to stand at the hitching rail, trailer, tree, etc all freakin’ day long if I ask him to, I just don’t tie him with any kind of knot because if he panics it gets ugly really really fast. I loop his 10’ rope around (or hook it to the Tie Blocker) and leave him just like any other horse I own and he’s there when I come back - he just might have a bit more rope than I left him with.

I’m not being tolerant, I’m being smart about preserving the safety of my horse, myself, others around us and my trailer/barn/fence, etc.

It doesn’t make me soft or too easy on my horse. He’s still a working horse and I expect him to behave like one.

[The_Centaurian]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5344905]
For the vast majority of working cowhorses though, those out on ranches working cattle, such shenanigans are never tolerated.[/QUOTE]

For a super riding horse, one with lead changes, safe jumping form, etc., I am willing to tolerate certain manageable shenanigans.

There are probably “dealbreakers” in a cow horse (like fear of cows, lol) that would not be a problem for a show horse.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5344894]
so, if you buy a horse at…age 8, and it’s a confirmed puller, but it is a stock horse…the level of injury will be less because it’s a stock horse?[/QUOTE]

Of course not. But I belive it is far less likely that the 8 yr old puller is a stock horse because in my experience a higher percentage of stock horses learn to tie correctly from the get go. Or, they died learnin’.

ETA: also in my experience, stock breeds have the temperment that more easily lends itself to head confinement than say a Saddlebred. That being said, of the two confirmed pullers I’ve known, one was an Appy born on a ranch in Oregon, and the second is a Saddlebred who was really never taught otherwise. Both tie under most circumstances, but both have trigger issues with their poll that you have to be aware of.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;5344810]
In stock horse land it isn’t likely to get to the point where it can’t be fixed. It is a horse culture which is likely to expect a horse to straight tie on a regular basis from an early age.[/QUOTE]

Thank you…my point exactly. These issues are so much easier to deal with when the horses are foals and so eager to learn things. And don’t weigh 1000 lbs. Working ranch horses get exposed to a great deal more than the average show horse even in western events …and WAY more than the average English style horse does…and at a much earlier age. We can’t adjust everything around them to fit their foibles.

I have what I call my “suitcase handle” for teaching foals to lead. It’s about 10 feet of thick soft cotton rope with the two ends braided together and taped (with the fix anything duct tape) to make a circular rope. I then slide a 4 inch piece of 2 inch PVC pipe over the looped end making a figure 8 out of it with the PVC at the middle. One loop goes over the foals head and rests against his chest while the other end is a butt rope. Baby halter and lead on the foal. Light tug on the halter followed by tipping the PVC “handle” vertically so the rope can’t slide through it and a gentle pull forward using the handle to tighten up the butt rope. Foal gets four things happening…a verbal “walk”, a body language “walk” from the person handling, a light “walk” on the halter and a follow up “walk now” on the butt rope. He has all kinds of time to put it together. Usually takes about 15 minutes for the butt rope to no longer be needed. Same thing works for “whoa” … verbal, stop by handler, light pull back on halter and finally chest rope pull back. Pets and scratches on each successfull time and these babies are leading, without a fight, in an hour. One occasionally will try rearing but a light sideways pull gets them off balance and they have to come down to their feet. No head throwing or flopping themselves onto the ground or any of that stuff.

Similar use of lead rope for tying…single wrap around a hitching rail or post…slight give but no escape. Works like Blocker tie ring…horse gets to move his feet but can’t completely leave…gets away from possibly fearful constraint so doesn’t feel trapped but also never learns that he can just pull back, break things and run off. THAT’s a lesson we never want them to learn 'cause it takes only once for it to stay in their mind and then we are in a “fix it” situation with more potential for injury. Don’t know if they still do or not but King Ranch used to halter break/lead break and tie break their foals by putting a halter on them and then tying them to a donkey…where the donkey went the foal went, where the donkey stood, the foal stood. Since it was another critter and they’d just been weaned they were pretty compliant with the donkey doing the leading. I can say from experience that I’ve never been able to spook a King Ranch raised foal into pulling back on a halter/lead and they will lead into, onto, over, through, under anything you think you can take them to.

Horses out here (not so much now but until maybe 10-15 years ago) were expected to load into the back of a pickup truck with stock wracks on it to go somewhere…not up a ramp…just jump up there. Today they load (saddled and with bridle hanging on the horn) into stock trailers to go to work. They pony with 4-wheelers and cars and trucks (I ponied home my escapee QH/Arab gelding who jumped out of his pen the first night he was here and was at the neighbors about 2 miles down the road in the morning…using a long lead rope out the drivers window…trotted along next to me like a good dog on a “heel”) and other horses. They are used to tarps, slickers, guns, sirens etc. This is a working horse world and it is very very different.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5344894]
so, if you buy a horse at…age 8, and it’s a confirmed puller, but it is a stock horse…the level of injury will be less because it’s a stock horse?[/QUOTE]

No…the potential for injury will probably be close to the same…but the stockhorse has likely had some training early in his life that would make a confirmed puller much less likely to happen…and that training, if there, should make fixing such a problem much easier. IF the horse never had the training to begin with then you have the same issues as if it were a TB or WB or whatever. I will say that IN GENERAL, stockhorses are less reactive and tend to think things through more than the TB’s I’ve been around. This doesn’t mean a TB or WB won’t think things through…some will, some won’t AND the same is true of stockhorses…some will (a higher percentage IMHO) and some won’t.

[Coffee]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5344951]

They are used to tarps, slickers, guns, sirens etc. This is a working horse world and it is very very different.[/QUOTE]

This made me laugh, sorry. What kind of bubble world do you think show horses live in?

[KSAQHA]

[QUOTE=UrbanHennery;5344911]
Wait. I take offense to this. I’m a Western rider, have been all my life, and I have a horse that I don’t tie. I still expect him to stand at the hitching rail, trailer, tree, etc all freakin’ day long if I ask him to, I just don’t tie him with any kind of knot because if he panics it gets ugly really really fast. I loop his 10’ rope around (or hook it to the Tie Blocker) and leave him just like any other horse I own and he’s there when I come back - he just might have a bit more rope than I left him with.

I’m not being tolerant, I’m being smart about preserving the safety of my horse, myself, others around us and my trailer/barn/fence, etc.

It doesn’t make me soft or too easy on my horse. He’s still a working horse and I expect him to behave like one.[/QUOTE]Ditto for me. My current puller will stand tied, but I always use a blocker tie or just wrap the lead around the hitching post. I’ve seen what she is capable of doing when the ‘switch’ flips. She didn’t come to me as a puller - I bought her at 11 mos old, with about 10 days of halter training. I did extensive groundwork with her and she has spent extensive amounts of time standing tied in stalls and to my arena wall. As I previously mentioned, she has always been uber soft, responsive, and sensitive - a joy to train. However, all it took was one incident with a bratty pony, in which she got rattled, she pulled back and didn’t stop until she broke the bull snap on the lead, flipping over. There were a couple of other incidents afterwards, which left me feeling she was determinded to either break free or die trying. Yes, she can be trusted to stand tied 99% of the time…it’s the 1% chance that I have to consider…and I value her enough to consider it. Oh, and I had to laugh at the part about your guy maybe ending up with more rope than you left him with - ditto on that with my mare, as well.

[KSAQHA]

[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5344905]
I have the greatest respect for Teddy and have talked with him on several occasions about my own horses and my goals. Trainers going for big events such as the Snaffle Bit (which is the biggest of the reined cowhorse events and where Teddy has won it 7 or maybe 8 times now) will sometimes get horses in who already have bad habits established…often by owners who don’t know how to train and actually end up reinforcing those habits rather than correcting them…usually due to their own fears. With all that a big competition horse has to learn and in the limited time period in which to do that learning some trainers may opt to work around a habit rather than take the time to “fix” it at that point. And yes, horse value does have something to do with it…the trainers get 1/3 of the horse’s winnings at these events plus all the entry fees, cattle fees, hauling costs, trainers hotel and meals etc paid by the owners…so causing an injury to a strong potential winner will not only damage the horse but will hurt both the owner and the trainer financially. For the vast majority of working cowhorses though, those out on ranches working cattle, such shenanigans are never tolerated.[/QUOTE]Yes, I get that…and I also get where you’re coming from with most of your informative posts. Not everyone on this forum is non-western-horse cultured.

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;5344897]
see, we aren’t talking about people who have raised these horses from babies. We’re talking about horses that ARRIVE with the problem in place.[/QUOTE]

We can’t change the history of any horse…it’s there, it’s done and it won’t change just because we wish they had had better training, handling, whatever. We CAN however, change their future by training them. They may be spookers…so train them HOW to spook so they aren’t dangerous to a rider. They may be pullers so train them that they don’t HAVE to pull. It takes breaking things down into tiny, tiny steps, the more of them the better, and then making sure every step is 100% OK in the horse’s mind before going to the next. It is not fast…I’ve said it takes time and patience and timing and an ability to read just how far you can push before the horse blows. Horses don’t quit learning…they learn something about us every time we interact with them. And they are masters of reading body language…so if you show that you are anxious about a horse that pulled back once…he’ll decide there’s something dangerous about being tied (following your emotional lead), remember he got loose last time…and he’ll go for it again.

I would guess, from 30+ years at this, that 99% of the problems that horses exhibit are owner/handler/trainer caused and can be retrained. The 1% that can’t…dangerous horses as they have no self-preservation instinct and if they will kill themselves they will take you with them at some point.