Pullback Owners Anonymous

[Calena]

I have the good fortune to live near Amish country, so I’ve seen trained working horses. They’ll drive those buggies to the supermarket, full of cars, people, shopping carts, whatever on a busy day. They have their own parking spaces and you’ll see a long row of horses hitched to buggies standing and waiting, covered in flies in the heat. Not one is tied. They never move. I’ve worked with horses purchased and trained by the Amish. They don’t know what treats are, they’ll drop it out of their mouth if you give them one. What they know is to shut up, stand still and do as their told.

FWIW, the Amish around here mostly used OTSTB’s for their buggies. They can get as many as they want for free.

There are horses that they won’t keep because they don’t train as well. Some horses will never be that trustworthy. We amateurs that are willing to work around and with a problem can get some nice horses that maybe aren’t quite perfect. I don’t mind ;).

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=Coffee;5350875]
Yes, I’m aware that working horses – English and Western – are ridden almost every day. Loping is not the same as galloping. The kind of work you’re describing will not make a horse superfit.

Honey, I’m new to neither horses or the internet. And I can guarantee your TB cross country horse cannot keep up with a working ranch gelding in this country…12-14-16 hours a day up and down mountains (not hills…we are talking 3-4000 foot elevation gains/losses) pushing cows around in 90 or 100 degree heat.

And the OP and I were actually having a pretty civilized conversation. I do realize that people often put problems on the internet and don’t talk about those things that are going right. BUT I’ve seen a lot of horses in both English and Western events as well as working type horses not in show situations and I stand by my question…why are so many (not all and maybe not even the majority) English type horses NOT trained in basics such as tying safely and not spooking over relatively normal things going on around them? Again…do breeders not handle and train them as foals? Or are they not trained to these things until they are started (much later in general than the western type of horses)?

You might have the common courtesy of getting a name right if not anything else.

coloredcowpony is here to tell us English riders how to deal with hot horses, hurray!

I don’t know why you think the threads you see on here are a good respresentation of the English horse world in general, because they’re not. Maybe you’re new to the internet. What’s often presented is a very skewed view, rather than a common sense view. You do crack me up. Many farms have four wheelers and golf courts and the horses don’t go bonkers around them. For the most part Western horses aren’t any better trained than English ones.

In any case, training can’t always trump personality, and it’s naive to think it can.

The things one reads on the internet…[/QUOTE]

Have a nice day.

[oldpony66]

[QUOTE=Calena;5350892]
I have the good fortune to live near Amish country, so I’ve seen trained working horses. They’ll drive those buggies to the supermarket, full of cars, people, shopping carts, whatever on a busy day. They have their own parking spaces and you’ll see a long row of horses hitched to buggies standing and waiting, covered in flies in the heat. Not one is tied. They never move. I’ve worked with horses purchased and trained by the Amish. They don’t know what treats are, they’ll drop it out of their mouth if you give them one. What they know is to shut up, stand still and do as their told. .[/QUOTE]

Around here they will tie them, but I also thought that the buggies had a brake they could set. The horses are pretty darned tired by the time they get to Wal-Mart, so they aren’t as likely to drag a buggy with the brake set on it.

OP, I also had a horse that pulled back when I was a teen… in fact she was my first horse. She learned to ground-tie reasonably well, although she sometimes would follow me around like a puppy instead of stand still. Having a really good “whoa” on her helped out tremendously the day she got loose at a show, did a sliding stop from a brisk canter and waited for us to come get her. Had to keep her ON the trailer instead of tied to the trailer at shows, minor inconvenience.

My current pony used to pull back badly if single-tied, and usually only to a trailer. Although I hate bungee-type ties, I got an immensely strong one with a velcro-end (so no snaps to knock him out) and after pulling on that for a while he starting learning to stand. Not an ideal situation, I realize a lot could have gone wrong there, but thankfully it worked out. I know the velcro will give way, because once it did, which is better than a broken neck or halter. Now, we really only have to watch out for having him tied to a trailer while having his girth tightened. Since it’s so specific it’s not really an issue anymore.

[ReSomething]

In answer to your question CC,about English diciplines, I’m only familiar with two trainers bringing up babies. One racing and one ASB show horses. The race guy did it as a sideline (actually his job supported his training biz but . . .) and he just didn’t have the time.

He even said so, a couple of years ago when he backed two fillies and they were in essence feral. He hadn’t had the time to play with them and make them used to being handled, nor was it of importance to him. He really didn’t see farther down the line to the fillies’ future careers, apart from as broodmares.

The colt had been backed the previous year and had had more time - that colt was a biter, and very smart, I recall holding him at the wash rack (which is just what they do, never saw any other racehorse tied fast and I think it is a question of protecting your asset to the nth degree) and he opened his mouth waaaay up and made to bite at the trainer, testing you see, and he did get a pop and a growl. I was acting as groom so a great deal of training in ground manners comes from the groom, which includes getting poked with a fork handle or swatted back with a towel if they are restless during stall cleaning. Some grooms are truly horsemen and others . . . not so much.

The trainer guy would tie the colt fast to the back of the stall but move the fillies to an empty stall down the shedrow. I remember I came late to watch a race and trainer hadn’t gotten anybody to groom at the race, I couldn’t get into the enclosure by then and it was quite the little rodeo to get the jockey up - you see at the barn the trainer had always found a good corner to wedge the colt in for mounting, well, you are expected to mount out in the circle at this track.

Did the trainer change his methods? No. He figured he was one man alone and it fit with his schedule to use the wall at the barn rather than try to get someone to hold, or tie the horse’s head when that would have just been 180 degrees of possible movement. They are young. Too young in my book, I think John Shirrif and the Mosses did a spectacular thing letting Zenyatta wait - she just wasn’t ready and she is still one with a lot of excess energy.

The ASB’s are just now turning three and are being worked. They are expected to stand tied, but only in the stall, they are supervised when in cross ties. They are expected to come out of the stall and into the show ring with flash, fire and brilliance.

The old guy was a lower level competitor - his ground manners leave a lot to be desired but under saddle or in the lines he behaves beautifully, up in the bridle, still has hock action at 24 years old, but the first day we brought him up from grass he basically plowed over my instructor in the stall, walking, worrying, pawing - heck he was walking and pawing in the arena.

He’s been with me a year and has learned better manners in hand - but there is no reward in the ASB world for quiet - even the BOD of the breed organization chides the members for bringing horses in who bounce all over the arena during the strip for conformation, but they do win even if “manners” are judged - gracious, I’ve seen a gorgeous horse sweep the ribbons at a charity show, a junior’s horse, and that mare looked to be ready to break and run for the far horizons the whole time, barely keeping a straight line, snorting, eyes white. Manners are supposed to be paramount for juniors’ and ladies’ horses, but pretty and head turning get marked higher than dull and sensible.

So these are some of the reasons I guess, why some trainers, and there are Western ones out there too, my mare was sold to me Western and one of my good friends bought a little barrel horse who was he!! on four legs, put “performance” first and ability to be a sensible working horse second.

[InsideLeg2OutsideRei]

My name is InsideLeg2OutsideRein and I own a Pullback.

I too did not know it until I moved him (OTTB, my first horse, I had just bought) from a barn with cross ties to a barn with posts to tie to. Luckily his halter broke immediately, but I looked very stupid – “Hi, I just arrived, and now my horse is running loose around your property. Nice to meet you.”

I taught him to ground tie, and he does that very well.

I’m ueber-cautious not to hard-tie my young horse. She doesn’t seem the type, but I don’t want to take any chances.

[OverandOnward]

@coloredcowhorse;5350034

… IF TB’s and WB’s are more reactive why not train them to accept more things and to react by doing a “spook in place” reaction rather than panic or bolting or whatever? Why avoid exposure to things and then wonder why a horse reacts badly when it does run across those things…why not expose them to begin with and teach them how to react safely?

I agree, that’s my wish list as well. Some are trained, some are not, I definitely grant that. Depends on who had them and how they chose to proceed.

However it comes to be, the mature pullbacks are out there - horses that can be improved but that it would be unwise to consider fully trustworthy. More are coming from the same or similar sources. So what then? The only solution I know is owners and careers that will work around it.

I think one of the major reasons that some riders are more tolerant is that they are over the “sooner or later he’s gonna kill ya” thought. These riders/handlers are well aware of the potential for serious accidents when horses are not managed properly. But as demonstrated in this thread, a good many have managed to safely work around a non-tying horse. The horse is usefully employed, the rider may be inconvenienced but they must be satisfied or they would switch to a different horse. Definitely not everyone’s cup of tea, but whatever suits.

But it’s kind of amusing that there can be a stigma attached to such tolerance. That many of us stay in the Anonymous camp, avoiding the raised eyebrows by keeping our horse’s secret on a need-to-know basis.

[fooler]

My name is Fooler - I own one pullback mare and rode a pullback gelding for years.

The gelding was OTTB and would ok being tied. BUUUUTTTTT there were times he would get a look of full terror and pull back with all of his might. Since he was such a lovely fellow we didn’t want to abuse him. So he would stand like a rock with the lead thrown over the rail or threaded, not secured, through the tie ring.

My mare is claustrophobic and when she feels ‘enclosed’ or restricted will just do anything to get free. She is another one who will stand with the lead draped over the rail or through the ring. The only "problem’ is she will follow me unless I tell her to stay.

Next youngster I get will learn the patience tree, now that I have my own trees;)

[coloredcowhorse]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;5352749]
I agree, that’s my wish list as well. Some are trained, some are not, I definitely grant that. Depends on who had them and how they chose to proceed.
I think one of the major reasons that some riders are more tolerant is that they are over the “sooner or later he’s gonna kill ya” thought. These riders/handlers are well aware of the potential for serious accidents when horses are not managed properly. But as demonstrated in this thread, a good many have managed to safely work around a non-tying horse. The horse is usefully employed, the rider may be inconvenienced but they must be satisfied or they would switch to a different horse. Definitely not everyone’s cup of tea, but whatever suits.

But it’s kind of amusing that there can be a stigma attached to such tolerance. That many of us stay in the Anonymous camp, avoiding the raised eyebrows by keeping our horse’s secret on a need-to-know basis. :D[/QUOTE]

Thanks again for giving me info regarding these issues in the OTTB and possibly the “English” world. I think it may partly at least be a truly cultural thing. East/west or English/Western…not sure but certainly there. Interesting that if you read the ads for western style horses one of the things almost always mentioned (esp for young horses) is “ties”…it truly can be a deal breaker if one doesn’t. And (guessing from the few prices mentioned in threads here) ya’ll are paying a lot more for your horses, even ones that are very green or not even started under saddle, that most of us out here do…we pay what we consider to be “good” prices but if I were to spend $20K on a horse he darned well better be well broke to tie, lead, ground tie and a whole bunch of other stuff… in fact, for that price he better be going well under saddle and looking hard at cattle. I think many of the riders in the disciplines I work with are just not going to work around something that is seen as a huge hole in training…they will fix it. One consideration here is that most of us don’t buy horses that are going to stay here forever…they will move on to other riders…maybe younger ones that need a finished horse to learn on or even eventually to become a child’s mount… so our thought is probably also geared toward the potential for sale (and that deal breaker thing) at some future point. Another thing here, in some western states, is that if a horse HAS a behavior problem you are required by law to disclose at sale time…failure to do so leaves you with liability should the problem come up again and damage or injury result. Different worlds…interesting to visit yours. Thanks again too for keeping it civil.

[SmartAlex]

Well I can tell you that after dealing with a pull-back, the colt I raised two years ago learned to tie real well real early. In fact some people on this forum did the “OMG, I can’t believe you expect him to lead/tie/etc at that age”. Well, if he didn’t learn early and well, it would have been a big problem when he got big, opinionated, and high headed. You know how hard it is to find a place to tie a full grown Giraffe, I mean Saddlebred, higher than their head!?! :lol: