Absolutely, I believe this as well. I believe this is why TB-people, compared with working cow-horse people, have different levels of tolerance and different expectations. I suspect all are agreed on the ideal and the benefits of a horse that is good to tie. But the importance of it is not agreed. A working ranch horse must tie, or it can’t work. A racehorse can get by without tying (although I suspect that there is a correlation between tying and gate-loading issues.)
Most definitely, it is all about the anxiety. Managing the anxiety has been the key to about 3 years of peace (I ride around 4 times a week, on average, so the horse is regularly worked on this issue.) The core key has been teaching the horse to manage himself. That’s inspired more confidence on his part.
Exactly - completely been down that path as well! As mentioned before, at least 3 times I patted myself smugly on the back that he was “cured.” Oh yeah. :lol:
(Thinking he’s “cured” is really the only time in my own hyper-control of how this horse is managed on the ground that someone or the horse really could get hurt or killed. :no: )
It’s interesting that anyone who has been around my horse for even a short time agrees that his true personality is laid back, the TB version. Anxiety has most definitely come from his human interactions - even though he’s never been “abused,” quite the reverse. He has a tendency to that direction that people inadvertently expanded. And there is an explosive urge in his brain that goes off from time to time. I think the crossed-wires occurred when the natural prey-species spook, somewhat magnified in this individual, was not handled well by the humans. For many years, unfortunately. I believe that when he left track-training at 3 it could most certainly could have been dealt with then, but instead there were 5 more years of repeated explosions and no real re-training effort.
To me, this is the most dangerous option. Seen it, participated, finally I learned better. I agree with coloredcowhorse that step-by-step is the way forward. Time and patience lead to more happiness, whether or not a true cure is ever reached.
Some horses can be reached this way. But if someone is going to try, I feel there must be an exit strategy to end the session if the decision-maker feels it’s too dangerous, or just isn’t truly progress. No human should hold the thought that if they cut the session short the horse is "ruined forever.’ That is the do-or-die attitude that causes much damage. IMO nothing is ‘forever,’ there is always another training strategy to be discovered - eventually.
I agree that ground-tying should be far more standard than it is. A great many TB’s can learn to ground tie, although handlers don’t believe this and don’t try. I find it unfortunate that most horse people don’t learn how to train ground-tying. Including me, I just sort of made up something to get him to stand. It isn’t true ground-tying, he can’t be left more than the time to pop in and out of the tack room - no hanging around talking.
[QUOTE=Coffee;5345152]
Seriously, if you’re at a 3 day event, those horses are very fit and know they will be running crosscountry next day.
I understand fit and well conditioned horses. There was a study done at Colorado State (I think it was) several years back on the calories used by various types of work done by horses. Cutting horses were determined to use, in the 2.5 minutes of competition time, approximately the same calories as a TB running the Kentucky Derby. And cutters may have 2-3 runs in a day (a couple of practice runs and a competitive run) and they may have only a day or two off between so they are pretty fit as well. And a competition cutter/reiner/reined cowhorse is on a diet comparable to any other high level equine athlete.
What I don’t understand (and I really am trying) is the lack of training to control the high level responsiveness in the English type horses. I really have a hard time thinking that TB’s and WB’s are incapable of learning these things (relaxation cues, “spook in place” training etc)…I understand that they have been bred for speed and “fire” but so have Arabs (and I have had plenty of success and seen plenty of really solid Arabs in situations that seem to send TB’s over the edge) and nothing is as spooky/wired as a fresh off the range mustang…he’s truly convinced that everything is going to kill him! And both his flight and fight responses are well honed and he’s willing to use them. TB’s as a breed have been around only maybe 400 years or so, WB’s even less. This isn’t enough time for large scale evolutionary changes in instinctive behaviors so I don’t buy the “they are different from other horses” theory.
I think some of it is an expectation among owners/trainers that they are “different” so they are treated differently (to accommodate the percieved differences) which, in turn, results in horses that behave differently in reality. “We get what we expect” is the short version. I see this a lot…people “expect” that stallions will be wild eyed, dangerous, human eating killers…and are totally blown away when they find those that aren’t (my herd of 8 uncut males, 5 of them breeding age, 3 of them used for breeding for instance that you can safely wander around within and pet and scratch, not get kicked, not get bitten, not get shoved around). I think that we are not very good at suppressing the expression of our expectations…and subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) “tell” the horse what we expect them to do…and then we often reinforce that behavior. For instance, the person who thinks a stallion is dangerous and untrustworthy (just because he is a stallion, without any indication that a particular horse is any of those) will use body language, voice tone, eye connection, etc that shows their anxiety which the horse then picks up on and reflects back…so that the person now sees a horse that is anxious and fretful and feels threatened by the horse not being calm…and it escalates. I don’t know how much of horse x human interaction is influenced or how strongly but have seen enough examples of someone with a nervous approach send a formerly quiet horse right into anxiety attacks…and then seen the whole thing calmed right down by someone who IS aware of their “vibe” and deliberately put out a “calm” message. It is almost eerie sometimes but it is worth seeing…it says to me that this approach can work with horses…and possibly with their people.
Well with my horses, regardless of breed, I have occassion to straight tie them maybe… 2 or 3 times a year.
My current horse ties. He ties in the stall, when he is in a trailer, to the arena wall (generally… with a blocker ring, but when a water hose is involved, it is a training session each and every time :sigh: and I factor that in to my plan).
I cannot walk up to a random post/rail/tree and straight tie him. He will view the structure with great distrust, and when he sees me wrap that rope around, he blows, boogers, and exists out the back. And no, I guess I’ve never seen the point in spending time walking up to various sturdy objects on the property and tying him to them just so he would learn. And therein lies the difference.
I understand fit and well conditioned horses. There was a study done at Colorado State (I think it was) several years back on the calories used by various types of work done by horses. Cutting horses were determined to use, in the 2.5 minutes of competition time, approximately the same calories as a TB running the Kentucky Derby. And cutters may have 2-3 runs in a day (a couple of practice runs and a competitive run) and they may have only a day or two off between so they are pretty fit as well. And a competition cutter/reiner/reined cowhorse is on a diet comparable to any other high level equine athlete.
What I don’t understand (and I really am trying) is the lack of training to control the high level responsiveness in the English type horses. I really have a hard time thinking that TB’s and WB’s are incapable of learning these things (relaxation cues, “spook in place” training etc)…I understand that they have been bred for speed and “fire” but so have Arabs (and I have had plenty of success and seen plenty of really solid Arabs in situations that seem to send TB’s over the edge) and nothing is as spooky/wired as a fresh off the range mustang…he’s truly convinced that everything is going to kill him! And both his flight and fight responses are well honed and he’s willing to use them. TB’s as a breed have been around only maybe 400 years or so, WB’s even less. This isn’t enough time for large scale evolutionary changes in instinctive behaviors so I don’t buy the “they are different from other horses” theory.
I think some of it is an expectation among owners/trainers that they are “different” so they are treated differently (to accommodate the percieved differences) which, in turn, results in horses that behave differently in reality. “We get what we expect” is the short version. I see this a lot…people “expect” that stallions will be wild eyed, dangerous, human eating killers…and are totally blown away when they find those that aren’t (my herd of 8 uncut males, 5 of them breeding age, 3 of them used for breeding for instance that you can safely wander around within and pet and scratch, not get kicked, not get bitten, not get shoved around). I think that we are not very good at suppressing the expression of our expectations…and subtly (and sometimes not so subtly) “tell” the horse what we expect them to do…and then we often reinforce that behavior. For instance, the person who thinks a stallion is dangerous and untrustworthy (just because he is a stallion, without any indication that a particular horse is any of those) will use body language, voice tone, eye connection, etc that shows their anxiety which the horse then picks up on and reflects back…so that the person now sees a horse that is anxious and fretful and feels threatened by the horse not being calm…and it escalates. I don’t know how much of horse x human interaction is influenced or how strongly but have seen enough examples of someone with a nervous approach send a formerly quiet horse right into anxiety attacks…and then seen the whole thing calmed right down by someone who IS aware of their “vibe” and deliberately put out a “calm” message. It is almost eerie sometimes but it is worth seeing…it says to me that this approach can work with horses…and possibly with their people.[/QUOTE]
Doing short bursts of work isn’t the same as the type of lengthy work event horses and endurance horses do.
Honestly, I don’t really know what you’re talking about, especially if you’re basing it on one 3 day event years ago, which is sounds like what you are doing. The vast majority of English horses tie, cross-tie, load, trailer, get ridden beside roads, and perform in all kinds of venues. Eventing and jumping riders aren’t exactly the insecure nervous type of rider or horsemen either.
I’ve seen more scared Western riders than English riders, but I wouldn’t extrapolate to saying that in general Western riders are scaredy cats.
He could have cross-ties snapped to each other in front of him & his lead draped over that. He would stand all day that way.
He could be put on the trailer to hang out during hunt breakfasts.
It wasn’t my place then to tell the owner the horse could/should be retrained or try to do it. It isn’t my place now to tell someone this can be fixed.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;5346289]
That’s the trap a lot of us fall into. There is an episode, and we may say we’re going to train it out of them “some other day”, but we go on subconsciously or on purpose avoiding putting ourselves in that situation again.
Whereas a working cowboy’s reaction would be… “well that won’t do. Son, you’re going to learn to tie today.” and march the horse right over to an appropriate tying situation to train it out. Not everyone has a snub post, or a thinking tree or a safe tie wall with a good strong rope halter available right then and there. And the vicious cycle begins.[/QUOTE]Yes, but this cuts both ways.The typical trainer is in the business to TRY to earn a living (isn’t that the point) and doesn’t always have the time…or patience…to spend working a horse ‘through’ its halter-pulling issue - he/she has horses to start and ride. As stated above, more than likely the ‘training’ simply involves leaving the horse tied to whatever (insert: patience pole, inner tube, pipe rail, arena wall, ad infinitum) to ‘figure’ things out…and around here, that’s the usual fix…tie the horse while working others. Maybe, the horse pitches a few major fits, gets a little skinned up, quits attempting to set back, and survives to see another day…doesn’t guarantee the behavior is extinguished. It more likely means the horse has learned to no longer pull in THAT environment.
I’m quite familiar on how much time can be spent going back to the very beginning, the basics, taking one baby-step at a time, and filling any holes; however, I still believe once a puller, the potential for it happening again is a latent possibility…under the right (wrong) circumstances. I’m certainly not saying it can’t be ‘trained’ out of many, I’m saying there ARE those individuals that will always have the propensity…no matter how long it’s been since the last episode. (not going to list my ‘credentials’…boooring…but I have been around the block a time or two ;)…and this isn’t necessarily aimed at you, SA!)
Hmm. Well, 400 years is more than enough time to select for personality traits unwittingly, shall we say.
So the TB has been bred to be fast, to have “heart” and possibly in there somewhere is a reactive component in the brain that lends them to being silly.
Now, the heart aspect is actually the opposite to the self preservation instinct desired in the cow horse - I don’t know if Arabs are known for heart (they also call it “game” in the ASB world) I think Arabs have been bred to keep their riders out of trouble as well, hot or not.
There is a lot of admiration for heart, but it is somewhat destructive in that they won’t quit, or stop, even to save themselves grievous injury. They have to be pulled up in a race, they don’t stop on their own.
Another theory, which may be without merit. Nonetheless 400 years is no time at all to create a new breed with us humans doing the selection.
I enjoyed reading much of coloredecowhorse’s prose. I like my animals to have manners first, and I deal with probematic behavior in horses as part of my business model.
However, I think the OP wanted to itirate that they don’t wnt to be undermined by someone who knows better than her about tying her horse. We as horseman need to be respectful of each other and individual horse’s issues and quirks.
Why yes, a TB, an arab, an WB, and a QH can all have the same manners and expectations in similiar situations. I find it inappropriate and judgemental for one horseman to be hypercritical of another and negative about someone’s struggles.
Just because a TB is spooky in particular situation does not make it a bad horse, it needs more time and exposure. We might need to unravel a former incident as well.
I do believe that an older horse that has tie issues is a whole different, more dangerous beast than the youngster.
When I first started working with my horse, she had anixety related pullback issues as well.
I have carefully worked through many of the reasons she had for pulling back and I have to say I’ve crossed tied her and it’s been quite some time since she last pulled back.
With that being said, I, also, believe that anxiety pullers are similar to addicts in that they can reform but never fully be cured of the issue. It is my responsiblity as her owner to take the lead and say…there is something out there that can trigger panic and I need to take the necessary measures to make sure she doesn’t hurt herself or others. Whether a person decides to correct the problem with training, blocker tie ring, ground tying or a combination of it all, it’s their perogative and, if everyone is safe, it shouldn’t really matter.
[QUOTE=KSAQHA;5347606]
…doesn’t guarantee the behavior is extinguished. It more likely means the horse has learned to no longer pull in THAT environment. [/QUOTE]
That is very very true! I can tie my pull-back at home in certain places, but the training definitely does NOT translate to every environment. And I don’t believe it ever would with this one. Heck, under the right circumstances he will pitch a pull-back fit when I’m just holding the rope. Which is why I’m a member of PB Anonymous :sigh:
I agree that handlers that don’t understand a breed/type of horse well and are already nervous cause a lot of issues. The question is why such handlers have such a horse - and I think this situation exists far more now than in the past, for a lot of reasons having to do with the radically changing demographics of riders generally.
I agree that “english” riding generally does take a different perspective and is less inclined to confront the behavior. I think a lot of that is very simple - TB’s and WB’s are much larger and far more likely to do themselves a serious injury. These lines are blurring in current times with western horses getting larger (because they have more TB! ) But historically western horses used for ranch work were 750-850 lbs, whereas, generally, TB’s are 1,100-1,200+ lbs. Many exceptions on both sides, of course, but that’s the general population. My eyewitness experience is that the smaller horses were more able to work through a hard-tie without meaningful injury.
I also agree that, although I think the training path is different than it is with more traditional QH’s and ranch horses, TB’s can learn more about behaving than some people think. When I first got my pullback I decided his constant explosions had to end, peacefully, for everyone’s sake. My fellow riders in the eventing barn (mostly TB’s) were appalled that I was gently requiring him to stand in one place with the rope over his neck (not tied.) Simply by putting him back every time he moved away (a bit more to it than that but that’s the basis.) They believed he wasn’t capable of learning this, and that I was cruelly picking on him. A few weeks later they were amazed that he did stay put on his own, and that he was far more relaxed. They all commented on the marked change in his demeanor. At last, someone had told him what it was he was supposed to be doing to keep the world in balance. :yes: And of course, his head wasn’t tied, but he was still required to stay in the spot. Some riders realized they could ask more of their TB’s as well. I had the early exposure to western/ranch riding, had learned to ride in mixed-discipline barns, and had different expectations of what manners any horse is capable of learning, if asked properly. And in this case asking didn’t have to include tying.
I am of the same line of thinking that the species horse, every breed of which is capable of learning to ride in a trailer, live in a stall and perform a shoulder-in, is absolutely capable of learning the self-control to stand quietly. Horses, and imo TB’s in particular impress me as one of the most behaviorally adaptable creatures on the planet. Their obedience to our demands requires more changes in their world view than dogs, by comparison - and they make those changes fairly readily when handled well - that’s just imo. I do see riders and handlers complaining about a behavior like head-tossing when in my view no one is asking the horse for anything different - in a way the horse understands, at least.
Or in other words - horsemanship. I will not say that it is more prevalent in one discipline or the other because in my experience it isn’t. The common rabble are not as good in either camp, the experts have horses doing amazing things in both camps.
(I will remain out of step with the common use of the descriptive term “English” to a general riding style. The nation of England never exclusively owned it, it’s as European as it is English. These days even the saddles often aren’t English - a very great many are German! But I don’t know another term that is as all-encompassing in the way that one is used. )
Breeding for a trait can definitely be done in 3 generations. Looking at the permissive attitudes toward racehorses (that I agree exist) - some of the greats of the past are also known as difficult - Sir Barton, Fairplay (Man O War’s sire,) and others. Would western ranchers have tolerated a horse that only experts could lead, tack, enter the stall with, to enter the breeding pool?
I see a cultural perspective if TB over-reactiveness is viewed as a “change” bred in. No, it’s the natural state. As you say CC, the wild mustang demonstrates that trait fully expressed. The breeding of QH & TWH etc. has bred it out, rather than TB’s breeding it in. TB breeding has not had a priority on temperament. But for the job asked of them good temperament is much more of a requirement for QH & TWH.
There was a stall-cam of Mine That Bird in his Derby year that showed him hanging over the stall door grabbing at every human that came past, just for something to do. Not one person ever corrected him that I saw. Of course ordinary track folk might hesitate to correct a big-name horse with big-name connections, but this reason and others contribute to the general permissiveness. Horses aren’t at the track as pets, they’re all someone’s meal ticket not to be messed with (intended to be a meal ticket, anyway.)
WB’s are not new. They are legacies of some of the most ancient breeding lines in Europe, some going back more hundreds of years before TB’s. They are new only to the New World. I am not an expert but am under the impression that the true old-style European WB had far more concern for temperament as carriage horses. Whereas many of the U.S. version has been liberally infused with TB.
And I believe there is a huge difference in the advisability and the possible outcome based on the horse’s size. Even though the smaller horses are also very strong. My own observation is that a horse that is under 1,000 lbs, as many ranch, Arab and other breeds are, is much less likely to do itself a serious injury. A horse heavier than that has a good chance of a career-ending or life-threatening injury.
Which in my mind is the reason that tying has to be settled while the larger-size horses are young and much smaller. If that window of opportunity is missed, depending on the horse, it may be too dangerous to the horse to train by letting the horse fight it out.
Yes this. If one looks at the horses getting attention by making a fuss, one misses the dozen of others standing quietly around them. Mine is usually the only one in the parking area staying on the trailer when not riding. Plenty of TB’s and part-TB’s are quietly eating their hay while tied to the trailer. There’s always a tendency to see what we expect to see and ignore what doesn’t fit a conclusion we’ve drawn.
That said, there are a collection of amusing videos of 4* horses trying to start their cross-country runs in the trot-up and dragging some BNR’s around. Always fun to watch. :lol:
I’ve got an old pull back mare. I have no idea what happened that caused her to start pulling back. Some days she ties, some days she doesn’t, depends on her mood. Generally she’s ok until you put a saddle or harness on her. If she’s tied, it’s almost guarenteed she’ll sit down. Unsnap her, tighten the girth, resnap her. It’s not a big deal, and after trying for the first couple years to fix her, it’s easier just to live with it. I had her with a trainer who decided she was going to “fix her”. The horse was at the trainer because I didn’t have time to work her, not to fix her peculiarities. The mare won.
This horse is an old saddlebred show horse,. She was bred, raised and trained by the generation that believed that if a show horse stood or flat walked, it wasn’t any count. It works for me too. I realize this is more than most people on this board can even remotely begin to comprehend, but that’s how it was. So this horse knows a saddle or harness = work and work = GO! “Quiet” anything was not a desired trait. When you cracked a whip outside the stall, the horse is expected to be up in the corner, looking alive, climbing the corner of the stall. Look wild. Hard to look/be wild when you’ve been broken down on a snub pole. Again, hard for many people to comprehend. It’s a cultural thing. Some will argue this, but I’m giving the rationale as to WHY some trainers hesitate to do it. Maybe it’s great for a ranch horse that really needs to stand tied for hours. For a horse that doensn’t have to stand that long, might not be the best option.
Most saddlebreds tie fine, this one doesn’t. At 15 or 20, trying to figure out what makes her tick has proved fruitless. She’s retired at an Amish farm, and occaisonally they drive her. I think she may stand tied at the bank after driving a mile or two. Or they might just use the drive thru.
[QUOTE=Coffee;5347448]
Doing short bursts of work isn’t the same as the type of lengthy work event horses and endurance horses do.
True…but are you aware that the warmup for a cutting horse in competition may well be 45 minutes to an hour of loping, practicing rollbacks and such? And that they may do this several days in a row (the Snaffle Bit Futurity for instance, in Reno, is a 10 day event and the horses work almost every day of it).
Honestly, I don’t really know what you’re talking about, especially if you’re basing it on one 3 day event years ago, which is sounds like what you are doing. The vast majority of English horses tie, cross-tie, load, trailer, get ridden beside roads, and perform in all kinds of venues. Eventing and jumping riders aren’t exactly the insecure nervous type of rider or horsemen either.
The one three day event I commented on was an example out of many examples (a high percentage of supposedly well trained horses going bonkers over a golf cart…compared to the horses I’m accustomed to seeing standing tied to a rail in an arena while the tractor and harrow are running 5 feet behind them)…and I think I was reasonably clear (perhaps not since it wasn’t clear to you) that my concern is that many of the threads on here and many of the horses I’ve seen over more than 30 some years (my very first money earning job was walking polo ponies cool…at 11) that are NOT trained to deal with much of what is in the “normal” world. I see and hear riders in essence “tip-toeing around” their horse’s quirks rather than training calm, sensible behavior and ways to handle things. IF TB’s and WB’s are more reactive why not train them to accept more things and to react by doing a “spook in place” reaction rather than panic or bolting or whatever? Why avoid exposure to things and then wonder why a horse reacts badly when it does run across those things…why not expose them to begin with and teach them how to react safely?
[QUOTE=KSAQHA;5347606]
Yes, but this cuts both ways.The typical trainer is in the business to TRY to earn a living (isn’t that the point) and doesn’t always have the time…or patience…to spend working a horse ‘through’ its halter-pulling issue - he/she has horses to start and ride. As stated above, more than likely the ‘training’ simply involves leaving the horse tied to whatever (insert: patience pole, inner tube, pipe rail, arena wall, ad infinitum) to ‘figure’ things out…and around here, that’s the usual fix…tie the horse while working others. Maybe, the horse pitches a few major fits, gets a little skinned up, quits attempting to set back, and survives to see another day…doesn’t guarantee the behavior is extinguished. It more likely means the horse has learned to no longer pull in THAT environment.
I’m quite familiar on how much time can be spent going back to the very beginning, the basics, taking one baby-step at a time, and filling any holes; however, I still believe once a puller, the potential for it happening again is a latent possibility…under the right (wrong) circumstances. I’m certainly not saying it can’t be ‘trained’ out of many, I’m saying there ARE those individuals that will always have the propensity…no matter how long it’s been since the last episode. (not going to list my ‘credentials’…boooring…but I have been around the block a time or two ;)…and this isn’t necessarily aimed at you, SA!)[/QUOTE]
I agree that once a horse has learned a behavior whether it is pulling back or bucking or bolting or even things like opening latches or unbuckling a halter from a neighbor…they know how to do it and given the right set of circumstances may be likely to do it again…especially if there was some major gain for the horse the first time. That gain has to be seen from the horse’s perspective…did he get free from something scarey, get put back in his stall (and out of working and probably fed), get laughter and attention from observers (horses can be hams and know when they get attention this way too). My question is why these behaviors are occuring to begin with…and why are not things set up so that the horse doesn’t learn those things we don’t want him to know? I know that some things are a catch-22. To avoid injury the use of baling twine or breakaway halters comes into play…but the horse learns that he CAN break the twine or the halter when we use these and he gets the “reward” of being free or getting fed or resting or attention or whatever his reward is. Horses trained young to respond to halter pressure EVERY time (and perhaps trained how to spook without pulling) are not going to be pullers…they will be so ingrained to respond to the halter that pulling back would just not be something they would think of doing.
There is a think behaviorists call “one time learning” which is when one single event leaves such an impression the behavior does not need to be taught again. Mostly I would suspect these events are frightening events the subject experiences as a Very Bad Thing…and I would think that pulling back>falling over>really losing your footing>struggling because you are so afraid you will die…would be one of them. Those kinds of events are not taught, they happen. Perhaps for a lot of these horses, they DID tie at one point but one time something spooked them and it left such an impression on them they immediately associated being hard tied with That Horrible Event and they just quit being able to be tied.
[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5350052]
I agree that once a horse has learned a behavior whether it is pulling back or bucking or bolting or even things like opening latches or unbuckling a halter from a neighbor…they know how to do it and given the right set of circumstances may be likely to do it again…especially if there was some major gain for the horse the first time. That gain has to be seen from the horse’s perspective…did he get free from something scarey, get put back in his stall (and out of working and probably fed), get laughter and attention from observers (horses can be hams and know when they get attention this way too). My question is why these behaviors are occuring to begin with…and why are not things set up so that the horse doesn’t learn those things we don’t want him to know? I know that some things are a catch-22. To avoid injury the use of baling twine or breakaway halters comes into play…but the horse learns that he CAN break the twine or the halter when we use these and he gets the “reward” of being free or getting fed or resting or attention or whatever his reward is. Horses trained young to respond to halter pressure EVERY time (and perhaps trained how to spook without pulling) are not going to be pullers…they will be so ingrained to respond to the halter that pulling back would just not be something they would think of doing.[/QUOTE]
And I totally agree with what you’re saying - it’s much easier to teach a baby to stand tied, simply due to its smaller size. After all the halter training is established, if they do test the rope…and it happens…they don’t have the size and bulk to break anything (if tied properly). I’m particularly diligent to make sure once my youngsters are tied firm they aren’t going to break free (I never use twine or breakaway halters. period). That’s why it was especially disturbing when the one mare, who had never offered to pull back from 11 mos to 4 yrs had the initial episode…it set an unwelcome precedent, which is now a trust issue (for me).
I have a horse that pulls back. The first few times I saw him do it, he was spooking at a legitimate scary thing (scared the #% out of me too!) - both on cross-ties and single-tied. He then progressed to doing it to get free. My trainer isn’t comfortable training him to tie given the available posts and whatnot at my barn (no good, strong posts above wither-level, for example), and I’m certainly not going to try it myself. I don’t have a rig to trailer him to a trainer that can do it. If I ever change barns or take up trail-riding beyond just a hack out back I will certainly try to get some training to address the situation. Until then, I just deal using the following strategies:
I use the Blocker tie ring to single tie in his stall. This tie ring comes with me to all shows and any situations where he might need to single tie (including in the trailer in case of an accident)
He ground ties pretty well (but we don’t have grass at my barn, so I haven’t really tested the extent of his obedience)
I cross-tie when there is something solid behind him (grooming stalls and wash racks)
I will occasionally cross-tie in the barn aisle when there is no activity around to give him some good experiences. I’m pretty sure he would be good 99% of the time when cross-tied, but after watching his panicked slipping and near fall during one pull back episode, I decided that I don’t want to risk a major injury when I can just tack up in my stall. The substrate in the aisle is fine under normal circumstances, but a scrambling, shod horse could wind up doing the splits.
This is a really great topic and timely for me. I just moved my mustang from my home barn to my trainer’s for a couple months. Mac will crosstie fine in both sets of my home cross ties (one down by the tack room which is separate from the barn and the other in the barn aisle). Trainer’s place is a different place, though, so I need to start over in this environment. Yesterday I put him in the cross tie area but didn’t tie him while I groomed him. Today I tied one side and held the lead rope, but he kept wanting to turn around to see what was behind him so I took off the cross tie and worked on just standing still and not being wiggly and not trying to turn around. I’ll just start at the beginning again in this environment and work slowly. It didn’t take him long to “get it” at home but there’s a lot more going on at this new place so it may take a bit longer.
[QUOTE=coloredcowhorse;5350034]
True…but are you aware that the warmup for a cutting horse in competition may well be 45 minutes to an hour of loping, practicing rollbacks and such? And that they may do this several days in a row (the Snaffle Bit Futurity for instance, in Reno, is a 10 day event and the horses work almost every day of it). [/QUOTE]
Yes, I’m aware that working horses – English and Western – are ridden almost every day. Loping is not the same as galloping. The kind of work you’re describing will not make a horse superfit.
coloredcowpony is here to tell us English riders how to deal with hot horses, hurray!
I don’t know why you think the threads you see on here are a good respresentation of the English horse world in general, because they’re not. Maybe you’re new to the internet. What’s often presented is a very skewed view, rather than a common sense view. You do crack me up. Many farms have four wheelers and golf courts and the horses don’t go bonkers around them. For the most part Western horses aren’t any better trained than English ones.
In any case, training can’t always trump personality, and it’s naive to think it can.
As mentioned before, at least 3 times I patted myself smugly on the back that he was “cured.” Oh yeah. :lol:
